Throwing up my hands - DPChallenge Forums

Samsung Galaxy S21, S21+, S21 Ultra

11/12/2012 04:57:36 PM · #1

I've been trying to build a business around editorial/headshot/advertising type photography in the Atlanta market and I just don't see it happening. I haven't quit my day job but I desperately want to. I've been shooting my daughter a lot (4.5 months) -- photosfromdad.com -- and I'm thinking about making a switch over to family portrait photography and focusing on the medium to high end ($500 to $1500 per client).

I didn't have the confidence to do it before because I had somewhat of an aversion to natural light, but after shooting mostly natural light with my daughter I'm starting to enjoy it and think that I could do something with it. Previously I was shooting almost exclusively in a studio environment but that environment bores me for family stuff.

There's a park around the corner from where I live and I was there on Sunday and there were at least five other photographers there shooting families. The market must be huge and I was just thinking -- I need to get in on that because the "corporate photographer" thing isn't moving an inch.

What say you? Should I make the leap?

Message edited by author 2012-11-12 16:58:25.

Bear_Music

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

11/12/2012 05:02:13 PM · #2

Only if you have a minimum of 6 month's cushion to pay your family's expenses during the transition; hopefully more. When *I* made the leap into professional photography I was single, which helped a lot :-)

Ann

Olympus OM-D E-M1

Olympus 12-40mm f/2.8 Pro

11/12/2012 05:23:14 PM · #3

Have you figured out why the corporate photography gig isn't working? Looking at your website, your problem doesn't seem to be lack of ability. Is whatever's holding you back on the corporate front going to be different in the family photography area? Have you written a business plan yet, for either venture?

Sorry, I don't have any answers, other than encouraging some business oriented introspection and research.

Scrolling through your daddy blog is like watching a kid grow up in reverse. Nice stuff. But so's your commercial stuff.

MinsoPhoto

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

11/12/2012 05:38:26 PM · #4

Originally posted by kgeary:

I've been trying to build a business around editorial/headshot/advertising type photography in the Atlanta market and I just don't see it happening. I haven't quit my day job but I desperately want to. I've been shooting my daughter a lot (4.5 months) -- photosfromdad.com -- and I'm thinking about making a switch over to family portrait photography and focusing on the medium to high end ($500 to $1500 per client).

I didn't have the confidence to do it before because I had somewhat of an aversion to natural light, but after shooting mostly natural light with my daughter I'm starting to enjoy it and think that I could do something with it. Previously I was shooting almost exclusively in a studio environment but that environment bores me for family stuff.

There's a park around the corner from where I live and I was there on Sunday and there were at least five other photographers there shooting families. The market must be huge and I was just thinking -- I need to get in on that because the "corporate photographer" thing isn't moving an inch.

What say you? Should I make the leap?

One thing I realized as I met and became friends/acquaintances with many of the "photographers" that I ran into all the time was many were just shooting friends and family and/or charging $20-50 for an entire cd. I feel your pain but I would be very careful making the leap. I have been struggling for a few years now trying to build up business but most people don't want to pay anyone anymore. And being a single dad, working 40+ a week plus being on call and unavailable for 4 months out of the year I am not sure traditional photography will ever pan out so i am looking into alternate endeavors. Best of luck with whatever you do though.

11/12/2012 05:49:16 PM · #5

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I won't quit until there's an income overlap or I'm close enough to justify it.

11/12/2012 05:53:02 PM · #6

Originally posted by Ann:

Thanks Ann. Umm, I just don't know how to get the clients I guess is the truth. I know how to market to consumers, but commercial photography is B2B and convincing business owners that it's a good investment in this economic climate hasn't worked out so well.

And I live up in the suburbs, I'm not in the actual city. So I"m not conveniently located to the big businesses. Everything around me is a small business and they're not exactly killing it at the moment.

I do however live in one of the wealthiest suburbs in the Southeast. The recession hit here, but people are still driving their expensive cars, living in huge houses, and so on. The movie theaters are packed -- it doesn't "look" like a recession around here. That spells good for a consumer-focused photography business.

toddhead

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

Canon EF 24-70 2.8L II

11/12/2012 05:54:55 PM · #7

Originally posted by MinsoPhoto:

I am in total agreement with this statement. I am one of those photographers... I tend to shoot my friends for next to nothing.

Also, if you take a quick view of any local craigslist site you will see that there is a multitude of photographers willing to shoot for next to nothing. Some are horrendous, but some are quite good. The competition is fierce now that amazing digital cameras are cheap enough for almost everyone.

All that being said, I looked at your site and I think you can be one of those photographers who can command a good price. You just need to get more diversity in your portfolio. Once you do that and get some business rolling in I think you will be able to seriously consider doing it full time.

Ja-9

Nikon D750

11/12/2012 06:10:20 PM · #8

Really nice stuff...do you have any other friends that you could photograph to add more picture to your portfolio? (I know more "freebie/give aways") but it does build a portfolio...

Also are you on Pinterest? It's a great source for "ideas"...I have a large folder of Baby Photo Ideas...keeps the brain looking for opportunities...

11/12/2012 06:13:36 PM · #9

Originally posted by toddhead:

Originally posted by MinsoPhoto:
One thing I realized as I met and became friends/acquaintances with many of the "photographers" that I ran into all the time was many were just shooting friends and family and/or charging $20-50 for an entire...

I am in total agreement with this statement. I am one of those photographers... I tend to shoot my friends for next to nothing.

Also, if you take a quick view of any local craigslist site you will see that there is a multitude of photographers willing to shoot for next to nothing. Some are horrendous, but some are quite good. The competition is fierce now that amazing digital cameras are cheap enough for almost everyone.

All that being said, I looked at your site and I think you can be one of those photographers who can command a good price. You just need to get more diversity in your portfolio. Once you do that and get some business rolling in I think you will be able to seriously consider doing it full time.

Thanks, right now I'm trying to figure out what to avoid. I don't think I'll be successful aiming at the swiss army knife of family portrait photography businesses like it seems everyone is prone to do. "Hey I shoot weddings, newborns, business executives, families, and pets!"

I'd rather just do one thing really well. Maybe two. I need to narrow my target market and find out how to differentiate a little bit and go from there. I'm considering in-person sales and aiming for mostly wall prints and album type products versus small prints, discs, etc.

Message edited by author 2012-11-12 18:13:54.

Olympus 12-40mm f/2.8 Pro

11/12/2012 06:14:28 PM · #10

Originally posted by Ja-9:

Yes, yes. Pinterest is awesome for that!

smardaz

11/12/2012 06:28:31 PM · #11

Originally posted by kgeary:

Umm, I just don't know how to get the clients I guess is the truth.

I don't have much advice but what I do know is that when it comes to making money, the old adage often holds true, 'it's not what you know but who you know'
In this regard I would think the key word is networking, getting on linkedin if you're not already might be a good thing.
Do you know anyone with a marketing business? I get headshot jobs from my brothers marketing business when he needs a client to get shots for a website or flyer

Message edited by author 2012-11-12 18:29:16.

Brent_S

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 24-70 2.8L II

11/12/2012 06:38:59 PM · #12

Best of luck to you Kevin. I am only recently putting myself in the same position as you in wanting to transition out of my current business and into photography for at least some income. I am finding it extremely difficult to give the photography the attention it needs when I am dealing with the daily hassles of the business I am already in though. I wish I could devote my time 100% to photography for six months as Robert suggests to increase my chances of being successful with it. But that's just not possible.

I'll keep an eye on this thread and offer some insight if I can at some point. I'm pretty much useless to you right now though :P

Again, hope things go well for you. The work you did with your daughter is great! :)

Ann

Olympus OM-D E-M1

11/12/2012 06:54:25 PM · #13

Originally posted by kgeary:

I'd rather just do one thing really well. Maybe two. I need to narrow my target market and find out how to differentiate a little bit and go from there. I'm considering in-person sales and aiming for mostly wall prints and album type products versus small prints, discs, etc.

I think you have the right idea. I don't know much about starting a photography business, but I do know about other businesses, and a good way to "get into the business" is to find a niche that is underserved, and fill that niche. Once you're in the door, it's easier to expand outwards.

You might also consider taking a business class or two from the local community college. Marketing, writing a business plan, that kind of thing. You have the photographic chops to be successful in the areas that you're trying to get into. You just need to figure out how to build a business from that.

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

11/12/2012 07:25:26 PM · #14

Throwing up in your hands will NOT help your business - in fact it can actually turn people off. Trust me.

eta: oops, sorry. Misread the topic. Nevermind.

Message edited by author 2012-11-12 19:25:59.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

11/12/2012 07:36:55 PM · #15

As with any business, it takes time to gain traction. Think in terms of years, not months.

In addition to competence, a key to making it as a corporate photographer is availability; that is, being able to take on more than night and weekend jobs. That space is a lot less crowded than the park.

In the long run, success is about establishing and maintaining relationships. You might get an opportunity once for any number of reasons (the regular shooter wasn't available, the last one sucked, whatever). If you do a good job, you might get the opportunity again (or maybe not...maybe the regular one might be available the next time). The thing is, if you stay in touch with the person who hired you and follow up with the six months and three months out from the next event, if they don't call you, it won't be because they forgot who you are. If you can shoot something three times, you should own that event, losing it only if the event fails (or if you can't be in two places at once and have to sacrifice it). After three or four years, if most of your work isn't repeat business, you are dropping the ball somewhere in the relationship management area.

One thing that contributed to my success is not being a "salesman", but being a problem solver. I learned early on that if I ever put myself in a position for someone to think or ask, "what are you selling?", I was pretty much screwed with that prospect. When I took the approach of "I don't know if I can help you the same way I helped so-and-so, but I'd like to see if there's any way I can be of service to you" I did pretty well. "No obligation, no pressure. Let's just take a look at where you are, where you want to be, and see if there's any way I can help you get there. If I have something that makes sense, great! If not, maybe you know someone else who I might be able to help."

Over the past 25 years, I've found this approach to work well with any product or service, including photography. When conversations turn away from price to focusing on the actual work, you are moving into problem-solving, relationship-building territory, separating yourself from the low-ballers.

You're on the right track and have a nice portfolio. It's a good idea to be really good at something, rather than trying to be everything to everyone. One thing you might consider, especially as you're starting to enjoy natural light photography, is expanding your range and offering your potential clients a menu of options. You could offer a natural light shoot, or a one-light, two-light, three-light, four-light, or five-light shoot. Price accordingly: you don't have to charge as much if all you have to bring is a camera. Offer pricing with and without backdrops. Let the client decide how little or how much of your gear they need. With the ridiculous low prices can get from blurb and magcloud, you can put together a killer sales piece that shows your prospect the full extent of your capabilities.

Along these lines, talk to your clients/prospects about setting up a schedule for shooting new hires. If they'll commit to having you out multiple times a year, you can cut them a break.

In terms of prospecting for new clients, scour websites that have headshots, looking for businesses where they have 15 or more headshots that all look like they were taken by different photographers. Approach them about cleaning up their overall appearance. You might even consider giving your first multi-shot client a nice discount if they'll let you do a before-and-after study (this is what they used to look like, this is what they look like now, thanks to us).

Lastly, challenge yourself to consider where you are now as a starting point and to treat every opportunity you have to shoot as an opportunity to create a new portfolio piece. And don't look at your portfolio as a collection of images that show what you do, but instead look at them as stories that tell about the problems you have solved.

Hang in there!

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

11/12/2012 07:40:24 PM · #16

Originally posted by Skip:

Plus One Bazillion!

Pure gold, as usual, Skip.

rooum

11/12/2012 07:56:56 PM · #17

Skip's advice is always hugely beneficial and spot on and i've learnt a huge amount from him. Thanks Skip! (in case i haven't had a chance to say that before.)

I'm in a relatively similar boat in that i went full time as a wedding photographer earlier this year. It's going ok but i'm under no illusions that it won't be a slog for the next few years to build my business up. As a wedding photographer i'm not sure what advice i can give. I decided to concentrate solely on that. I did advertise for family portraits but i wasn't really getting any so although i will do them if they come up, and will mention them in small part on my website, i'm just going for weddings. Bookings are coming in happily, and i'm ahead of what i planned to get in terms of my five year plan. It's comlpicated slightly as i've just moved house a few weeks ago to a different part of the country; one which is far more rural and isolated, but i hope in the long run this will go well. I targeted a lot of local areas with postcards and such, cafes, florists, bridal dress shops etc. Building up a presence on the web is vital of course and that does seem to take a lot of time. And getting known in your community is the key i think. Getting to be the first on everyones lips when they think of a photographer.

Message edited by author 2012-11-12 19:57:27.

11/12/2012 10:05:10 PM · #18

Originally posted by Skip:

Thanks for that. So, in a recap, you're saying to stick with the commercial side...
What if I do both? Of course I'd keep the brands separate. Two websites. See which side bites hardest?

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

11/12/2012 11:25:55 PM · #19

ya'll are welcome :D

Originally posted by kgeary:

Thanks for that. So, in a recap, you're saying to stick with the commercial side...
What if I do both? Of course I'd keep the brands separate. Two websites. See which side bites hardest?

While any niche will have its pros and cons, I've found the commercial side preferable. It does take a bit of work to establish yourself, but there's nothing like repeat business...

For example, in the past 90 days I handled 49 bookings for 15 clients, of which only one was for a new client (and that was a wedding for someone who sought me out). Seven jobs were multi-day events (one was a week-long job), and six others were full-day jobs. Four of these required me hiring other photographers to assist with the shooting. All in all, 124 jobs were shot. This work has included everything from portraits to headshots to event coverage to commercial photography to group photos to sports photography to photojournalism to the aforementioned wedding. It hasn't always been like this, and it will take some marketing work (ie, relationship management) to keep it this way, but I personally would rather manage an established relationship rather than to constantly be hunting new ones.

One other thing: four of my main clients are an hour's drive away. It's worth it to them and me for me to make the trip.

This makes sense, and I'm glad it's trending in the right direction for you, Clive!

Originally posted by rooum:

I decided to concentrate solely on that. I did advertise for family portraits but i wasn't really getting any so although i will do them if they come up, and will mention them in small part on my website, i'm just going for weddings. Bookings are coming in happily, and i'm ahead of what i planned to get in terms of my five year plan.

I don't know if I've mentioned this to you before or not, but one of the more successful wedding studios to come out of dpc,

debitipton and

Jesuispeure's kokoro photography, has been letting their clients fill their down time with family photography...boudoir shoots, maternity shoots, newborn shoots, family shoots. The trick is to treat the wedding shoot as the first job for a lifetime of jobs...

Message edited by author 2012-11-12 23:28:33.

tanguera

Nikon D750

11/12/2012 11:55:18 PM · #20

Skip, I always read your advice with great anticipation, and am never disappointed. Thank you for sharing all your extensive experience with us.

As others have done, I'm also trying to make a go of photography as a profession. I've had mixed results, although mostly very positive. Artistically, I've had 5 shows in 2 years, which didn't do much for my pocket (except empty it), but helped to provide me with a great resume. I've done quite a few sessions for fashion, personal projects, models, CD covers, headshots - all paying gigs, although I'm not yet earning enough to "make a living". One thing I found to be important is to set your fee and stand by it (within reason). People shopping for a bargain will always find someone to do it much cheaper or for free. I don't want to be that photographer.

I have been incredibly fortunate to start doing real estate/architecture photography for commercial brokers. I got the introduction because of my sweetie, but due to Skip's approach of offering solutions to problems and providing a superior product, I've had repeat business and have been getting referrals. I've been privy to some feedback from the broker's clients, who are ecstatic that their property looks so good (most of these are inferior, distressed properties). And if the client is happy, the brokers are happy, so they hire me again. It is not particularly creative work (although I do love it), but I see commercial photography as a means to make a living doing something I enjoy, with personal projects to be done in my spare time.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

11/13/2012 08:45:31 AM · #21

Originally posted by tanguera:

Skip, I always read your advice with great anticipation, and am never disappointed. Thank you for sharing all your extensive experience with us.

Thank you for your kind words, Johanna!

Originally posted by tanguera:

One thing I found to be important is to set your fee and stand by it (within reason). People shopping for a bargain will always find someone to do it much cheaper or for free. I don't want to be that photographer.

Excellent point, and true! This is how I try to shake loose price-shoppers: I'll tell them that I can work with just about any budget, that it's just a matter of everyone being on the same page in terms of the work that needs to be done, what is going to be delivered at the end of the day, and how much money there is to spend. I'll suggest a range that people can expect to spend (any where from $500 to $5000, or whatever is appropriate for the situation) and I'll throw out some ideas as to what they might expect in return (amount of images, turnaround time, usages, amount of equipment required, etc). Then I ask them what they can spend and what they want. If it's within reason, great! If not, I try to help them understand their options and why certain things cost more. If they're really price conscious, I try to get them to decide which of their expectations/needs to sacrifice. Sometimes we're able to get on the same page, sometimes they move on to a photographer that can provide a better fit.

Originally posted by tanguera:

[edit: real estate/architecture photography] is not particularly creative work (although I do love it), but I see commercial photography as a means to make a living doing something I enjoy, with personal projects to be done in my spare time.

I'm right there with you on this! The paying work subsidizes the stuff I like to do for free (like fundraising for my kids's activities).

Note: I'm in my 8th year of pursuing photography full-time. It hasn't been without missteps and mistakes, but for the most part, I've been able to keep things trending in the right direction.

tanguera

Nikon D750

11/13/2012 11:04:07 AM · #22

I would probably add that since ANYONE can take a picture these days, as "pros" we really need to be up on our editing skills. Having decent technical skills is no longer enough. Our images have to "pop", and most of the time it takes editing savvy to add that extra something. As an example, a broker I work with has a very eager, over-achieving assistant who adds "I can do that!" to any task mentioned. He was the one taking pictures for the team before I showed up. And certainly, ANYONE can take a picture of a building!!! But I went during golden hour, added beautiful clouds, cleaned it up (within reason, as there are laws about what you can and can't change for real estate imagery), etc. When they got the image, the difference between his work and mine was so great, this same assistant was speechless. An example:

There were no clouds, the (historic) sign sort of blended into the blah sky, I reduced the presence of surrounding buildings, there was litter on the ground, etc. It's hardly rocket science, but when compared to the "other" guy, well, there's just no comparison. Even better, brokers have a marketing budget, so there's no arguing about money :-)

11/13/2012 11:48:56 PM · #23

I've decided to run both simultaneously side by side and see which one bites. As I am able to design my own sites and already have hosting, etc. I'm able to set up a professional web presence for basically no money. This will allow me to pay to send traffic to both sites and market both separately and not confuse clients. Maybe I should start a blog to detail my efforts and results...

11/14/2012 06:37:52 AM · #24

Originally posted by kgeary:

Diversifying is a good thing, and having separate landings for different constituencies makes sense. I would caution against, though, "which side bites", because either side could succeed with a solid business & marketing plan that is well executed. The real measure is profitability, after taking into account the effort required to generate the revenue. If structured and managed effectively, both could make nice contributions to an overall, long-term revenue stream.

For example, if you gathered up 10-15 of the new moms your wife has connected with over the past 6 months and offered them a free portfolio building shoot, you would have the material for a great pitch book. You put out cards and flyers, get referrals, etc, and off you go. You keep your website fresh and you use social media to show how how active and engaged you are and pretty soon everybody-wants-kevin. You get to where you're doing 10 kid shoots a week. Great! But, whether or not it is worth it depends on if you are realizing $20 a shoot or $500 a shoot. And measuring the "bite" is a matter of determining if you are getting 10 shoots a week because you are selling a $20 shoot or delivering a $1000 result for $500.

It might make sense to launch with a bang, offering incredible introductory prices that will scale to where you are only shooting jobs that you really want to do. After all, wouldn't you rather do one $500 a week than 25 $20 jobs? Especially considering that those 25 jobs will each take as much time as the one job?

This is what burns out most camera owners who want to make some money with their camera. They price things based on the cost of the print rather than the cost of running a business. They are overwhelmingly successful in terms of building a clientele that wants to pay next to nothing. After a while of pouring hours into an enterprise that barely generates enough money to buy new gear, they give it up and go back to just giving away disks of unedited photos, not caring about making money.

As I've mentioned before, it takes time for anything to take traction. While it would be great to be as busy as you can be from the get-go, the reality is that it could take 12-36 months of sustained effort to get to the point that you are making the money you need.

One other note about diversifying and having separate landings for different endeavors: it's also a good idea to separate your personal life from your business life, especially if you have political opinions and/or enjoy debating third rail topics. Keep a firewall between your personal social media accounts and your business accounts so that you can be yourself without necessarily turning off any potential business clients that might not share your opinions or that might not want to know what you are doing on a minute-by-minute basis.