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12/02/2015 01:06:35 AM · #1 |
Isn't this the way you're suppose to bring up children, but I'm guessing some parents find it too difficult. I'm thinking this would stop a lot of children from being medicated as well, and not to mention save a lot of time at school.
success
Message edited by author 2015-12-02 09:01:37. |
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12/02/2015 04:58:17 AM · #2 |
Of course focus and time on task is important but it certainly isn't a complete picture. Taking notes while someone is speaking would also be a good way to focus attention. I think there are a number of flaws with this sort of controlling pedagogy:
1. It's about compliance rather than learning
2. Receipt of information can masquerade (and be interpreted) as learning in contexts where assessment methods reward the acquisition of declarative knowledge
3. Learning should be a process of sense-making whereby students make sense of new information by articulating it with their previous experiences and knowledge - suppressing apparent 'day dreaming' runs the risk of suppressing reflection and conceptualisation
4. This sort of conformist approach to school education becomes really difficult to unpick at university, where creativity, challenge and argument are required and polite passivity leads to completely the wrong sort of engagement with study
Passing a school-level maths exam is one thing; preparing young people for life and/or university is quite another.
These are my views as a professor of learning and teaching who holds a doctorate in learning and learning contexts and as one who teaches university academics how to teach. I appreciate I may have a different perspective from someone in a school context. |
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12/02/2015 07:38:42 AM · #3 |
only 3 rules to learn something.
1. pay attention
2. Pay Attention
3. PAY ATTENTION
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12/03/2015 01:52:49 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:
only 3 rules to learn something.
1. pay attention
2. Pay Attention
3. PAY ATTENTION |
Kinda thin, guy.....
How about, "Pay attention, ask questions, utilize the knowledge."?
It's REALLY hard to pay attention to someone trying to teach you something you already know, especially when, to your horror, this person charged with imparting the knowledge to you, knows less about it than you.
I was everyone's worst nightmare in school.......teachers, other students, my parents, and even my own because of all the havoc I wreaked in classes.
The only classes I did not disrupt were those where I was actually challenged, and that the teacher had a genuine commitment to imparting their knowledge and developing young minds.
In short, I was bored out of my wits most of the time because the educational system is really not designed to offer much to intelligent, right-brained individuals with tendencies toward tuning out.
It's pretty rare to find teachers, even at the private school, small class level who truly have an interest in ensuring that all their students "get it".
If they have to put too much effort into it, or they find themselves challenged beyond what they feel is reasonable, they can take a pass on that "problem child" and it's acceptable attrition.
That's a tough line to draw in the sand, though, because at 60, I am still learning, growing, and insatiably curious about most anything new, and it's still hard for me to find teachers when I really want or need to know and understand how things are and/or work.
Could just be me.....I know I would have not been too happy to have me as a student! LOL!!!
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12/03/2015 02:14:11 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
It's REALLY hard to pay attention to someone trying to teach you something you already know, especially when, to your horror, this person charged with imparting the knowledge to you, knows less about it than you. |
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12/03/2015 03:36:14 PM · #6 |
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12/03/2015 03:41:17 PM · #7 |
As parent of two special needs children, pieces like this make me cringe. First, because BC (before children), I would have agreed with them 100% and Second, my children showed me how unique people can be, and how, for certain special needs, typical assumptions do not apply.
For some children, the article's approach would be as cruel as demanding a blind child describe what they see, or a deaf child to repeat what they hear.
Children with autism learn differently - especially those with sensory differences. For some, it would be physically impossible to watch the person who is talking, and process what is being said at the same time.
Most people learn from general to specific - give me a framework to "hang" my knowledge on (context), then teach me the details. Many people with autism learn from specific to general - after they experience enough individual detailed occurrences, they can begin to make generalizations.
I still find it amusing when well-meaning folks would give us "solutions" to the challenges with our children - when they simply had no clue. And there were always those folks whose chief idea was that they just needed a little discipline (typically meaning punishment).
My advice to parents (and yes, teachers) of children with autism? You have to go to them, on their terms, because they can't come to you. It isn't "won't", but truly "can't".
My wife's? Too many to list - she's a wise lady, but two stand out...
My child's emotions don't have autism. Their intellect doesn't have autism. But their sensory and communication - boy do those have autism!
and
A child with autism can learn anything, but you have to break it down for them step by step - and you can't leave out any steps. |
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12/04/2015 09:26:49 AM · #8 |
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12/04/2015 10:32:01 AM · #9 |
in everything we teach there is a basic rule of how people learn. The first step as a teacher is to present the material to be learned by the student.
Second step is to practice together with the teacher, classmates using QA and other activities that will not make the class too boring. Third step is the performance part. This is where the student will have to use the new learned material. As teacher there are many ways to check the students, but most common are quizzes in bigger classes. As teacher you should see who and where they don't get the point. Next time you have to review from the first step if there are problems. This is called the PPP. (present, practice, perform) Don't expect a student to perform as long there was a lack of practice. Don't practice as long there was a lack of presentation. All these steps need full attention. Students with a short attention span never get good results. They need to be trained first to pay more attention. They however perform much better in classes with "good" students. |
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12/04/2015 04:12:43 PM · #10 |
Autism leaves out the practice part (and some times the perform, which, of course, is perform-on-demand). Although each individual with autism may be different, my two observe (although when they start observing isn't clear) and then do with no observable practice stage.
For example, if you put extra locks on the front door to keep them inside, all they have to do is watch you unlock it once, and they know how to do it themselves.
I'm not sure what goes on with the perform part, but sometimes it is like they don't want you to know that they can do the desired task. More often, it seems, is that they don't understand what is expected of them.
On the observe part, they can observe while not looking at something, while in constant motion, and while not exhibiting any of the social cues we use to "know" if someone is paying attention to something.
My kids have forced me to work first with what is, and not worry nearly as much about how something "should be".
My main point in responding to this thread is that, much to my surprise, I've discovered that one size does not fit all and that, despite that everyone should be able to do certain simple things, not everyone can. Sometimes the differences are slight, but sometimes the differences are HUGE!
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12/04/2015 04:35:55 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:
Students with a short attention span never get good results. |
Really???? How about if their attention span is flagging because the teacher is uninspired and the material is pablum? Not everyone who has a short attention span is a bad student. Some are just completely intolerant of being bored out of their wits. That doesn't mean they won't get good results, it just means they won't be stifled.
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:
They need to be trained first to pay more attention. |
Oh, PLEASE tell me you didn't really mean this to be as ridiculous and clueless as it sounds. It's NOT always the student. You can work with students to have them have an easier and better time engaging, but the whole "Trained to pay more attention" is just too far out there. You cannot train someone to not be bored.
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:
They however perform much better in classes with "good" students. |
What a load of crap. The education and motivation of a student isn't based on the others in the classes. Yes, extremes one way or the other may affect the overall atmosphere of the classroom, but don't think for a second that inspiration and motivation are based on the classmates.
It's weird......a lot of the students I encountered who were good little automatons and did exactly what they were supposed to often didn't really end up as people I would consider to be inspired and interesting. Often it was the troublemakers & ne'er-do-wells who had the particular vision and perspectives on the world around them actually accomplished things and got them noticed.
Steve Jobs said it well: Here's to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers, the round pegs in the square holes... the ones who see things differently -- they're not fond of rules... You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them, but the only thing you can't do is ignore them because they change things... they push the human race forward, and while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius, because the ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world, are the ones who do.
F*ckin' right!
I'm sure this discussion is going to go back and forth.......there are some funny ideas out there about how education works.......mine included! LOL!!!
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12/04/2015 08:07:11 PM · #12 |
Being an adult with ADHD with a sprinkle of dyslexia as well as having a special needs child articles like this really bother me. It's not easy being so different.
The good news is it seems more and more people are starting to understand but sadly it seems the majority still thinks is poor parenting skills and lacking the ability to discipline your child. They think the medication is so the parents don't have to deal with the kids.
Like David said earlier there are a wide variety of behaviors associated with ADHD.
Years ago when I was growing up in the late 70's early 80's if a child has very hyper and couldn't pay attention then he or she was put in a special ed class but if you were well behaved in class yet you couldn't stay focused and kept falling behind you were labeled as lazy.
It's still odd how it seems to be now problem for a person to walk up to my wife and I and give us advise on our special needs child. But if I walked up to a woman who was over weight and told her how she could eat salads and go to the gym she would probably slap me in the face.
The same crap goes on here and but that's just how the world is right now so people like me just have to deal with it. Dyslexic jokes for instance are fair game, how about spelling and god for bid grammar.
I spent the better part of 30 years trying to put numbers and letters on the left when I see them on the right, then I'm back and forth with google spell checking every other freaking word only to have someone point out my spelling and grammar issues and then get piled on with the so called "Grammar Nazis". This is all fine but if someone photoshops a a 150LB woman down to 125lbs HOLY MONKEY the place goes crazy.
It's a wacky world what can I say.
OK that was a fun vent I hope the page didn't time out this took me well over an hour.
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12/04/2015 08:09:32 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by nygold:
OK that was a fun vent I hope the page didn't time out this took me well over an hour. |
And worth every minute :-) |
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12/05/2015 03:20:41 AM · #14 |
I am the first one to find solutions with problem students. Be on the field with real students and you'll understand. Many psycholinguists spend more time writing books how others have to handle it.... but when they are confronted with a class with 5-6 kids, unwilling to learn, they are even worse than novice teachers. Half of the class becomes a zoo. Recent years I hear way to often, "this kid has ADHD". I am not a doctor in this field, but why the student CAN learn and behave properly after few days in my class? Every student is different in their learning ability. My best grading students (stats on +500 students) are the less active ones, they are also the students not using their knowledge after. My most talkative and active students score lower on tests. They are also the ones that get the best jobs after. Go figure that being a very diligent students doesn't pair with good results after in life. So this is more about personal attitude and less with academic skills.
People who feel bored all the time are boring people themselves.
Message edited by author 2015-12-05 09:22:23. |
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12/05/2015 03:23:16 AM · #15 |
And many people always think to know it better than a teacher.
When the teacher becomes useless it means he achieved his goal of theaching someone something |
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12/05/2015 08:47:33 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:
And many people always think to know it better than a teacher.
When the teacher becomes useless it means he achieved his goal of theaching someone something |
... and some teachers earnestly believe that the ability to impart knowledge is the exclusive domain of teachers.
There do exist scenarios where the messenger is incapable of properly conveying the message and is not remotely close to achieving the intended goals.
Ray |
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12/05/2015 09:35:52 AM · #17 |
Some parents believe that teachers are doctors.
Self study is extremely difficult, especially languages. Without help from a teacher, you will definitely spend much more time.
Who of you is a teacher here?
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12/05/2015 09:43:02 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:
And many people always think to know it better than a teacher.
When the teacher becomes useless it means he achieved his goal of theaching someone something |
I always thought a teacher was a student. The two can't be separated and learning isn't a one way street. I can't image a teacher believing there is nothing more to teach or learn. |
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12/05/2015 09:51:18 AM · #19 |
| the learning process never stops, but the students has to use his own wings one day. That's when a teacher is satisfied. A student that always needs his teacher to tell him what to do or how to do things is a failing teacher. |
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12/05/2015 09:55:09 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:
...Who of you is a teacher here? |
Assuming that your question relates to academic credentials, then I would wager that not many in this venue would fit the bill.
However, if we consider the question in light of the development of norms, mores, morals and daily activities, then I would posit that most of us are just that... teachers.
Ray |
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12/05/2015 10:01:58 AM · #21 |
| This is also my last post in this topic as it is not related to photography anymore. Teachers do what is impossible, but we are not magicians and make miracles. It's also the least praised job in the world. Personally I was a terrible kid in class, and used to feel the teachers very boring. Looking back, I know I actually learned things at school. I learned 100times more by self study. but that basic thing of paying attention is crucial. No attention is equal to losing precious time in class. Self discipline, respect, manners, attitude, learning, etc.. are individual personalities. How can a teacher teach someone who is not willing to learn? |
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12/05/2015 11:02:27 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:
This is also my last post in this topic as it is not related to photography anymore. |
Umm....this is General Discussion, and this thread wasn't about photography from the outset.
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:
Teachers do what is impossible, but we are not magicians and make miracles. |
No, teachers teach, every day, in many ways & styles. It's hardly an impossible task, and most of my friends who are teachers are immensely enrichened from their experiences.Nobody remotely realistic expects miracles nor magic.
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:
It's also the least praised job in the world. |
Hyperbole based on no facts whatsoever.
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:
Personally I was a terrible kid in class, and used to feel the teachers very boring. |
Interesting......especially considering this from a post previously.....
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:
People who feel bored all the time are boring people themselves. |
You have a habit of moving the goalposts & contradicting yourself.
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:
Looking back, I know I actually learned things at school. |
The purpose of the formal education system is to teach you how to learn. Unfortunately for all too many of us, we figure that out long before the system cuts us loose to go out into the world and do so. I never had any trouble whatsoever regurgitating the proper responses to the test questions by sixth or seventh grade, and from that point on, the formal system simply slowed down, or impeded entirely, my learning process. In turn, I became that horrible, disruptive, bored, and lazy student all teachers dread. Yet, here I find myself at 60, still learning like crazy as I really started to do once I gave up on school. For instance, I now know, intimately the workings of Brent C & CXC potter's wheels, as I dismantled, inspected, researched, diagnosed, procured parts for, and repaired my GF's first wheel that quit after 30 years of service. But I figured out how to learn about diagnosis & repair by watching others, reading the pertinent info on whatever unit I was repairing, and asking questions via tech support or another mechanic/technician/whatever who was more knowledgeable. I found that my two best traits for learning were the ability to completely accept that I did *NOT* know what I was doing, and that there is *ALWAYS* someone out there who both knows and will help me. I am constantly amazed and delighted at how much I still learn on a daily basis.
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:
I learned 100 times more by self study. but that basic thing of paying attention is crucial. |
I don't exactly understand this statement......it seems like you're mixing discussions in the same sentence. I would hope you would always learn more once you get out in the world and apply your learning skills, though I've met many people who never bothered to apply much in the way of those skills. As to paying attention, again, I have to have something worthy of my time or I can't be bothered.
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:
No attention is equal to losing precious time in class. |
As I stated previously......I have to have something worthy of my attention or I can't be bothered.
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:
Self discipline, respect, manners, attitude, learning, etc.. are individual personalities. |
No, they are personality CHARACTERISTICS, or mannerisms. Respect is earned, not demanded, and attitude is most often responsive.
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:
How can a teacher teach someone who is not willing to learn? |
It's called inspiring the student.
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12/06/2015 07:54:53 PM · #23 |
| we are doing it wrong, we should be paying the students. |
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12/07/2015 07:12:58 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by Mike:
we are doing it wrong, we should be paying the students. |
In many countries they do just that... it's called FREE education.
In this country, we partially pay them through some rather hefty subsidies, albeit the tuition is still a bit rich for most students.
Ray
Message edited by author 2015-12-07 14:18:54. |
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