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06/19/2015 11:25:56 PM · #151 |
Originally posted by Elaine:
Originally posted by mindbottling:
Originally posted by Elaine:
Originally posted by mindbottling:
The comparison to suicide was made earlier in this thread. As a crisis therapist, when I assess for risk of suicide, access to lethal means is considered a big risk factor. Does taking away guns cure depression? Nope. Does it prevent someone from looking for other ways to commit suicide? No. But removing someone's access to extremely immediate and lethal means provides some time for intervention. I think the comparison holds true when it comes to mass killings. Putting a barrier between angry people and guns does not address the hatred, poverty, lack of hope, desperation, etc. but it may reduce the immediate and lethal consequences of an attempted mass killing. |
I have been taught to assess the plan a person has for committing suicide and the availability of items to carry out that plan. If my plan is to OD or hang myself, having 50 guns in the room won't make a difference, and removing the guns won't stop me. That said, it can never be wrong to remove access to guns for anyone who is suicidal.
As to mass murders, if the goal is to kill as many as possible, a method can usually be found. Access to a gun might make it easier, but one could also use a bomb, a car, an airplane, or... And for one person killing another, several years ago there was a killing at a middle school by a student using a screw driver. |
I absolutely disagree that if your plan was to OD or hang, having guns won't make a difference. Yes, the plan matters in a suicide assessment. But it's significance has much less to do with the actual plan as it does the fact that the individual has thought it through well enough to have a plan at all.
The kid with the screwdriver killed one person. I'm not saying that it's insignificant because it was only one person. However, when you hear stories about 26 people being killed at school, the weapon of choice is not usually a screwdriver. |
I don't want to argue about suicide, but unless you are also going to remove all pills, sheets, upper story windows, razor blades, bathtubs, cars, and any other means, someone who is truly serious about ending his/her life will find a way. And, of course, the chance of someone trying to commit mass murder with a screwdriver is pretty small. That is why I separated it out saying "one on one". |
I realize this was posted a few pages back, but this is the fallback argument we hear with gun homicides as well - a sort of "if there's a will, there's a way." This is simply not true. When you don't have easy access to a gun, it kind of wrecks your mass killing plan. It becomes less simple, takes more time, requires some thorough (practical) planning, etc. With regards to suicides, it has been suggested that a good number of suicides are spur of the moment deals, where there isn't meticulous planning, and which are made that much easier when you can take yourself out quickly. Furthermore, it has been proven that having a gun on you makes you more likely to be aggressive, though I don't think they went as far as to say that you're more likely to shoot than a gun-less individual would be to start a fight.
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06/20/2015 03:01:14 AM · #152 |
Who is responsible for mass shootings, suicides by gunshot, domestic violence involving guns, and accidental gunshot deaths? Responsible gun owners are responsible.
I don't mean who actually pulled the trigger and why; that's begging the question. The question begged is this: is there a clear correlation between the prevalence of unlawful killings by gunshot and the extent of legal gun ownership? The normalisation of gun ownership? The overt celebration of gun ownership? The romantic portrayal of guns in popular culture? The ubiquitous and wildly inappropriate deployment of guns in law enforcement? For all those questions, the answer is yes.
Is there a clear negative correlation between the absence of those cultural factors and the prevalence of unlawful killings by gunshot? Yes. See the Australian experience.
Mass killings and all the other gun-involved events are the price to be paid for responsible gun ownership. Just as drunk drivers are the price we all pay for our own responsible drinking.
I'm not arguing to outlaw gun ownership entirely (nor did Australia); I'm just pointing out that the more of it you have, the higher the price you must pay. So it had better be worth it. Is it?
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06/20/2015 06:31:10 AM · #153 |
Originally posted by ubique:
Who is responsible for mass shootings, suicides by gunshot, domestic violence involving guns, and accidental gunshot deaths? Responsible gun owners are responsible.
I don't mean who actually pulled the trigger and why; that's begging the question. The question begged is this: is there a clear correlation between the prevalence of unlawful killings by gunshot and the extent of legal gun ownership? The normalisation of gun ownership? The overt celebration of gun ownership? The romantic portrayal of guns in popular culture? The ubiquitous and wildly inappropriate deployment of guns in law enforcement? For all those questions, the answer is yes.
Is there a clear negative correlation between the absence of those cultural factors and the prevalence of unlawful killings by gunshot? Yes. See the Australian experience.
Mass killings and all the other gun-involved events are the price to be paid for responsible gun ownership. Just as drunk drivers are the price we all pay for our own responsible drinking.
I'm not arguing to outlaw gun ownership entirely (nor did Australia); I'm just pointing out that the more of it you have, the higher the price you must pay. So it had better be worth it. Is it? |
++1 |
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06/20/2015 09:11:21 AM · #154 |
society tolerates gun violence when its between members of society that aren't deemed to have any value, like drug or gang violence. (think about that for a second...) and whether or not we should is up for debate, but i think there is an justifiable uproar when its innocents that aren't doing anything to deserve that fate, and especially when it involves children. if violence occurs on the streets, its acceptable, as we have almost not only come to expect it but tolerate it as a consequence of gun ownership, but when that violence spills into movie theaters, schools and churches, society doesn't and shouldn't tolerate it.
Message edited by author 2015-06-20 09:12:42. |
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06/20/2015 07:16:45 PM · #155 |
Originally posted by George:
I realize this was posted a few pages back, but this is the fallback argument we hear with gun homicides as well - a sort of "if there's a will, there's a way." This is simply not true. When you don't have easy access to a gun, it kind of wrecks your mass killing plan. It becomes less simple, takes more time, requires some thorough (practical) planning, etc. With regards to suicides, it has been suggested that a good number of suicides are spur of the moment deals, where there isn't meticulous planning, and which are made that much easier when you can take yourself out quickly. Furthermore, it has been proven that having a gun on you makes you more likely to be aggressive, though I don't think they went as far as to say that you're more likely to shoot than a gun-less individual would be to start a fight. |
I agree many suicides are spur of the moment. I saw a video of a teen who decided to jump out a window, with no planning or thought beforehand. He didn't need a gun. Hanging, driving into a tree, jumping out a window, slitting your wrist, overdose, jumping in front of a car, and more. There are many ways to commit suicide. |
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06/20/2015 07:44:30 PM · #156 |
Originally posted by Elaine:
Originally posted by George:
I realize this was posted a few pages back, but this is the fallback argument we hear with gun homicides as well - a sort of "if there's a will, there's a way." This is simply not true. When you don't have easy access to a gun, it kind of wrecks your mass killing plan. It becomes less simple, takes more time, requires some thorough (practical) planning, etc. With regards to suicides, it has been suggested that a good number of suicides are spur of the moment deals, where there isn't meticulous planning, and which are made that much easier when you can take yourself out quickly. Furthermore, it has been proven that having a gun on you makes you more likely to be aggressive, though I don't think they went as far as to say that you're more likely to shoot than a gun-less individual would be to start a fight. |
I agree many suicides are spur of the moment. I saw a video of a teen who decided to jump out a window, with no planning or thought beforehand. He didn't need a gun. Hanging, driving into a tree, jumping out a window, slitting your wrist, overdose, jumping in front of a car, and more. There are many ways to commit suicide. |
I do wonder, though, how many mass killings there would have been (saving the odd Jonestown massacre) if guns were not easily available. |
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06/20/2015 10:20:16 PM · #157 |
Originally posted by Elaine:
I agree many suicides are spur of the moment.
...There are many ways to commit suicide. |
You might be interested in reading a study conducted in 2008 Revisiting Impulsivityin Suicides that seems to suggest that such is not the case. The following is an except from a paper written by Michael D. Anestis who makes reference to that study when he says:
"Without question, impulsivity is related to suicidal behavior. That being said, the data do not support the notion that suicide attempts tend to occur on the "spur of the moment" without substantial planning. In fact, a study by Witte and colleagues (2008) indicated that impulsive individuals tend to plan their attempts more than non-impulsive individuals and studies by Baca-Garcia and colleagues (2001, 2005) demonstrated that the more impulsive an attempt is, the less medically serious it tends to be"
Guns may not be the cause in some instances, but they do make the process much simpler and effective.
Ray
Message edited by author 2015-06-20 22:21:18. |
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06/23/2015 09:03:28 PM · #158 |
Interesting how this thread, started to discuss the Charleston murders has devolved into a discussion on suicide.
I remember when Newton (Sandy Hook) was new, with the killed children, it was suggested that kindergarten and 1st grade teachers be armed.
Following this thru to its logical conclusion, pastors and preachers and priests should be armed as well.
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06/23/2015 09:44:39 PM · #159 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
Interesting how this thread, started to discuss the Charleston murders has devolved into a discussion on suicide.
I remember when Newton (Sandy Hook) was new, with the killed children, it was suggested that kindergarten and 1st grade teachers be armed.
Following this thru to its logical conclusion, pastors and preachers and priests should be armed as well. |
Apparently a member of the board of the NRA has already said that had the pastor and the parishioners been well armed, they would not be dead. (Attributed to a Charles Cotton, who has been on the board for 13 years. The NRA did say that board members do not speak for the organization as a whole.)
Message edited by author 2015-06-23 21:46:54. |
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06/24/2015 06:51:08 AM · #160 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
Following this thru to its logical conclusion, pastors and preachers and priests should be armed as well. |
They are, with something far more deadly than firearms... ;-) |
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06/24/2015 10:45:33 PM · #161 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by sfalice:
Following this thru to its logical conclusion, pastors and preachers and priests should be armed as well. |
They are, with something far more deadly than firearms... ;-) |
Oh, Cory, tell me please, how a bullet through the heart and the slaying of your flock of worshipers
makes a preacher, pastor or priest invulnerable to yet another massacre by gunfire.
The band-aid of banning the confederate flag is another deflection of this serious problem in our country.
Again, I refer folks to the Australian solution (referenced earlier) that has resulted in no mass slayings in 10 years.
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06/24/2015 10:49:01 PM · #162 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by sfalice:
Following this thru to its logical conclusion, pastors and preachers and priests should be armed as well. |
They are, with something far more deadly than firearms... ;-) |
Oh, Cory, tell me please, how a bullet through the heart and the slaying of your flock of worshipers
makes a preacher, pastor or priest invulnerable to yet another massacre by gunfire.
The band-aid of banning the confederate flag is another deflection of this serious problem in our country.
Again, I refer folks to the Australian solution (referenced earlier) that has resulted in no mass slayings in 10 years. |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_mass_murders
Message edited by Bear_Music - parsed link. |
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06/24/2015 10:59:38 PM · #163 |
Originally posted by chazoe:
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by sfalice:
Following this thru to its logical conclusion, pastors and preachers and priests should be armed as well. |
They are, with something far more deadly than firearms... ;-) |
Oh, Cory, tell me please, how a bullet through the heart and the slaying of your flock of worshipers
makes a preacher, pastor or priest invulnerable to yet another massacre by gunfire.
The band-aid of banning the confederate flag is another deflection of this serious problem in our country.
Again, I refer folks to the Australian solution (referenced earlier) that has resulted in no mass slayings in 10 years. |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_mass_murders |
As opposed to: Mass Murders, USA. A rather long list.
To break it down by killings by gun: this research would help. |
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06/24/2015 11:16:14 PM · #164 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by sfalice:
Following this thru to its logical conclusion, pastors and preachers and priests should be armed as well. |
They are, with something far more deadly than firearms... ;-) |
Oh, Cory, tell me please, how a bullet through the heart and the slaying of your flock of worshipers
makes a preacher, pastor or priest invulnerable to yet another massacre by gunfire.
The band-aid of banning the confederate flag is another deflection of this serious problem in our country.
Again, I refer folks to the Australian solution (referenced earlier) that has resulted in no mass slayings in 10 years. |
The lethality of religion has nothing to do with the killing of the faithful. Tell me again about how many millions have been slaughtered by the faithful (of one flavor or another) in the name of God/Allah/Ra/deity of choice using bare hands, sticks, stones, swords, spears, arrows, guns, car bombs, suicide vests and all manner of objects or tools of destruction.
It's not just the brutal, outright slaughter either, look at those in power who use their faith to justify changing the rules in ways that treat others as less than human, often with deadly effect.
Religion is far more deadly than guns in the US |
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06/24/2015 11:18:29 PM · #165 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by sfalice:
Following this thru to its logical conclusion, pastors and preachers and priests should be armed as well. |
They are, with something far more deadly than firearms... ;-) |
Oh, Cory, tell me please, how a bullet through the heart and the slaying of your flock of worshipers
makes a preacher, pastor or priest invulnerable to yet another massacre by gunfire.
The band-aid of banning the confederate flag is another deflection of this serious problem in our country.
Again, I refer folks to the Australian solution (referenced earlier) that has resulted in no mass slayings in 10 years. |
The lethality of religion has nothing to do with the killing of the faithful. Tell me again about how many millions have been slaughtered by the faithful (of one flavor or another) in the name of God/Allah/Ra/deity of choice using bare hands, sticks, stones, swords, spears, arrows, guns, car bombs, suicide vests and all manner of objects or tools of destruction.
It's not just the brutal, outright slaughter either, look at those in power who use their faith to justify changing the rules in ways that treat others as less than human, often with deadly effect.
Religion is far more deadly than guns in the US |
So, Spork, are you telling me that those folks who died in Charleston deserved it? Surely not. |
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06/24/2015 11:20:21 PM · #166 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
The band-aid of banning the confederate flag is another deflection of this serious problem in our country. |
Well, we have many serious problems. Banning the confederate flag is not a band-aid; it's an entirely different matter. It's a disgrace it's taken this long. |
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06/24/2015 11:26:53 PM · #167 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by sfalice:
Following this thru to its logical conclusion, pastors and preachers and priests should be armed as well. |
They are, with something far more deadly than firearms... ;-) |
Oh, Cory, tell me please, how a bullet through the heart and the slaying of your flock of worshipers
makes a preacher, pastor or priest invulnerable to yet another massacre by gunfire.
The band-aid of banning the confederate flag is another deflection of this serious problem in our country.
Again, I refer folks to the Australian solution (referenced earlier) that has resulted in no mass slayings in 10 years. |
The lethality of religion has nothing to do with the killing of the faithful. Tell me again about how many millions have been slaughtered by the faithful (of one flavor or another) in the name of God/Allah/Ra/deity of choice using bare hands, sticks, stones, swords, spears, arrows, guns, car bombs, suicide vests and all manner of objects or tools of destruction.
It's not just the brutal, outright slaughter either, look at those in power who use their faith to justify changing the rules in ways that treat others as less than human, often with deadly effect.
Religion is far more deadly than guns in the US |
So, Spork, are you telling me that those folks who died in Charleston deserved it? Surely not. |
Not at all.
The numbers of those killed by in the name of God simply dwarfs the number of those killed in mass shootings. Religion in the hands of those who would misuse it is more dangerous than a gun in the hands of those who would misuse it. |
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06/24/2015 11:31:18 PM · #168 |
Originally posted by bohemka:
Originally posted by sfalice:
The band-aid of banning the confederate flag is another deflection of this serious problem in our country. |
Well, we have many serious problems. Banning the confederate flag is not a band-aid; it's an entirely different matter. It's a disgrace it's taken this long. |
Yes, it is a disgrace. Here's a quote from the guy who came up with the confederate flag, just for demonstration:
Originally posted by William T Thompson:
As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism. Another merit in the new flag is, that it bears no resemblance to the now infamous banner of the Yankee vandals.
—William T. Thompson (May 4, 1863), Daily Morning News |
In my mind, it's the American equivalent to the Nazi flag. |
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06/24/2015 11:44:30 PM · #169 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by sfalice:
Following this thru to its logical conclusion, pastors and preachers and priests should be armed as well. |
They are, with something far more deadly than firearms... ;-) |
Oh, Cory, tell me please, how a bullet through the heart and the slaying of your flock of worshipers
makes a preacher, pastor or priest invulnerable to yet another massacre by gunfire.
The band-aid of banning the confederate flag is another deflection of this serious problem in our country.
Again, I refer folks to the Australian solution (referenced earlier) that has resulted in no mass slayings in 10 years. |
The lethality of religion has nothing to do with the killing of the faithful. Tell me again about how many millions have been slaughtered by the faithful (of one flavor or another) in the name of God/Allah/Ra/deity of choice using bare hands, sticks, stones, swords, spears, arrows, guns, car bombs, suicide vests and all manner of objects or tools of destruction.
It's not just the brutal, outright slaughter either, look at those in power who use their faith to justify changing the rules in ways that treat others as less than human, often with deadly effect.
Religion is far more deadly than guns in the US |
So, Spork, are you telling me that those folks who died in Charleston deserved it? Surely not. |
Not at all.
The numbers of those killed by in the name of God simply dwarfs the number of those killed in mass shootings. Religion in the hands of those who would misuse it is more dangerous than a gun in the hands of those who would misuse it. |
I see where you are coming from, Spork. Still, in the USA today, we have a system of laws that prohibit the killing of innocents. These folk were practicing a religion which brought them comfort. While the weight of history does indeed reflect the misuse of religion (and I certainly hold no brief for that) these folk were simply trying to find comfort in their faith.
I don't really know what else to say on the subject. I suspect we are not so far apart as it might appear. It just seems that this tragedy is being set aside (as others have been) and dang it, it should not be. |
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06/25/2015 12:00:50 AM · #170 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by bohemka:
Originally posted by sfalice:
The band-aid of banning the confederate flag is another deflection of this serious problem in our country. |
Well, we have many serious problems. Banning the confederate flag is not a band-aid; it's an entirely different matter. It's a disgrace it's taken this long. |
Yes, it is a disgrace. Here's a quote from the guy who came up with the confederate flag, just for demonstration:
Originally posted by William T Thompson:
As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism. Another merit in the new flag is, that it bears no resemblance to the now infamous banner of the Yankee vandals.
—William T. Thompson (May 4, 1863), Daily Morning News |
In my mind, it's the American equivalent to the Nazi flag. |
Many equate the flying of that flag to freedom of speech, a Constitutional right. |
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06/25/2015 04:33:20 AM · #171 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by sfalice:
Following this thru to its logical conclusion, pastors and preachers and priests should be armed as well. |
They are, with something far more deadly than firearms... ;-) |
Oh, Cory, tell me please, how a bullet through the heart and the slaying of your flock of worshipers
makes a preacher, pastor or priest invulnerable to yet another massacre by gunfire.
The band-aid of banning the confederate flag is another deflection of this serious problem in our country.
Again, I refer folks to the Australian solution (referenced earlier) that has resulted in no mass slayings in 10 years. |
The lethality of religion has nothing to do with the killing of the faithful. Tell me again about how many millions have been slaughtered by the faithful (of one flavor or another) in the name of God/Allah/Ra/deity of choice using bare hands, sticks, stones, swords, spears, arrows, guns, car bombs, suicide vests and all manner of objects or tools of destruction.
It's not just the brutal, outright slaughter either, look at those in power who use their faith to justify changing the rules in ways that treat others as less than human, often with deadly effect.
Religion is far more deadly than guns in the US |
So, Spork, are you telling me that those folks who died in Charleston deserved it? Surely not. |
Not at all.
The numbers of those killed by in the name of God simply dwarfs the number of those killed in mass shootings. Religion in the hands of those who would misuse it is more dangerous than a gun in the hands of those who would misuse it. |
yes, many more people die in car crashes, due to poor diet, smoking etc etc. but if the US figures for deaths due to these other causes was more than 10 times higher than elsewhere in the developed world it would be considered intolerable and there would rightfully be an outcry. |
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06/25/2015 07:15:38 AM · #172 |
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06/25/2015 07:00:19 PM · #173 |
Shouldn't this have been thrown in the rant folder by now?
Until you figure out how to un-invent the gun it's just silly talk. |
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06/25/2015 08:45:57 PM · #174 |
Originally posted by nygold:
Shouldn't this have been thrown in the rant folder by now?
Until you figure out how to un-invent the gun it's just silly talk. |
Silly talk? Maybe, but I'm grateful that SC has not yet tossed this into Rant, where such subjects languish as perhaps planned by those who would supress them.
Even tho the last 2 thoughtful comments came from our Rays in England and Canada, who give valuable perspective on this divisive in the USA, subject.
A thoughtful discussion on the role of guns in the society of the USA needs to be continued until a wedge has been drawn in the battle for gun control. Presently it's owned by those who seem to want guns for eveyone.
Now, someone, tell me, please why simple rules such as:
1. proficiency with guns should be demonstrated before a license (yes, a license) is issued,
and,additionally proficiency with guns should be demonstrated subsequently at intervals thereafter.
2. gun ownership must be accompanied by a background check to avoid ownership by those convicted of felonies.
Other countries (i.e. Canada, England, Australia) have somehow surmounted these perceived obstacles.
Does this mean that the United Stated who sayhs it "knows how" can't find a solution?
Do these minor restrictions hinder the formation of a "militia" as some would argue?
My husband was a gun owner and an owner of a license issued on his 21st birthday.
His father was honored by having the "Robert Linus Steele Rifle Range" in his town
named in his honor many years ago for his guidance in educating the sons and daughters
of his community in the use of firearms.
Message edited by author 2015-06-25 20:48:26. |
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06/25/2015 09:22:07 PM · #175 |
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