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10/08/2016 11:16:58 AM · #1
I have this idea that photography is one of those things that like most pursuits is driven as much by the love of it as anything.

When I have someone approach me for advice, tips, suggestions, I generally find that the reason they've done so in most cases is because they're frustrated. And that is often driven by the critic inside them. And that is all too often based on the preconceived notion that there is some kind of magic formula for photography that they do not know.

As someone who has virtually zero actual photography training, I have had to learn pretty much everything I know from the good people who are willing, and have the patience, to share their wisdom with me. (Cue DPC cheering!)

So.....what I tell most people who ask is to remember that they shot an image on purpose. They saw something that struck them, inspired them, fascinated them.....and that in order to improve and to get them to where they want to be, they need to grab onto that vision and run with it. It's easy to take apart an image, especially if it's your own, and find all the things that are wrong with it. But all too often that results in scrapping perfectly good images that merely need massaging or simply a different perspective.

Perspective is probably the most valuable thing that I've learned here and I'm not talking about it in the context of composition. I'm talking about embracing what you're doing, seeing the vision, and the good, in the images that you were inspired to shoot in the first place.

I would love to work with any and all who might be interested in putting together some kind of outline, list, set of steps, whatever, that would be useful for people learning, or even people who have hit a wall in their own self-development. I have seen too many people give up in frustration when the only thing they really needed was to hear from someone that yeah......it can be frustrating at times, but the magic is *alwys* there, you just need to incorporate your vision, and somne determination, to find it.

BTW, I think that we should also talk about the things that cause us angst and what we want in the way of help to overcome them. So as well as old hands at this sharing wisdomn, I'd like to see/hear from people who are near, or at, that wall, talk about that as well.

Thoughts?

10/08/2016 11:57:11 AM · #2
I'm at a wall.

For someone who has basically entered almost every challenge she could, I've entered one challenge in close to a month. And having a hard time bothering.

My wall is that I'm a 51 year old who hasn't had a job for the last 13 years (by choice). When we moved here, I wanted to be a mom full time. I was a computer consultant, but am completely out of touch now. Because of college costs, I really need to find something, but it's a small tourist town and all there really is are service jobs. It's hard going from consultant to cashier. So I kept telling myself I should do senior portraits to at least bring in some money. I look at the stuff being done and think that I could do it. But I haven't done anything about it because I'm afraid of failing. I am not comfortable with it. I'm lousy at putting people to ease. I hate making small talk, because I don't do it well. I hate going to parties for that very reason. When I go to the hair dresser, I'd rather just sit and close my eyes, because I can't think of what to say.

So this year I know a lot of families with kids graduating -- my son included. So I was just going to shoot a couple of them for free, so that I had a good portfolio.

In the meantime, I did a shoot for the in-laws of a friend of mine. I ended up refunding their money, because they didn't like any of them.

Yeah. That really helped the confidence level.

NOT!

I've stopped the idea of doing any of the senior portraits, and I've basically just shut down.

The thing is: I'd love to be able to do good portraits. I don't think I want to do it as a business. For the challenges here, that's what I want to shoot: photos with people. I've even put my stupid face in so much more often because I don't have my daughter around anymore who was a willing model. I want to learn the lighting. I want to get better. But I don't think I'm good enough to be working at it.

It's hard to get past the wall.

The good part is the continually wanting to get better. The striving, the fighting, having it not being enough. But then when you think you're getting there, you see the truly good, inspired people here, and it's just deflating. Look at Judi, Tangy, JoeyL (well, ok, that's reaching a little bit far). There's a difference between the artists and the copiers. My mom painted (copied, recreated, whatever) an Andrew Wyeth painting. She said she could copy anything, but couldn't create anything original. I'm finding out the same thing. I can do almost any needlework project, but give me a pattern.

I'm rambling. But since Jeb opened the flood gates, I'm leaving this here.

When we're stuck, we don't need people to tell us we're good. We don't need platitudes.

We need help figuring how to get unstuck.

What would help me is more discussions. Someone to help. Someone to help me. People to bounce ideas off. People bouncing ideas off me.

The "shoot for yourself" mantra doesn't work for me. I have never shot for myself, and really have no interest in doing so. Pandering to the crowds has become a bad thing on the forums here. But that's the "myself" that I shoot for. I WANT to shoot things that strike a chord with others. That's what I like doing.

I almost cheered out loud when I was listening to NPR the other day. I caught a small section of an interview with an author. The author basically said: Screw those people that say you should write for yourself. If I wanted to do that, I'd write in a diary and stick it under my pillow. I want my stuff to be read!

So for all of you who want your pictures to be seen, who want to shoot for others: go for it!! There's nothing wrong with that!!

But that walls are just as hard and just as high, and hurt just as much when you keep bashing your head against them.

So anyone who's a bloody mess -- let us know how to get past that damn wall! (unless we're just in a maze and it's all walls... Then maybe I don't want to know.)

10/08/2016 12:08:37 PM · #3
Originally posted by vawendy:

My wall is that I'm a 51 year old who hasn't had a job for the last 13 years (by choice). When we moved here, I wanted to be a mom full time. I was a computer consultant, but am completely out of touch now. Because of college costs, I really need to find something, but it's a small tourist town and all there really is are service jobs.

I suggest going to online job sites and look for computer consulting jobs that allow you to work remotely. They're out there.
10/08/2016 01:38:32 PM · #4
Rambling is good.....if enough of us just dump out what we think and feel relative to this good things will happen. Chords will be struck, ideas will resonate, people will relate, and ideas will germinate.

First and foremost, understand that I have always and do very much admire your photography. You can do bird shots like I can only dream of doing. I'm okay with that, though...,.,.it just isn't one of my strong areas. C'est la vie...
Originally posted by vawendy:

So this year I know a lot of families with kids graduating -- my son included. So I was just going to shoot a couple of them for free, so that I had a good portfolio.

You don't necessarily have to shoot for free, but you can offer satisfaction guarantees. When I do a shoot for someone, I always ask for a preliminary trial shoot "Just to see if we work well together". Sometimes I even do that before we discuss fees. I can shoot some people easily and well, others.....not so much. I have this one friend whom I shootfrom time to time and in three years I've never gotten one decent shot. I have another friend's daughter who is an attractive, but not necessarily gorgeous young woman, but boy does she ever photograph well. I've never gotten a bad shot of her. It saves grief if a short shoot that you're willing to gamble on turns out to be one of those jobs that simply does not work.
Originally posted by vawendy:

In the meantime, I did a shoot for the in-laws of a friend of mine. I ended up refunding their money, because they didn't like any of them.

Yeah. That really helped the confidence level.

NOT!

Okay.....but what did YOU think? Just because they didn't like them doesn't mean they aren't any good......maybe they are expecting something no photographer could make happen. You cannot work miracles......you're just the photographer.

Don't base your potential to do these kind of jobs on one, or even a very few shoots.

Originally posted by vawendy:

I've stopped the idea of doing any of the senior portraits, and I've basically just shut down.

Don't base your potential to do these kind of jobs on one, or even a very few shoots.

Originally posted by vawendy:

The thing is: I'd love to be able to do good portraits. I don't think I want to do it as a business. For the challenges here, that's what I want to shoot: photos with people. I've even put my stupid face in so much more often because I don't have my daughter around anymore who was a willing model. I want to learn the lighting. I want to get better. But I don't think I'm good enough to be working at it.

It's hard to get past the wall.


Ya know.....it's funny. I really like a lot of your people shots. I think portrait, wedding, and event photography have many different facets. I *hate* shooting a wedding as the "official" photog. Just the whole "NO do-over" thing scares the crap out of me. What if I have a bad day? What if circumstances conspire to make the job unbelievably difficult? Then you're screwed. You have to be able to reconcile pushing the bridal party around to suit your needs, and that whole concept mortifies me. But you have to do that if you're charging big bucks and *must* produce.

I will say that I have almost always been charmed by incredible luck when I go to a wedding with my camera with the intent of being a roaming camera. I virtually always get a half dozen shots that are honest-to-goodness cherish-for-life shots. I never know what they're going to be, but I luck into them. These are three from my GF's daughter's wedding.

            


*ALL* complete right place, right time shots. The one of them in the field was a shot I got in between what the wedding photographer was doing for the "official" shoot. Elizabeth (The bride) even included a couple of the images I shot in her wedding book.

So....take a different approach to what the task at hand is. If you're doing a senior pic, do it in an abandoned building, on a patio overhung with flowering vines, or even on a busy street.....it doesn't have to be with lights in front of a mottled grey backdrop. If someone wants you to get shots of their wedding, tell them to hire a pro, but also tell them if they feed you, you'll go to their wedding with your camera and get a few absolute keepers. The experience will be wonderful and virtually all the pressure is off. From what I've seen of your work, I'd want you to do that at my wedding.

Originally posted by vawendy:

The good part is the continually wanting to get better. The striving, the fighting, having it not being enough. But then when you think you're getting there, you see the truly good, inspired people here, and it's just deflating. Look at Judi, Tangy, JoeyL (well, ok, that's reaching a little bit far). There's a difference between the artists and the copiers. My mom painted (copied, recreated, whatever) an Andrew Wyeth painting. She said she could copy anything, but couldn't create anything original. I'm finding out the same thing. I can do almost any needlework project, but give me a pattern.

Crap!

Just because your style and talents go in a different direction doesn't mean that you're not talented, or even as talented as someone whose work you admire. I can't play the piano but I can assemble a Jaguar engine in my sleep. Different talents, different directions.

Originally posted by vawendy:

I'm rambling. But since Jeb opened the flood gates, I'm leaving this here.

Oh, suuuuuuuure! Blame me! m 8~)

Originally posted by vawendy:

When we're stuck, we don't need people to tell us we're good. We don't need platitudes.

We need help figuring how to get unstuck.


Originally posted by vawendy:

What would help me is more discussions. Someone to help. Someone to help me. People to bounce ideas off. People bouncing ideas off me.

Yeah, that!!!

Originally posted by vawendy:

The "shoot for yourself" mantra doesn't work for me. I have never shot for myself, and really have no interest in doing so. Pandering to the crowds has become a bad thing on the forums here. But that's the "myself" that I shoot for. I WANT to shoot things that strike a chord with others. That's what I like doing.

I almost cheered out loud when I was listening to NPR the other day. I caught a small section of an interview with an author. The author basically said: Screw those people that say you should write for yourself. If I wanted to do that, I'd write in a diary and stick it under my pillow. I want my stuff to be read!

But you HAVE to shoot for yourself. Otherwise you can't shoot for someone else. Yeah, maybe you can't ever shoot like someone who shoots how you like to see, but that doesn't mean you can't develop something purely your own. That's why I have no use for FaceBook, and also why I prefer to practice here. I'm with people who will give me their honest impressions and opinions.
Originally posted by vawendy:

So for all of you who want your pictures to be seen, who want to shoot for others: go for it!! There's nothing wrong with that!!

Yes. But remember that you're still shooting AS you to convey you when you're shooting to be seen.

Originally posted by vawendy:

But that walls are just as hard and just as high, and hurt just as much when you keep bashing your head against them.

So stop bashing your head agauinst that wal, go get a rope and a grappling hook and scale that sucker. Parachute in from a chopper. Get a 'dozer and go THROUGH the freakin' wall.

Originally posted by vawendy:

So anyone who's a bloody mess -- let us know how to get past that damn wall! (unless we're just in a maze and it's all walls... Then maybe I don't want to know.)

Okay.....how the heck do you shoot birds so well?????
10/08/2016 01:43:14 PM · #5
Wendy, you express yourself so well in writing. If you're looking for a change in work you might think about building a portfolio in writing.

So, you're looking for your audience. "All" you need to do is find people who want their photograph taken as much as you want to take it.
10/08/2016 01:43:15 PM · #6
Hi Wendy. A friend of mine that used to participate here used a model service called Model Mayhem for getting practice in with portrait work. For him it was a win-win scenario. Might be worth a look.

As for computer consulting I get the feeling you may be somewhat anxious about your current skillset. I've been in software development / computer programming for 17 years now and while much of it does change, some of the core concepts are still there (i.e. OOP, base web-development, etc...). Some self-study could get you back up to speed pretty quickly.

Definitely check with any job agencies in the area ...

... and, don't sell yourself short on your photography skills - you have an eye for it for sure! :-)

10/08/2016 09:17:56 PM · #7
I was just watching tv, thinking about nothing, & got this idea. Probably not going to be a popular idea. If you're stuck, an interesting exercise is to write a mission statement, or artist statement, or manifesto. What are you doing here? What is your purpose, your obsession, your question? What are you looking for, hiding from? What was your first experience with photography? Or you could let me interview you, photo essay style. Start with a photograph that pleases you & respond to questions I ask about it. Or anyone who wants to play along asks you about it. It could be fun.
10/08/2016 10:04:29 PM · #8
Interesting thread!

I recently had two experiences that might be a good addition to this exchange.

#1
A friend of mine from tango asked to borrow a camera and lens from me so that he could shoot an aerial show that a friend of his was doing. He asked if he could share the images with me afterwards and get some feedback. He has experience with film cameras, so he's not totally new to photography. He came over and while we were looking through his images, I was fascinated by hearing myself talk about the image and his reaction to my comments. I realized that since taking up the camera 6 years ago, I have learned SO much, and it has become SO second nature. Many of his images had great content, but were poorly, or not optimally, framed. In some the lighting was very unflattering. Etc., etc. I told him that when reviewing images, I try to be aware of where my eyes go the instant I view an image. That tells me a lot about what message the image is conveying. It was rather surreal, as so much of what I was sharing was so blatantly obvious to me, and totally new info to him.

Lesson from #1 - sharing your knowledge with someone else can be a mindblowing experience for YOU.

#2
Today I did some headshots for a friend of mine who is in the process of moving with her husband to NY to produce a show they've been working on for years. In all the million details, getting her headshots done was left to the last minute, and she was under all sorts of stress. She hired a hair/makeup lady, and they came to my studio. I have a very mundane way of getting my subjects to relax, and that's to work on the light setup while they sit there. Usually by the time the lights are set, they've warmed up to the space, the flashing strobes, etc. Depending on whether they need it or not, I also instruct them on where to look, how or if to tilt their head, etc. She just could not relax. And the longer we were going, the worse it got. Both the MUA and I could see this was in danger of bottoming out, as now she was ragging on her hair not cooperating, her wardrobe being wrong, etc. Between the two of us, we managed to get everything under control, and finished out the session (which is usually 30 minutes, turned into 3 hours) with some laughter and fantastic shots.

Lesson from #2 - some shoots are brutal. And some just fail altogether. Nobody is infallible. What separates the pros from the wannabes is how you handle it.

Now: Wendy.

First, it is admirable that you still have goals to achieve. And that you still feel weak in some areas. But the only way to grow is ALSO acknowledge your strengths and build on those. The only way to get better at shooting people is, well, to shoot people! You live in a service-oriented town. That's brilliant. Every one of the business owners is a potential model. Start with stores you frequent. Ask the owner or store manager if they could use some new photos for their site/biz cards/promo materials. Tell them you'll do it for free since you're expanding into this line of photography and need to grow your port. If they seem interested, tell them you'll come to them, and then book a time.

If you're worried about lighting, get a mannequin and practice at home. Put a wig on it, a hat, dress them up anyway you might see a client, and work on it until you're reasonably comfortable with the results.

Finally, you can always ask for help from anyone here. I'd be more than happy to "mentor" you from afar in any way I can.

ETA - there is no rule that says you have to do small talk with your clients. More often than not, they're the ones that are all chatty, and all you have to do is say uh huh, oh?, really, cool.

Message edited by author 2016-10-08 22:06:39.
10/08/2016 11:15:12 PM · #9
Originally posted by tanguera:

Lesson from #1 - sharing your knowledge with someone else can be a mindblowing experience for YOU.

I try to make it a point in welcoming newbies that you will "learn" more from the comments you make on others' photos than from the comments made on your own ... one day I was in the (clinical) lab explaining a staining process to a new worker when I realized that the best way to be sure you know something is to teach it to someone else.
10/09/2016 09:25:32 AM · #10
Originally posted by pixelpig:

I was just watching tv, thinking about nothing, & got this idea. Probably not going to be a popular idea. If you're stuck, an interesting exercise is to write a mission statement, or artist statement, or manifesto. What are you doing here? What is your purpose, your obsession, your question? What are you looking for, hiding from? What was your first experience with photography?

A kind of self-induced retrospective. Sometimes reviewing and/or writing down impressions, revisiting ideas, and asking those questions does help.
Originally posted by pixelpig:

Or you could let me interview you, photo essay style. Start with a photograph that pleases you & respond to questions I ask about it. Or anyone who wants to play along asks you about it. It could be fun.

That sounds like a very cool idea!

What do they call that???? Your turn in the barrel?

Seriously, that sounds quite intriguing.
10/09/2016 09:34:00 AM · #11
Originally posted by tanguera:

Lesson from #1 - sharing your knowledge with someone else can be a mindblowing experience for YOU.

I was explaining to a customer the other day what I did, and why, to diagnose & repair his car, and part way through I realized how comfortable and confident I felt at imparting this knowledge to the man. It was a terrific feeling.
Originally posted by tanguera:

Lesson from #2 - some shoots are brutal. And some just fail altogether. Nobody is infallible. What separates the pros from the wannabes is how you handle it.

Yep......some days....

Not even separating the pros, per se......it's a case of being able to accept that you did your best but for reasons out of your control, or whatever, it just didn't go as planned. This too shall pass.
Originally posted by tanguera:

Now: Wendy.

First, it is admirable that you still have goals to achieve. And that you still feel weak in some areas. But the only way to grow is ALSO acknowledge your strengths and build on those. The only way to get better at shooting people is, well, to shoot people! You live in a service-oriented town. That's brilliant. Every one of the business owners is a potential model. Start with stores you frequent. Ask the owner or store manager if they could use some new photos for their site/biz cards/promo materials. Tell them you'll do it for free since you're expanding into this line of photography and need to grow your port. If they seem interested, tell them you'll come to them, and then book a time.

If you're worried about lighting, get a mannequin and practice at home. Put a wig on it, a hat, dress them up anyway you might see a client, and work on it until you're reasonably comfortable with the results.

Finally, you can always ask for help from anyone here. I'd be more than happy to "mentor" you from afar in any way I can.

ETA - there is no rule that says you have to do small talk with your clients. More often than not, they're the ones that are all chatty, and all you have to do is say uh huh, oh?, really, cool.

Yeah! There's that DPC community thing!

The tango-shooting portrait goddess wants to help!

Go Johanna!
10/09/2016 10:25:41 AM · #12
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by pixelpig:


[quote=pixelpig]Or you could let me interview you, photo essay style. Start with a photograph that pleases you & respond to questions I ask about it. Or anyone who wants to play along asks you about it. It could be fun.

That sounds like a very cool idea!

What do they call that???? Your turn in the barrel?

Seriously, that sounds quite intriguing.


That does sound cool...might even come around again for something like that.
10/09/2016 11:33:16 AM · #13
This is a great thread! Thank you Jeb
I
I have noticed with my photography is that the only time I have feel like I have advaned is when it was around DPL and when we were collaborating with others. I ate up that feedback and just loved every moment of it.

I loved that feedback and holding hands per sey seeing others points perspective on how to create my own thing but add a different view, style ect. Processing thing in editing. That is huge and not too many wish to share their way they do things, I know I have had help over the last couple years and without that help I would not be where I am today. I owe alot to my friends and this community to get me to where I am now.

This sounds super cool maybe make this some sort of a side challenge thing. I am always up for help and advice from others, especially if they can help me go past my basic knowledge stuff I know. Getting in a rut is so easy but it has always been the DPL that has pushed me past my next level of learning and has given me that new coal of fire to burn to keep that passion going.


Message edited by author 2016-10-09 11:35:36.
10/09/2016 12:13:37 PM · #14
Great stuff in this thread! Thanks, Jeb.

I think the interview stuff sounds cool!

I am definitely going to pick Tangy's brain.

And I found a way out of the rut, for awhile at least. I realized what's been bothering me with the lighting since I bought the alienbees and Einstein. More on that in a bit, I have to run now. But it helps to go over your notes that you've taken in the past. It's time to actually sit down an work on it again. Anyone who wants to play with lighting, I'm going to start up a lighting thread again. It's time to start talking through things.

Now I just need to get my camera back. I sent it in for cleaning for the first time since I wasn't bothering to shoot. My point and shoot that I got for Christmas also has problems, and I need to send that in, as well.

10/09/2016 12:53:43 PM · #15
Originally posted by RKT:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by pixelpig:


[quote=pixelpig]Or you could let me interview you, photo essay style. Start with a photograph that pleases you & respond to questions I ask about it. Or anyone who wants to play along asks you about it. It could be fun.

That sounds like a very cool idea!

What do they call that???? Your turn in the barrel?

Seriously, that sounds quite intriguing.


That does sound cool...might even come around again for something like that.


What do you think of this, then.

Post a group of 3-5 photos/comps, one at a time. I will comment in the form of questions, but anyone my also contribute questions. You can respond to those questions as you wish. The group of photos, with commentary, could be edited down to a suitable posting in the ongoing Photo Essay Side Challenge. See the August 2016 posting.
10/09/2016 01:01:13 PM · #16
Originally posted by vawendy:

I realized what's been bothering me with the lighting since I bought the alienbees and Einstein. More on that in a bit, I have to run now. But it helps to go over your notes that you've taken in the past. It's time to actually sit down an work on it again. Anyone who wants to play with lighting, I'm going to start up a lighting thread again. It's time to start talking through things.


So, I have a question re lighting. Wendy, you have an eye for photo-worthy natural light. What is it that attracts you to studio light?
10/09/2016 01:37:05 PM · #17
Originally posted by pixelpig:

Originally posted by vawendy:

I realized what's been bothering me with the lighting since I bought the alienbees and Einstein. More on that in a bit, I have to run now. But it helps to go over your notes that you've taken in the past. It's time to actually sit down an work on it again. Anyone who wants to play with lighting, I'm going to start up a lighting thread again. It's time to start talking through things.


So, I have a question re lighting. Wendy, you have an eye for photo-worthy natural light. What is it that attracts you to studio light?


Actually, it's not really the studio lighting in general, it's the dramatic lighting that I want to be able to do. You'll notice that I keep playing with the dark end of things. There's a particular look that I'm going for. I think it's more towards the old masters' deep, intriguing lighting. And actually, that's probably part of my problem. I have a vague picture in my mind, and I know it's not there, but I'm not sure that I know exactly what I want. I need to go look more.

I just found a notebook where I first started taking notes on lighting and it said: The bigger and closer the light, the softer it is. And so I just realized why I haven't been happy since I bought the studio lights. I bought a really big softbox, so the lighting has been quite flat. I keep using a strip box with a grid for the main lighting, because I can't get the shadows I was getting with the flash and modifiers. Well... yeah... because it's a big softbox that I've been putting in close!

It's time to start really sitting down and exploring and actually writing things down. For some reason, lighting just does not stick in my mind. It's not intuitive to me.

So anyway, it's the drama that intrigues me. I'm thinking more and more that light is the most important part of a really good photo. A great subject is all fine and dandy, but I've seen some incredible shots of completely inane things that sing because of the lighting. And we can control that. It's like being able to harness the sun. (if we can do it!)
10/09/2016 04:37:34 PM · #18
Originally posted by vawendy:

It's like being able to harness the sun.


OK. This is the only part of what you said that I understand.

10/09/2016 07:33:40 PM · #19
Originally posted by vawendy:

I think it's more towards the old masters' deep, intriguing lighting.


Like this?


10/09/2016 07:57:40 PM · #20
10/09/2016 08:55:38 PM · #21
Sounds fun Wendy
10/13/2016 01:01:30 PM · #22
I'm hoping this thread won't die out. Anyone interested in pursuing this?
10/13/2016 02:48:57 PM · #23
I fully plan to continue it when I have a bit more time. I want to start with the lighting experiments again. I just need to get through the next couple of weeks. Right now I've entered one challenge in the next month. I want to get back to entering first before I start just playing with photography. (Hopefully I'll have my camera back soon, too. It's down at canon.)
10/13/2016 03:17:06 PM · #24
Any of these similar to what you want to do?
        
10/13/2016 09:43:36 PM · #25
This is what I want to do. :D



And there was a saxophone player shot that I saw somewhere with incredible rim lighting. But I never bookmarked it. I don't even know if it DPC or 1x or somewhere. I've looked for it a number of times, but never found it again.

I want the dramatic lighting -- that's so breathtaking that it really doesn't matter who the subject is. That's all. I'm not really asking for much. :)

But I also need to just get some good lighting, as well. I'm fixing too much in post right now. So hopefully in a couple of weeks I'll start back at the beginning and put myself through the right paces again.
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