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06/04/2016 01:10:57 PM · #26
Originally posted by posthumous:

I intended "Manet invented the snapshot" as a provocative, not accurate, statement.


Provocative indeed. Many of Manet's paintings have a snapshot quality that obviously was deliberate if only intuitively so. It's quite reasonable to say he originated the "snapshot" before photographers discovered the form, since spontaneous or candid photography was not possible with equipment of the time.

I think the qualities of Manet's "snapshots" to consider are:
- Frontal or flat lighting
- Human subjects with largely indifferent facial expressions
- Informal, candid poses
- Figures partially cropped out at the edges of the frame

Think of these in Mariuca's example and others like it.


Message edited by author 2016-06-04 13:34:57.
06/04/2016 02:51:18 PM · #27
Good examples from tvsometime
I am adding a few
the balcony
the bar at the follies
cafe concert
the Monet family by MANET
06/04/2016 03:18:11 PM · #28
Originally posted by mariuca:

Good examples from tvsometime
I am adding a few
the balcony
the bar at the follies
cafe concert
the Monet family by MANET


Yes of course! Love the Monet family, particularly.
06/04/2016 06:12:26 PM · #29
Originally posted by tvsometime:

Many of Manet's paintings have a snapshot quality that obviously was deliberate if only intuitively so. It's quite reasonable to say he originated the "snapshot" before photographers discovered the form, since spontaneous or candid photography was not possible with equipment of the time.

I think the qualities of Manet's "snapshots" to consider are:
- Frontal or flat lighting
- Human subjects with largely indifferent facial expressions
- Informal, candid poses
- Figures partially cropped out at the edges of the frame


Yes, & has anyone else noticed that many of his subjects are not looking at (unaware of) the 'photographer?' That's the interesting snapshot quality, for me, it's what reminds me of street photography. And then, it's interesting that he almost always includes the color black in his work, sometimes prominently, sometimes just a ribbon trim. And, notice the shadows. I like the way he does shadows.
06/04/2016 07:32:06 PM · #30
well, thanks for poo-pooing Manet's still lifes... looks like i'm out :-/
06/04/2016 07:36:55 PM · #31
Originally posted by mefnj:

well, thanks for poo-pooing Manet's still lifes... looks like i'm out :-/


I also thought that it was odd that his own paintings were poo-pood about fitting his challenge topic.

*eek*
06/04/2016 07:38:21 PM · #32
Originally posted by mefnj:

well, thanks for poo-pooing Manet's still lifes... looks like i'm out :-/


:)
I would not DNMC-vote a still life, everybody does a still life as a way to practice the craft.
06/04/2016 07:51:12 PM · #33
by docjonny

An excellent example of the sort of thing that would suit this challenge.
06/04/2016 08:21:50 PM · #34
Originally posted by mefnj:

well, thanks for poo-pooing Manet's still lifes... looks like i'm out :-/


No need to not enter. Additionally, I think you should enter what you like, especially if it's "Inspired by Edouard Manet" - that is the challenge that's been given to us.

We're not directed specifically to take a "street" photo in his style, etc..

I find it somewhat shocking the strength of opposition to any still life possibilities for this challenge.

Earlier in this thread there was a post that provided a link to his collection of work. I find it noteworthy that of the 12 images displayed on this page representing the (ranked by popularity) work of Manet that 4 (maybe 5) are Portraits, 2 are Still Life, and the other 6 show people in various setting (note that several of these are rural and not street).

There's plenty of room to play here - why shoot down one aspect so strongly? If you don't like the photos you see when voting, then vote accordingly. Given the discussion here I'll probably give any Still Life entries my top votes.

Best of luck to all.

Oh, if you want to use filters, go for it! You will not be "dead WRONG" as stated earlier.

06/04/2016 08:52:26 PM · #35
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by snaffles:

... in challenges like this, it's almost always dead-on studio replicas that do well. Any kind of spin outside a very narrowly defined box gets kicked to the curb.

Care to point us to some examples? You insinuate some sort of precedence. :-)


Uhm where do I start?! So many examples where, say, Girl with a Pearl Earring has been replicated exactly...leaves no room for anyone else.
06/04/2016 09:05:48 PM · #36
06/04/2016 10:19:31 PM · #37
wtf vermeer is not manet
06/05/2016 12:08:17 AM · #38
Originally posted by snaffles:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by snaffles:

... in challenges like this, it's almost always dead-on studio replicas that do well. Any kind of spin outside a very narrowly defined box gets kicked to the curb.

Care to point us to some examples? You insinuate some sort of precedence. :-)


Uhm where do I start?! So many examples where, say, Girl with a Pearl Earring has been replicated exactly...leaves no room for anyone else.


That's unfortunate. The challenge is to be inspired by Manet, not to recreate his work. Recreations will not get a high score from me if I recognize them.
06/05/2016 10:10:11 AM · #39
These conversations are fascinating to me, because they seem like such an inversion of what OUGHT to be happening. What I hear is "people looking for a consensus on what the challenge 'means' so they can be sure and fit in", and that just seems wrong to me. Members probing other members, everyone trying to get at the core of what's an "acceptable" Manet in the challenge context, presumably meaning "what will the voters like best"? Shouldn't we, instead, be looking at Manet's work, asking ourselves what informs the work, makes it uniquely Manet's, and then conceptualizing from there on our own to pay the master homage?
06/05/2016 10:27:47 AM · #40
Originally posted by snaffles:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by snaffles:

... in challenges like this, it's almost always dead-on studio replicas that do well. Any kind of spin outside a very narrowly defined box gets kicked to the curb.

Care to point us to some examples? You insinuate some sort of precedence. :-)

Uhm where do I start?! So many examples where, say, Girl with a Pearl Earring has been replicated exactly...leaves no room for anyone else.

:-) Ummm ... the "Girl with a Pearl Earring" example was entered in an 'Image Grain' challenge.

Based on your remark "... in challenges like this," I took your comment to mean a challenge of 'In the style of' or 'Inspired by' type thing.

Not a big deal, I was mostly curious as to what you meant exactly.
06/05/2016 10:37:26 AM · #41
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

These conversations are fascinating to me, because they seem like such an inversion of what OUGHT to be happening. What I hear is "people looking for a consensus on what the challenge 'means' so they can be sure and fit in", and that just seems wrong to me. Members probing other members, everyone trying to get at the core of what's an "acceptable" Manet in the challenge context, presumably meaning "what will the voters like best"? Shouldn't we, instead, be looking at Manet's work, asking ourselves what informs the work, makes it uniquely Manet's, and then conceptualizing from there on our own to pay the master homage?

Robert - at least the conversation is taking place BEFORE voting starts. All attempts to influence are being done ahead of time.
06/05/2016 11:05:02 AM · #42
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

These conversations are fascinating to me, because they seem like such an inversion of what OUGHT to be happening. What I hear is "people looking for a consensus on what the challenge 'means' so they can be sure and fit in", and that just seems wrong to me. Members probing other members, everyone trying to get at the core of what's an "acceptable" Manet in the challenge context, presumably meaning "what will the voters like best"? Shouldn't we, instead, be looking at Manet's work, asking ourselves what informs the work, makes it uniquely Manet's, and then conceptualizing from there on our own to pay the master homage?


Amen and thank you for posting this.
06/05/2016 11:39:51 AM · #43
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

These conversations are fascinating to me, because they seem like such an inversion of what OUGHT to be happening. What I hear is "people looking for a consensus on what the challenge 'means' so they can be sure and fit in", and that just seems wrong to me. Members probing other members, everyone trying to get at the core of what's an "acceptable" Manet in the challenge context, presumably meaning "what will the voters like best"? Shouldn't we, instead, be looking at Manet's work, asking ourselves what informs the work, makes it uniquely Manet's, and then conceptualizing from there on our own to pay the master homage?


I think maybe you're picking up only the negative vibes, Bear. There are questions lurking in the background--what does Manet (or any artist) have to say to photography? which elements of his work can be used to inspire a photographer? If we want to be informed voters, how do we recognize Manet's influence in a photograph?

Like this:

Originally posted by pixelpig:

Originally posted by tvsometime:

Many of Manet's paintings have a snapshot quality that obviously was deliberate if only intuitively so. It's quite reasonable to say he originated the "snapshot" before photographers discovered the form, since spontaneous or candid photography was not possible with equipment of the time.

I think the qualities of Manet's "snapshots" to consider are:
- Frontal or flat lighting
- Human subjects with largely indifferent facial expressions
- Informal, candid poses
- Figures partially cropped out at the edges of the frame


Yes, & has anyone else noticed that many of his subjects are not looking at (unaware of) the 'photographer?' That's the interesting snapshot quality, for me, it's what reminds me of street photography. And then, it's interesting that he almost always includes the color black in his work, sometimes prominently, sometimes just a ribbon trim. And, notice the shadows. I like the way he does shadows.
06/05/2016 12:41:35 PM · #44
Originally posted by skewsme:

wtf vermeer is not manet


Well duh...but that's a classic example of what will do well in this challenge...a dead-on replica of a well-known Manet. That was just the first example to crop to mind, a dead-on replica of a very popular image.

Message edited by author 2016-06-05 12:42:52.
06/05/2016 12:48:06 PM · #45
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

These conversations are fascinating to me, because they seem like such an inversion of what OUGHT to be happening. What I hear is "people looking for a consensus on what the challenge 'means' so they can be sure and fit in", and that just seems wrong to me. Members probing other members, everyone trying to get at the core of what's an "acceptable" Manet in the challenge context, presumably meaning "what will the voters like best"? Shouldn't we, instead, be looking at Manet's work, asking ourselves what informs the work, makes it uniquely Manet's, and then conceptualizing from there on our own to pay the master homage?


Because you are an SC official, I'm moved to inquire how far you would want to take this to be politically correct? I'm bothered that you would want to stifle what seems to be a natural, free dialogue about a new topic, especially when Don has stated his intention to be provocative. Proper provocation deserves a response after all. We don't want to disappoint the provocateur.
06/05/2016 01:16:26 PM · #46
I was overly broad in my statement, that's for sure. And it wasn't meant to be "official", certainly. I realize that there's useful discussion also taking place. But at the same time I have seen a lot of "what does the challenge REALLY mean?" verbiage over the years, and it drives me crazy. I'm all in favor of people educating each other on what Manet was really about. I'm a lot less in favor of people trying to develop a consensus on whether a still life (which Manet painted a lot of) is "acceptable" in this challenge, and so forth. I hate seeing threads that drive towards consensus on what's right (or wrong) in a given challenge.

But I'm sorry if I seemed to be stifling legitimate exploration of the World of Manet.
06/05/2016 02:08:50 PM · #47
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

These conversations are fascinating to me, because they seem like such an inversion of what OUGHT to be happening. What I hear is "people looking for a consensus on what the challenge 'means' so they can be sure and fit in", and that just seems wrong to me. Members probing other members, everyone trying to get at the core of what's an "acceptable" Manet in the challenge context, presumably meaning "what will the voters like best"? Shouldn't we, instead, be looking at Manet's work, asking ourselves what informs the work, makes it uniquely Manet's, and then conceptualizing from there on our own to pay the master homage?

Robert - at least the conversation is taking place BEFORE voting starts. All attempts to influence are being done ahead of time.


+1000
06/05/2016 05:47:43 PM · #48
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I was overly broad in my statement, that's for sure. And it wasn't meant to be "official", certainly. I realize that there's useful discussion also taking place. But at the same time I have seen a lot of "what does the challenge REALLY mean?" verbiage over the years, and it drives me crazy. I'm all in favor of people educating each other on what Manet was really about. I'm a lot less in favor of people trying to develop a consensus on whether a still life (which Manet painted a lot of) is "acceptable" in this challenge, and so forth. I hate seeing threads that drive towards consensus on what's right (or wrong) in a given challenge.

But I'm sorry if I seemed to be stifling legitimate exploration of the World of Manet.


FWIW I am sick and tired of putting effort into shooting for challenges like this and deliberately producing images that are in the style of etc, in terms of lighting processing etc but not expected - say in terms of subject matter - and getting slammed for it in terms of low votes. If it isn't something the voters haven't seen before and/or aren't comfortable with, then forget about a good score.

Only those who play safe and copy Manet to a T will do well. As always.

Message edited by author 2016-06-05 17:49:28.
06/05/2016 08:08:30 PM · #49
The problem isn't shooting for this it's voting on it.
People will do homework to shoot but they won't do it to vote.
06/05/2016 08:33:44 PM · #50
Originally posted by nygold:

The problem isn't shooting for this it's voting on it.
People will do homework to shoot but they won't do it to vote.


If participants would vote, they would have done the homework already.
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