Feminism, are women equal yet? (short answer, no!)

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4L USM

05/11/2007 11:39:01 PM · #1

Put this in the rant section but I'm not really ranting here, just opening up a debate and trying to share some knowledge.

There are all sorts of debates about religion, politics, guns, abortion, etc, etc and I haven't seen this topic at all.

Feminist studies have always been something in the back of my mind and last year I finally took a class. I had an amazing professor that opened my eyes to a LOT of things I had never even heard of, and I was conscerned with women's issues. I cannot imagine how little people who don't even care might know. It's been a while since that class and I miss the discussion.

I thought this was a great way to get global perspectives. From the little I've heard about other countries there are places (obviously, like with any topic) that are FAR worse for women than the USA and places far better.

Women still have unequal pay in the US. We have horrible maternity leave and child care, rediculously high domestic abuse cases with inadequat punishment and protection, rapes, murders. Reproduction rights are constantly under attack, gay rights as well (which I consider under the branch of feminism because feminism understands that in order for women to be equal, all minorities must be too... women are half the minorities after all). The list goes on and on.

The media likes to paint feminists as crazy women who hate men, don't shave, are all lesbians, want MORE rights then men, want to live without men, aren't with the times and haven't realized yet that women are "equal". Obviously these stereotypes are completely false and damaging. There ARE feminist extremists, just like there are in ANY group of people. But somehow in the media this has become the "standard" And people buy into it. I myself spent several hours READING articles to my boyfriend before he would agree with me that women ARE still oppressed. Other guy friends I have that do not have this sort of time with me STILL debate me uninformed... even my own mother has argued with me that women are no longer oppressed. Even more upsetting is that people still try to use science and religion to excuse the inequalities that they will admit to. (anyone remember the Harvard Principal incident?)

anyhow, Personal experiences? Information? I would love to talk about this issue.

Nullix

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

05/11/2007 11:54:31 PM · #2

What about some links to look up. This is new to me and I also fall into the whole, "Feminist are against men" thought.

05/12/2007 12:12:51 AM · #3

Oppressed? Gays and illegals yes, but women and other minority groups (which includes me)? No. Do I think not everyone has the same opporunities today? Yes, but I believe that's the result of past oppressions.

Edited for clarity.

Message edited by author 2007-05-12 00:21:46.

05/12/2007 12:27:07 AM · #4

Originally posted by yanko:

While I start to gather my sites as per Nullix's request just wanted to quickly say there are still no laws agaist paying women less for the jobs they do then men. Illustration: teachers and professors. Really bad pay ratios.

Most of my readings have been in text books, magazines, and newspapers and internet sources are not super great so I'm looking right now. :)

05/12/2007 12:34:51 AM · #5

Originally posted by Nullix:

What about some links to look up. This is new to me and I also fall into the whole, "Feminist are against men" thought.

ouch! Is this the part where I say "I don't hate men, most of my best friends are men?" lol.

Well for starters there are all different branches of feminism (liberal, radical, socialist, etc) so they we do not all believe the same thing or agree on the same answers, what we do agree on one thing that there IS a problem. Basically feminists want to end the oppression of women.

Oppression of women in the US is much more subtle and more dificult to point out, much like racial descrimination. LEGALLY racial descrimination is not to exist, but it would take a fool to think it is gone. Same applies to women.

here is the National Organization for Women's website NOW

OOHHH JUST FOUND THIS! It's great, just what I was looking for!!!

Women's Economic Fact Sheet

05/12/2007 12:37:38 AM · #6

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Could it be those bad ratios are partly due to women being a greater risk of working less hours than men (i.e. due to maternity leave and such)? Granted, I haven't researched this at all so maybe this is already taken into account but just curious if you feel this is even warranted as an excuse to pay less.

Message edited by author 2007-05-12 00:39:00.

05/12/2007 12:43:21 AM · #7

Domestic Violence is a HUGE issue in women's rights. I have personal experience with this in my family. There is little to know protection, call the police and they give him a slap on the wrist and he just comes back angry. This isn't just a "personal" " not raised right" problem. It is SOCIETAL. We have a victim blaming society for starters, and as I said before, the legal system does not work well for women on this issue.

VIOLENCE FACTS on Feminist.com
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE on NOW.org

Message edited by author 2007-05-12 00:52:18.

05/12/2007 12:47:39 AM · #8

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
While I start to gather my sites as per Nullix's request just wanted to quickly say there are still no laws agaist paying women less for the jobs they do then men. Illustration: teachers and professors. Really bad pay ratios.

Could it be those bad ratios are partly due to women being a greater risk of working less hours than men (i.e. due to maternity leave and such)? Granted, I haven't researched this at all so maybe this is already taken into account but just curious if you feel this is even warranted as an excuse to pay less.

Women are paid unequally period. And since when is having a baby grounds for LESS pay? That is descrimination. And as for maternity leave, that's a whole problem in itself. We don't HAVE maternity leave, depending on the company a woman gets 3 weeks off on "dissability" plus and sick or vacation time and other than that she is screwed and has no gaurantee of getting her same job back or same pay.

I don't have the EXACTS on this but in Germany I believe women (and men) can recieve 2 (or 3?) years paid maternity leave. Any Germans feel free to correct me. The idea is, government would be aiding in child care anyway why not pay their own mother to raise them. Seems all too logical to ever happen here but there's hoping.

Message edited by author 2007-05-12 00:49:42.

05/12/2007 01:01:03 AM · #9

2 sites I often visit for articles...

Truthout women's section This one compiles articles from all over.

Alternet This one is not specifically about women's rights but has feminist columns and articles from time to time.

05/12/2007 01:07:22 AM · #10

Originally posted by escapetooz:

And since when is having a baby grounds for LESS pay? That is descrimination.

Let me put it a different way. If a guy puts in 2080 hours a year and a woman puts in 2000 hours a year should they both be paid the same (assuming the same job)?

05/12/2007 01:11:22 AM · #11

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Interesting that you mentioned this because it reminded me of noisemaker's photo "Domestic Abuse". It seemed to me some people didn't like it because they felt it portrayed murder and not abuse and making that connection was a turn off. I thought that connection was what made the photo having seen and lived through domestic abuse myself growing up. You're right there aren't enough protection laws out there and the issue is taken way too lightly by society in general.

05/12/2007 01:11:32 AM · #12

SORRY for the barrage of links but once I get started it's hard to stop. I realize now that rants aren't on the front page and I have set myself up for lack of traffic in here (unless some horrible arguements break out! lol) but I'm going on anyway.

The famous "lists". This is really good to help explain the UNSEEN oppressions (or in the case of the articles, privileges) that exist in our society. The original was an essay written by Peggy McIntosh. She set out to study how men have male privileges that they do not realize and realized there was a white privilage too. She wrote an article about this. It got noticed, why, because a white person finally wrote an article talking about white privilege. Unlike the many articles I'm sure were written by minorities on this subject, people stopped and took notice. Later some B. Deutsch, a male, copied this format and used it for male privilege.

I found both of these very helpful.

White Privilege

Male Privilege

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8

05/12/2007 01:19:16 AM · #13

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
And since when is having a baby grounds for LESS pay? That is descrimination.

Let me put it a different way. If a guy puts in 2080 hours a year and a woman puts in 2000 hours a year should they both be paid the same (assuming the same job)?

I understand but I think IF that has any role (which I don't think it does, if you factor in not ALL women are having babies ALL the time) it would be a very small one.

FACT: Women can have the SAME job, SAME qualifications, and SAME hours as a man and still get less pay.
FACT: More women are in underpayed "female" dominated fields.

This is the problem. Another factor for the amount of poverty in women and children... stay at home moms. Scenario: Typical "Model" family. A woman gives up education and career to be a stay at home mom and do the family thing. She is putting in the work (roughly) of 2 full time jobs but is not getting paid for any of it and is not gaining any "work" experience. Meanwhile her husband is off doing years of work, school, what have you, getting promotions, taking care of the financial aspects of the household. They both put in a LOT of work to create that family BUT the woman has nothing "tangible" to show for it. Divorce comes. Sure the wife might get child support and alamony but chances are it's not enough. She is now on her own, no job skills, possibly no house, trying to support her children. Working crappy, underpaid jobs. While the husband is still making all his money and now only has to support himself (save the checks).

This is very, very common. It makes me sick to hear complaints about Alamony and child support. There are exceptions of course, but for the most part, IT MAKES SENSE!

pcody

Canon PowerShot G6

05/12/2007 01:38:44 AM · #14

For us to cease living in a "victim" society, shouldn't we first stop thinking of ourselves as victims?

05/12/2007 01:46:58 AM · #15

I said that it may be "partly due" to women getting paid less. I am of the mindset that all things being equal women are still paid less. I'm just skeptical about how much of a tangible difference that is and whether or not it will be a mute point going forward. I'm pretty sure I've seen some statistics that said women now make up the majority of those in college so in theory they should be more qualified going forward. Not saying women aren't qualified now just that the gap should probably all but disappear sooner rather than later.

Message edited by author 2007-05-12 01:49:23.

05/12/2007 01:53:37 AM · #16

Originally posted by yanko:

here is hoping. But it hasn't been closing much int he past 20 years. I know there are a lot of women in college but that still doesn't mean they won't end up choosing family life or are going for a high paying job. Many end up nurses, teachers, secretaries, still jobs that do not pay enough.

jaysonmc

Nikon D200

Nikon MF 105mm f/2.5 AIS

05/12/2007 01:58:14 AM · #17

Originally posted by escapetooz:

FACT: Women can have the SAME job, SAME qualifications, and SAME hours as a man and still get less pay.
FACT: More women are in underpayed "female" dominated fields.

The thing about statistics is that they are so easy to skew... I'm not going to debate the FACTS, but let me put this out there:

1) The best way for ANYONE to increase salary "substantially" is to switch companies (even for the same job). Has their been a study done to determine if women are more likely to stay in a given position longer than men?

2) In order to get better pay increases one "often" has to be more confrontational with their bosses. Has their been a study to determine if women are more or less likely to be confrontational than man.

3) Have their been studies were the women are the bosses and the associated pay differences. I would suspect you would see the women get paid more in these circumstances (unless men are the only sexist gender).

I don't have answers to these questions. But it is easy to put out FACTS about pay discrepancy in genders, however sometimes the reasoning is more than just a sexist society. I'm not saying there isn't pay differences, obviously there are and some are likely to be sexist but sometimes the true answers don't sell books.

Message edited by author 2007-05-12 02:01:15.

lostisme

Olympus Stylus 720 SW

05/12/2007 01:58:24 AM · #18

but isnâ��t it the womans choice to be a stay at home mom? I mean plenty of people drop there kids off at day care and still have a job or still go to school. So really it kind of makes me think its her own doing for going the stay at home mom route. And yeah society might show being a stay at home mom as the better way to go, but it seems now more then before more moms are using daycare. Just my thoughts, I donâ��t have any experience or research on the subject.

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

05/12/2007 02:03:54 AM · #19

Originally posted by pcody:

For us to cease living in a "victim" society, shouldn't we first stop thinking of ourselves as victims?

I'm not sure what this is in reference to? so I have 2 general responses.

Saying women are oppressed does not make them victims. To add to this, the popular "stop the whinning and get over it, don't be a victim" (and I'm not sure if this is what you said but it's common enough that I'll address it anway) argument is really rediculous. You can't fix something by IGNORING it. Which is the underlying message of this statement. Overcoming oppression is not about whinning and asking for handouts, it's about spreading knowledge and making changes so that the oppression ENDS.

If this is in reference to my comment with domestic abuse and that this is a victim blaming society... then yes, women ARE victimes in those cases. No different than a vicitim of a robbery. This is what I mean by victim blaming in the case of women. You don't blame a person for getting robbed but many people (friends, family, cops, lawyers, EVEN JUDGES! ) BLAME women for molestation, rape, and abuse with assuptions like "she was teasing" "she was asking for it". It is utterly rediculous. You don't say to a shop owner that just got broken into "hey, stop being a victim!" so why is it ok to say it to a battered women? Women need help. Those situations provide little help and support and even shame.

That's a big thing. SHAME. You are never ASHAMED of being robbed but there is a stigma on abuse victims because of this blaming. that is why so many cases go unreported.

It is seriously F***ed up. For lack of more eloquent words.

TechnoShroom

Canon EOS-30D

05/12/2007 02:05:09 AM · #20

Originally posted by jaysonmc:

The thing about statistics is that they are so easy to skew...

And take into consideration that women may join and leave the work force more than males or may have delayed entering the workforce until a much later age.

05/12/2007 02:11:58 AM · #21

Originally posted by jaysonmc:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

FACT: Women can have the SAME job, SAME qualifications, and SAME hours as a man and still get less pay.
FACT: More women are in underpayed "female" dominated fields.

The thing about statistics is that they are so easy to skew... I'm not going to debate the FACTS, but let me put this out there:

1) The best way for ANYONE to increase salary "substantially" is to switch companies (even for the same job). Has their been a study done to determine if women are more likely to stay in a given position longer than men?

2) In order to get better pay increases one "often" has to be more confrontational with their bosses. Has their been a study to determine if women are more or less likely to be confrontational than man.

3) Have their been studies were the women are the bosses and the associated pay differences. I would suspect you would see the women get paid more in these circumstances (unless men are the only sexist gender).

I don't have answers to these questions. But it is easy to put out FACTS about pay discrepancy in genders, however sometimes the reasoning is more than just a sexist society. I'm not saying there isn't pay differences, obviously there are and some are likely to be sexist but sometimes the true answers don't sell books.

There is a difference between a SEXIST societ and an oppressive one. Oppression is much more subtle... read the privilege lists. It is soo soo complicated that I didn't want to go into theories and just stayed with facts. Society is all intertwined. Obviously it is never just one fact but many many factors. The facts just illustrate that we STILL have a male dominated society.

Here is an example... teachers pay more attention to male students, are more likely to call on them when their hands are raised, and more likely to praise them with "neutral" and encouraged terms such as "smart" "Leader" etc and girls with more female praises like "cute" and "nice".

May not seem THAT bad but tie it in with stereotypical male/female roles that are hammered into a child's head day in and day out, toys (girls get dolls and cooking sets, boys build thing and have trucks) with corresponding commercials to show this. TV and movies, damsels in distress, heroic males... the freakin womens channels are nothing but women getting stalked, beaten, raped, killed going insane or starving themselves. What I'm trying to say is IF women aren't aggressive, it's because through MANY society factors they have LEARNED not to be. It is not becoming. Think... DEVIL WEARS PRADA. If that was a MAN as the boss he wouldn't be a bitch or a hag, or whatever you might say to describe the Streep character, he'd be a business man, a dedicated worker, etc.

See where I'm going?

05/12/2007 02:17:07 AM · #22

Originally posted by lostisme:

This point is made a lot. Here is the thing. That may be the case but moms STILL have all stay at home mom responsibilities. More and more women are going into the work force but men are not coming into the domestic area as rapidly. Basically the majority of women that work are doing double duty because they are still seen as maintainer of the household, regarldess of how many hours they work. This can be exhausting not to mention, you still don't have as much time to focus on career.

It IS a choice but it's not an easy one to make and there are lots of societal pressures couples with the already mentioned LACK of good child care aid and maternity leave. And it's a choice a husband and wife make together. He is agreeing to support her while she supports the household. When the divorce comes it is unreasonable to leave her with nothing after this partnership.

EDIT TO ADD: Why is that a choice a MOTHER has to make... family or work, that a FATHER does not? As much as we THINK our society has equalized out, it certainly hasn't. There are a couple good points about this on the male privilege list. Either way the mother has guilt on her back. If she stays at home she is lazy, not applying herself, etc, If she workds she take son double duty and gets the "you aren't spending enough time with the kids" guilt. Fathers receive significantly less of this kind of guilting... I'd venture to say almost none unless he's a workaholic.

Message edited by author 2007-05-12 02:19:48.

05/12/2007 02:27:19 AM · #23

Something about CHOICE.

Choice is not just about the availability of the choices, it is about the consequences of the choices. As I said, a woman has consequences no matter which way she goes ont he family issue.

SAY I CHOOSE to be a construction worker. There are no laws against it. The option is TECHNICALLY there. But if I do happen to get the job (which I wouldn't, I can barely get photo assistant jobs because men think I can't carry their equipment) think of the conseuences. Ridicule at work, sexual harrassment, judgements from female peers, judgements on my work and work ethic that would be much harsher than if I were a man.

Choice not always as easy as "can" or "legal" choices are limited and come with consequences. Consequences that are a result of oppression and an unjust society.

rinac

Pentax K20D

Pentax SMC-F 50mm f/1.7

05/12/2007 02:34:45 AM · #24

Originally posted by escapetooz:

EDIT TO ADD: Why is that a choice a MOTHER has to make... family or work, that a FATHER does not? As much as we THINK our society has equalized out, it certainly hasn't. There are a couple good points about this on the male privilege list. Either way the mother has guilt on her back. If she stays at home she is lazy, not applying herself, etc, If she workds she take son double duty and gets the "you aren't spending enough time with the kids" guilt. Fathers receive significantly less of this kind of guilting... I'd venture to say almost none unless he's a workaholic.

Bless you. I've lived with this dilemma for the last 16 years. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.