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DPChallenge Forums >> Business of Photography >> ever feel taken advantage of ????
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12/22/2010 12:37:35 PM · #1
I have an acquaintance who's family portraits I did about a year ago.. She of course had all these dillusions of grandeur re: the giant size prints ON canvas she was going to order so I of course, took a little extra time and edited more images then I normally would for her to proof.. I even allowed her to keep the proof book, for free.. So, time goes by & NO ORDER from her.. Then she emails me to explain money is really tight, can they order some 5x7's for mothers day.. Sure, I extended a 25% discount on the prints and I think she ordered like 5 of them..
So, here we are, 3 days before xmas and she wants 10 5x7's.. I quote her the price the same as it was before and she says to me, "can't you just order me some prints from walgreens"..??? I guess thinking that due to their small fee, mine would be less also.. So, I just had to do the hardest thing I've had to do when it comes to trying to make this a busines.. I had to flat out tell her NO.. Why #1 would I want crap prints of my work floating around out there, and #2, why should I give her my hard work for NOTHING.. I spent countless hours on these images and paid an assistant to help me do the shoot which took a 40 minute drive to begin with just to get there.. All for nothing.. Dang, sometimes I feel like no one will ever value what I'm doing.. I would NEVER ask someone to give me their work for free.. NEVER.. I'm just godsmacked right now over this..

How do you all deal with this.. I guess I don't really care about her and the fact that she's basically trying to rip me off.. I all of a sudden have this realization that no matter how good the images come out, it's really only VALUED by me.. Is it because I created it ??? This sucks..
12/22/2010 12:41:08 PM · #2
You are not alone.

//www.xtranormal.com/watch/5709401/

Made by one of our members: idnic
12/22/2010 12:45:14 PM · #3
As someone also starting a photography business, I do have one rule, and that is no tickie, no shirtie. Whether they pay up front or the day of the shoot, or when they come to collect the images, there has to be an exchange of money or no images. For a shoot involving an assistant, I'd ask for a deposit to cover costs, in the event they flake out, at least you won't be out of pocket for expenses. I also have them sign an agreement explaining editing, pricing, and things not covered by the cost of the shoot such as extra prints. It may sound hardass but it also makes it a professional situation where the parameters are clearly drawn.
12/22/2010 01:06:31 PM · #4
I'm thinking about finally starting to do some paying work.. However, I think I'll target the people who are willing to pay, as a matter of a fact, I think my major advertisement line will be "I cost twice as much, come see why"..
12/22/2010 01:07:47 PM · #5
I remember my barber had a sign up that said, "We must ask for payment from our friends because we found our enemies don't do business with us."
12/22/2010 01:14:58 PM · #6
Business is business ! No room for favours - pay up or you dont get the goods would be my view of it.

I learned a few years ago not to do any 'favours' for people - Back in 2005 I was asked by my son-in-law's sister if I would take the photos of her wedding. I agreed and said I did not want any payment but a few drinks at the reception would be good enough for me. Well I did the photos and when the reception came I never saw a single drink from them (I had heard they were 'careful' with money!). Not best pleased with their attitude. I then spent countless hours doing the editing. My son at the time had a gilfriend who worked at a photo shop so she kindly printed off some proofs for me. I handed them over and told them the price, no mark-up at all, they were getting them printed and discounted by my son's girlfriend. I could not believe it when I heard them say 'that's a bit expensive'. So, allthough I have been asked several times to do photo shoots for other member's of my son-in-law's family I refuse. Once bitten was enough for me :-)

Message edited by author 2010-12-22 13:15:23.
12/22/2010 01:58:44 PM · #7
Originally posted by MrsBillyJack:

...I all of a sudden have this realization that no matter how good the images come out, it's really only VALUED by me.. Is it because I created it ??? This sucks..

Obviously, that's not true since she did want the photos. Maybe she's just low on cash -- a lot of people are right now. On the other hand, maybe she's a tightwad at heart. Is she wealthy? Rich people are often the biggest tightwads. :)

Don’t get down on yourself. Take this as a learning experience and move on. Keep in mind too that successful photographers generally charge a sitting fee for engagements such as this, especially if they need to bring along other paid help.


12/22/2010 03:31:46 PM · #8
There are simply too many 'photographers' in the market today. Everyone who owns a digital camera wants to sell their services. Most of the newcomers I know in the market are selling their work way too cheap or giving it away. I know multiple photographers who are doing weddings for $250 or $300 (less in some cases) and simply giving their clients a CD with the high resolution images. That is hard to compete with. It's difficult to convince someone that you might possibly produce better work than the kid down the street.

One of the things you might do when trying to compete with these people is have your clients ask those photographers these questions:

1. What kind of education in photography do you have?

2. What professional organizations are you a member of?

3. Do you have a studio?

3. Show me your commercial client portfolio...

4. Do you have backup equipment in case your main gear fails?

5. Are you a member of the Chamber of Commerce?

6. Is photography your full-time job?

Serious photographers will have adequate answers to all of these questions. Fly-by-night people usually will not.
12/22/2010 03:41:01 PM · #9
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

There are simply too many 'photographers' in the market today. Everyone who owns a digital camera wants to sell their services. Most of the newcomers I know in the market are selling their work way too cheap or giving it away. I know multiple photographers who are doing weddings for $250 or $300 (less in some cases) and simply giving their clients a CD with the high resolution images. That is hard to compete with. It's difficult to convince someone that you might possibly produce better work than the kid down the street.

One of the things you might do when trying to compete with these people is have your clients ask those photographers these questions:

1. What kind of education in photography do you have?

2. What professional organizations are you a member of?

3. Do you have a studio?

3. Show me your commercial client portfolio...

4. Do you have backup equipment in case your main gear fails?

5. Are you a member of the Chamber of Commerce?

6. Is photography your full-time job?

Serious photographers will have adequate answers to all of these questions. Fly-by-night people usually will not.


To be fair though, many of those have no impact on image quality...

I can go into just about any mall in the US and there's a studio in there, and 90% of the time the images make me want to vomit... Turns out that despite having every one of your six items above, they still can't produce a good image, and they really aren't delivering on the level I'd want.

No, instead I feel that the only valid question is #3 - Show me your work - as virtually none of the other things are really relevant to quality...

And, as an additional thought: Professionals are in it for the money, artists are in it for the art - I would strongly prefer someone who's passionate and will give me one excellent piece of artwork, rather than someone who can give me 20 decent shots to choose from.
12/22/2010 03:42:41 PM · #10
Originally posted by coryboehne:


To be fair though, many of those have no impact on image quality...


True, but they all say a lot about the person who is doing the work.
12/22/2010 03:43:36 PM · #11
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Originally posted by coryboehne:


To be fair though, many of those have no impact on image quality...


True, but they all say a lot about the person who is doing the work.


What's that? That they have a shit-ton of overhead that you'll need to help cover?

ETA: :)

Seriously though, I see many of those as just being overhead (professional memberships, chamber of commerce, studio (if you don't want studio shots))...

The backup gear, is of course, very necessary, and there is a certain amount of validity added by those things, but they do not guarantee satisfaction in any way..

Message edited by author 2010-12-22 15:46:44.
12/22/2010 03:45:52 PM · #12
Originally posted by coryboehne:

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Originally posted by coryboehne:


To be fair though, many of those have no impact on image quality...


True, but they all say a lot about the person who is doing the work.


What's that? That they have a shit-ton of overhead that you'll need to help cover?


No. It helps differentiate the fly-by-nighter from the professional photographers who ultimately demand more than $300 to cover your wedding and give you a CD with the photos.
12/22/2010 03:49:07 PM · #13
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Originally posted by coryboehne:

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Originally posted by coryboehne:


To be fair though, many of those have no impact on image quality...

True, but they all say a lot about the person who is doing the work.

What's that? That they have a shit-ton of overhead that you'll need to help cover?

No. It helps differentiate the fly-by-nighter from the professional photographers who ultimately demand more than $300 to cover your wedding and give you a CD with the photos.

Credentials are bullshit. Show me a decent product.
12/22/2010 03:50:00 PM · #14
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Originally posted by coryboehne:

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Originally posted by coryboehne:


To be fair though, many of those have no impact on image quality...


True, but they all say a lot about the person who is doing the work.


What's that? That they have a shit-ton of overhead that you'll need to help cover?


No. It helps differentiate the fly-by-nighter from the professional photographers who ultimately demand more than $300 to cover your wedding and give you a CD with the photos.


But, again, I do think you're being a bit unfair to call everyone without the trappings "Fly by night" which implies a rip-off con artist.

Just because they don't have the credentials, or the studio - doesn't mean that they can't turn out stunning work - I think their portfolio and a reasonable agreement that ensures you don't pay until you're satisfied is a fine solution for non-critical shooting (normal portraits etc..)

The truth is that I've hired two pro's in the last few years, and both were horrible disappointments, I really could have done better work (and in one case did do better work) with my fracking G9 P&S.... And they both had all the credentials in the world, including 20+ years of being in town and in business in the same location...
12/22/2010 03:51:07 PM · #15
Originally posted by Strikeslip:


Credentials are bullshit. Show me a decent product.


This is why there are a ton of photographers shooting weddings for $300. They can produce a decent product. Or at least they have convinced their client that they can.
12/22/2010 03:53:11 PM · #16
Originally posted by MrsBillyJack:

Dang, sometimes I feel like no one will ever value what I'm doing..


And they won't until you make them.

Here's the thing... if your brother is good with cars, do you go to the Lube place and get an oil change or get your brother to do it?

Do you hire a professional lawn guy or hire some kid to cut your grass.

People are cheap. They will look for the cheapest solution. It's up to you to assure them you aren't the cheapest solution...
12/22/2010 03:53:46 PM · #17
Photography has forever changed as a business. It used to be an equipment intensive field and the cost of proper equipment kept the average person out. That is no longer true and prices have concordantly dropped. That's not to say there are lots of people with no business selling their work trying to do so, but the prices that could be demanded ten years ago will likely never be attained by all but a select few (and those people could have charged more ten years ago as well).

It's a fact of life.

Ask yourself this. How much do you think a photographer should be compensated per hour of their work (including all work)? $30? $50? $100? If the number is high, ask yourself why? Is there lots of schooling required? Lots of expensive equipment? Specialized knowledge? Risky environment? The honest answer to all those is "no" for the most part. (Yes, the equipment costs money, but I'm talking expensive in a general business sense, not just limited to photography).

Message edited by author 2010-12-22 15:54:42.
12/22/2010 03:55:08 PM · #18
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Originally posted by Strikeslip:


Credentials are bullshit. Show me a decent product.


This is why there are a ton of photographers shooting weddings for $300. They can produce a decent product. Or at least they have convinced their client that they can.

$300 for a wedding falls into the "to good to be true" category, though. They will probably get what they pay for.
12/22/2010 03:59:14 PM · #19
Originally posted by Strikeslip:

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Originally posted by Strikeslip:


Credentials are bullshit. Show me a decent product.


This is why there are a ton of photographers shooting weddings for $300. They can produce a decent product. Or at least they have convinced their client that they can.

$300 for a wedding falls into the "to good to be true" category, though. They will probably get what they pay for.


It all just goes back to the original poster's dilemma of dealing with a customer who didn't want to pay anything for the work. It's VERY HARD to convince a client that your work is 'worth' more than anyone elses. Especially when they are comparing your $5 print price to a $0.29 print from Walgreens. I have had instances myself where I was faced with this same issue. The simple response is "Walgreens won't go out and make the photo for you."

12/22/2010 04:01:18 PM · #20
Originally posted by Strikeslip:


$300 for a wedding falls into the "to good to be true" category, though. They will probably get what they pay for.


And those $300 weddings shoots are accompanied by a lack of wedding planner and tend to be a bit trashy on the decorations.

I don't want to shoot those weddings. If another photographer wants to do it, be my guest. You're not ruining my business, just "taking out the trash".
12/22/2010 04:05:54 PM · #21
Originally posted by Strikeslip:

$300 for a wedding falls into the "to good to be true" category, though. They will probably get what they pay for.

My niece and nephew each used the same photographer for their respective weddings. I took my camera and got some great candids tooling around, some that were as good as what the pro shot, but I watched the pro in action and realized he worked extremely hard all day -- much harder than I would want to work. He had great skill, too, at getting groups together, making everyone comfortable, etc. So I had some lucky photos, but he provided what the newlyweds wanted: a full record of their wedding day from start to finish, some hundreds of photos, with everyone looking their best.
12/22/2010 04:07:58 PM · #22
There a lot of people out there who can't wrap their heads around a good photo versus a FaceBook snap. It's all the same to them. I think they just don't know any better. But I can't really make judgement, as I've never had to deal with that type. Whenever I shoot for anyone it's because they already realize I'm totally awesome.
12/22/2010 04:08:28 PM · #23
Originally posted by Strikeslip:


Credentials are bullshit. Show me a decent product.


Boy, you're really good at distilling things... That's what I was trying to say when I wrote that book in this thread...
12/22/2010 04:09:48 PM · #24
Originally posted by coryboehne:

Originally posted by Strikeslip:


Credentials are bullshit. Show me a decent product.

Boy, you're really good at distilling things... That's what I was trying to say when I wrote that book in this thread...

What you meant to say was, "ditto" ;-P
12/22/2010 04:12:46 PM · #25
Originally posted by Strikeslip:

Originally posted by coryboehne:

Originally posted by Strikeslip:


Credentials are bullshit. Show me a decent product.

Boy, you're really good at distilling things... That's what I was trying to say when I wrote that book in this thread...

What you meant to say was, "ditto" ;-P


Again, your effectiveness at succinctness is rather impressive..
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