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06/18/2015 02:00:07 PM · #1
So the big news today is the mass shooting du jour in Charleston, SC where easy access to more guns didn't just kill more people. The part that got my attention is that the alleged shooter was apprehended just south of Shelby, NC off route 74, a few miles from where I grew up. That turns out to be quite a coincidence. In 1987, a group of white supremacists shot 5 people (killing three of them) at an adult bookstore just south of Shelby, NC off Rt. 74. One of those people apparently turned against his buddies as a witness in exchange for a 5 year sentence (of which he served 3) instead of the 200 years prosecutors were threatening. That person was none other than Frazier Glenn Miller, Jr… the gunman in last year’s massacre at the Overland Park Jewish Community Center. Now for an extra dose of crazy: the defense attorney in the Shelby case was my stepfather.

Message edited by author 2015-06-18 14:10:04.
06/18/2015 02:12:14 PM · #2
I live in Missouri, so the Overland Park Jewish Community Center shooting was big news. Did not read about Miller's history. (Of course, I could have missed it, but you would think that would be included in the newspaper articles.) Small world. Guns make killing easier, but those who want to kill will find a way. Race relations have taken a nose dive this past year.
06/18/2015 02:21:52 PM · #3
Originally posted by Elaine:

Guns make killing easier, but those who want to kill will find a way.

Some will, but most won't make the effort (same goes for suicides). This has been conclusively proven in multiple studies and countries.
06/18/2015 02:35:10 PM · #4
the gun debate just distracts us from real issues. like why people wish to kill others, not how easy we want to make it.
06/18/2015 02:58:17 PM · #5
Originally posted by Mike:

... like why people wish to kill others ...

In this case it's pretty clear the motivation was racial hatred.
06/18/2015 02:58:37 PM · #6
Originally posted by Mike:

the gun debate just distracts us from real issues. like why people wish to kill others, not how easy we want to make it.


I agree.
06/18/2015 03:02:47 PM · #7
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Mike:

... like why people wish to kill others ...

In this case it's pretty clear the motivation was racial hatred.


I would love to see a discussion on possible ways to improve race relations. Discussions usually involve white guilt, but attitudes and actions for the past 50+ years have not gotten us very far. How can we move forward while remembering the past?
06/18/2015 03:08:06 PM · #8
i wonder if the SC state house is going to fly their confederate flag at half mast today?
06/18/2015 03:11:09 PM · #9
Originally posted by Elaine:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Mike:

... like why people wish to kill others ...

In this case it's pretty clear the motivation was racial hatred.


I would love to see a discussion on possible ways to improve race relations. Discussions usually involve white guilt, but attitudes and actions for the past 50+ years have not gotten us very far. How can we move forward while remembering the past?

We may just have to wait for the committed racists to die off -- like marriage equality, militant racism seems less of a "problem" with the young ...

Originally posted by Oscar Hammerstein II:

You’ve got to be taught to hate and fear
You’ve got to be taught from year to year
It’s got to drummed in your dear little ear
You’ve got to be carefully taught

You’ve got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made
And people whose skin is a different shade
You’ve got to be carefully taught

You’ve got to be taught before it’s too late
Before you are six, or seven, or eight
To hate all the people your relatives hate
You’ve got to be carefully taught
You’ve got to be carefully taught!
06/18/2015 03:14:45 PM · #10
Originally posted by GeneralE:


We may just have to wait for the committed racists to die off -- like marriage equality, militant racism seems less of a "problem" with the young ...


this kid was 21.
06/18/2015 03:15:28 PM · #11
Originally posted by Mike:

the gun debate just distracts us from real issues. like why people wish to kill others, not how easy we want to make it.

Utter nonsense. Wishing to kill others is not an exclusively American trait, yet other non-warring 1st world countries don't have anywhere near the levels of mass murder found here. The difference IS that we do everything possible to make killing easy, and everything is a distraction from a debate that gun rights advocates want to avoid forever, no matter the cost in innocent lives. That's why they have used irrational fear as a sales tactic and fought for laws like actually banning research into the issue, which is completely insane for anything but evasion of an honest, fact-based debate. Gun control was not the point of this thread, but the same old platitudes offered as an excuse to dodge an inevitable reckoning on gun violence are no longer credible against the examples of world history. That reckoning will come, but only after statements presidents have made too many times are made many more times.

Message edited by author 2015-06-18 15:16:55.
06/18/2015 03:16:55 PM · #12
Originally posted by GeneralE:


We may just have to wait for the committed racists to die off -- like marriage equality, militant racism seems less of a "problem" with the young ...



Perhaps, but this shooter was 21. Not sure we can go another 50 years at this pace.

Edit to add: Mike typed faster than I did!

Message edited by author 2015-06-18 15:17:23.
06/18/2015 03:18:24 PM · #13
Originally posted by Elaine:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Mike:

... like why people wish to kill others ...

In this case it's pretty clear the motivation was racial hatred.


I would love to see a discussion on possible ways to improve race relations. Discussions usually involve white guilt, but attitudes and actions for the past 50+ years have not gotten us very far. How can we move forward while remembering the past?


the best way to combat it is probably to reduce poverty. the lower classes are the cause of the majority of the violence in this world for one reason or another, all races included.

Message edited by author 2015-06-18 15:19:58.
06/18/2015 03:22:00 PM · #14
Originally posted by Mike:

Originally posted by Elaine:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Mike:

... like why people wish to kill others ...

In this case it's pretty clear the motivation was racial hatred.


I would love to see a discussion on possible ways to improve race relations. Discussions usually involve white guilt, but attitudes and actions for the past 50+ years have not gotten us very far. How can we move forward while remembering the past?


the best way to combat it is probably to reduce poverty. the lower classes are the cause of the majority of the violence in this world for one reason or another, all races included.


Difficult to see how poverty plays a part in this particular scenario.
06/18/2015 03:25:40 PM · #15
Interesting read. Harvard Gun Study
06/18/2015 03:25:52 PM · #16
Originally posted by Mike:

Originally posted by GeneralE:


We may just have to wait for the committed racists to die off -- like marriage equality, militant racism seems less of a "problem" with the young ...


this kid was 21.


Doesn't seem to be much less hate or ignorance than there ever was - the people who hated blacks 50 years ago now hate Muslims, likewise gays and (in the UK at least) eastern European immigrants...
06/18/2015 03:28:48 PM · #17
Originally posted by ray_mefarso:



Difficult to see how poverty plays a part in this particular scenario.


it doesn't directly, but I'm of the firm believe that if people have good jobs and money to spend, they will find better things to do than to run around shooting each other.

06/18/2015 03:29:37 PM · #18
Combining a culture where guns are the norm; a mainstream entertainment culture where guns solve many fictional or theoretical problems; a polarized global culture where people are constantly blaming others for the world's problems; and a family and neighborhood culture that encourages racism ... probably could be pretty encouraging for a person to use the easiest tool possible to kill with racist hate.
06/18/2015 03:34:15 PM · #19
Originally posted by Elaine:

Interesting read. Harvard Gun Study


Interesting that so many distortions and obvious lies are collected in one document and given a 'Harvard' stamp of veracity
06/18/2015 03:37:14 PM · #20
Originally posted by ray_mefarso:

Originally posted by Elaine:

Interesting read. Harvard Gun Study


Interesting that so many distortions and obvious lies are collected in one document and given a 'Harvard' stamp of veracity


Lies because it doesn't agree with what you believe, or do you have a better source?
06/18/2015 03:37:37 PM · #21
Originally posted by Elaine:

Interesting read. Harvard Gun Study


they dont teach writing abstracts at Harvard?

can i get a tl;dr?

Message edited by author 2015-06-18 15:40:07.
06/18/2015 03:43:08 PM · #22
This is what led me to the study.
06/18/2015 03:49:31 PM · #23
ok i didn't read the WHOLE report, but banning guns will reduce murders, for the simple fact that making rocket launchers freely available will increase murders. you can't make it easy for people to kill many people at once without them being able to defend themself or stop you.

I probably cant kill a whole bunch of children in school with a knife

i probably cant kill an entire group of people in a church with a knife.

i probably cant kill an entire movie theater of people with a knife.

i cant takeover four planes with a knife, well three, the fourth the passengers would realize they could take it back.

now if i had a gun...

Message edited by author 2015-06-18 15:53:45.
06/18/2015 03:51:34 PM · #24
Originally posted by ray_mefarso:

Originally posted by Elaine:

Interesting read. Harvard Gun Study

Interesting that so many distortions and obvious lies are collected in one document and given a 'Harvard' stamp of veracity

Given by whom? The authors were not actually affiliated with Harvard, and this was not a peer reviewed research paper. More like an opinion piece posted to a printed blog with Harvard's name on it and, yes, riddled with distortions and obvious lies.
06/18/2015 03:51:50 PM · #25
but thats not the point, the point is that we keep having this stupid gun debate when we could be improving the lives of many others AND settle the gun debate as a consequence.
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