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03/02/2017 09:57:04 AM · #26 |
Signed up last week and I see voting discussion here is no different than elsewhere.
-- Exponential Rating -- My photo ratings are according to an exponential scale (okay, a small base). Yes, I consider a photo with a rating of 5 to be exponentially better than a photo with a rating of 4, likewise for the difference between a rating of 9 and 8. Using the scale here, I'd have an extremely hard time rating any photo a 10.
EEBA (Thinks people just like to complain about things out of their control)
Message edited by author 2017-03-02 09:58:30. |
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03/02/2017 10:34:49 AM · #27 |
| If I don't get a good helping of really low votes then I know i'm doing something wrong. |
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03/02/2017 11:26:04 AM · #28 |
| Low votes aren't surprising to me on some entries I've posted--they were poor. It is disappointing when 1's and 2's hit the better entries with no reason given. I'm sure it's been suggested before but why not have 1 & 2 and 9 &10 votes require a comment to be counted. That shouldn't be too difficult for those who are being unbiased and honest with their votes. |
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03/02/2017 11:32:42 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by crik:
I'm sure it's been suggested before but why not have 1 & 2 and 9 &10 votes require a comment to be counted. That shouldn't be too difficult for those who are being unbiased and honest with their votes. |
Apart from anything else i'd imagine it would be impossible to enforce efficiently. I could just say, 'I am giving this a 1.' That would do with any software requirements.
I don't think any reason should have to be given for peoples votes and tastes really. There's nothing inherently wrong with giving a photo a 1 vote even if everyone else gives it a 10. |
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03/02/2017 11:40:11 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by rooum:
Originally posted by crik:
I'm sure it's been suggested before but why not have 1 & 2 and 9 &10 votes require a comment to be counted. That shouldn't be too difficult for those who are being unbiased and honest with their votes. |
Apart from anything else i'd imagine it would be impossible to enforce efficiently. I could just say, 'I am giving this a 1.' That would do with any software requirements.
I don't think any reason should have to be given for peoples votes and tastes really. There's nothing inherently wrong with giving a photo a 1 vote even if everyone else gives it a 10. |
Correct. Let me add to that: we USED to have a requirement that votes of 3-or-lower must be commented to and it was wildly unpopular. It's very inhibiting to feel one has to justify one's vote, and of course by commenting one sort of brands oneself as the giver-of-the-vote, which can lead to various forms of retaliatory targeting. So that's no good.
Let me ask everyone this: would it be in any way reasonable, or even helpful, to just cut the voting scale down to 5-10? That way EVERYONE could have a 5 or better average... Would any of you feel better about that? (This question is NOT targeted to  crik in any way, this just seems to be a good place to bring it up...) |
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03/02/2017 11:46:55 AM · #31 |
LOL, 5 is the new 1. Let me vote "No."
I really don't want to engage in a long-winded lecture on voting statistics, but let me just say that in the rather substantial amount of analysis of DPC voting stats that I've done at times over the past 15 years, the voting stats for *most* images are relatively "Gaussian" or normally distributed. That's a testament to the fairness of the DPC voting system.
We all receive low votes, and it is disconcerting. Hell, I'm going through that now with my February FS entry, LOL. But those votes are part of the distribution, just like the high ones. It's a "challenge" to take them with a grain of salt. |
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03/02/2017 01:03:22 PM · #32 |
Bear, I love the idea of the voting scale being 5 to 10. We would have to reset our evaluations which would be a welcome change especially for people who have been
voting 1-10 for 15 years. I think change is good and that it would mix things up and in a positive way. People who think that voting low enhances their chances are going to
continue but for the most part it might give us all a psychological boost...at least we get the chance to change the tired old images on our home page.
When I think about it I pretty much vote 4 to 10 right now. I rarely if ever vote below a 3 and if I do I leave a comment as to why. I know that is wildly unpopular and unenforceable
but I see it as fair. |
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03/02/2017 01:15:32 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
LOL, 5 is the new 1. Let me vote "No."
I really don't want to engage in a long-winded lecture on voting statistics, but let me just say that in the rather substantial amount of analysis of DPC voting stats that I've done at times over the past 15 years, the voting stats for *most* images are relatively "Gaussian" or normally distributed. That's a testament to the fairness of the DPC voting system.
We all receive low votes, and it is disconcerting. Hell, I'm going through that now with my February FS entry, LOL. But those votes are part of the distribution, just like the high ones. It's a "challenge" to take them with a grain of salt. |
+1
It's the law of averages.....it will just settle in on a different place......and remain there.
Thing is, the middle of the road images are pretty much a blur.....not great, not bad, so if they're not truly noteworthy then what difference does it matter if it's a 4.xxx or a 5.xxx? 6.xxx scores are creeping up on potential Top 10s in this day, and 3.xxx scores let you know that it's an image not well received. The minutiae in the middle really doesn't matter, does it?
I believe that most of the folks who have been here for a while could pretty much score their own images realistically within a half point.....but hope springs eternal....8~)
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03/02/2017 01:17:27 PM · #34 |
| If it's numbers that are the concern. Let's make the scale 10-20 then. Then folks would be complaining about getting 10's. No, that wouldn't work either. |
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03/02/2017 01:24:15 PM · #35 |
With a voting scale between 5-10 you are only fooling yourself. Getting artificial high scores seems nice, but at the end it is also about your position in the challenge. Ending bottom half with a 6+ score is rather stupid. Furthermore, with only 6 possible votes, the chance for getting ties is quite substantial, making the ranking list even more messy with all those 'image removed' markings.
No, I think when you want to consider another voting system, you could think of the system used by Gurushots. Not a voting scale, but simply vote when you like the image and that vote gets more weight when the voter has more achievements (e.g. number of submissions). |
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03/02/2017 01:34:45 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by Kroburg:
... but at the end it is also about your position in the challenge. |
It's really only about your position (percentile ranking) at the end. Someone who finishes first with a score of 4.8 still had the "best" picture in the challenge, and getting a "brown ribbon" with a score of 7 means you still had the "worst" picture ...
Every time we've done a detailed analysis of overall voting patterns we've found that the results are well-within statistical norms. If you need to feel better about your numerical score you can do what I do and just add a 1.6 "DPC voter correction factor" to your score ... |
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03/02/2017 02:53:21 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
...do what I do and just add a 1.6 "DPC voter correction factor" to your score ... |
Only 1.6??
Heck I've been using 2.5 for years! ;-) |
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03/02/2017 03:28:06 PM · #38 |
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03/02/2017 03:30:56 PM · #39 |
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03/02/2017 05:56:51 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
...do what I do and just add a 1.6 "DPC voter correction factor" to your score ... |
Only 1.6??
Heck I've been using 2.5 for years! ;-) |
I'm starting to use a "blue ribbon factor." I award myself the blue ribbon regardless of my score, making my photo better than the lower scoring photos. As for the higher scoring photos, they didn't get the blue because they were over-hyped. Simple. My track record has really improved with this approach. |
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03/03/2017 06:00:33 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:
I recently feel that voters are not so generous anymore with giving points. Why is there such a trend since the last few months? It's getting much harder to reach a 6. These challenges are not a contest for the worlds' best pictures. Make DPC fun again. |
I'm not sure why you think that people giving higher scores will "Make DPC fun again. ? . |
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03/03/2017 08:41:00 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by Tiny:
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:
I recently feel that voters are not so generous anymore with giving points. Why is there such a trend since the last few months? It's getting much harder to reach a 6. These challenges are not a contest for the worlds' best pictures. Make DPC fun again. |
I'm not sure why you think that people giving higher scores will "Make DPC fun again. ? . |
That's a very good point. It is what you make of it. But I do think the recent observation is correct. |
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03/03/2017 08:52:24 AM · #43 |
| I would love to see one of my photos in the top three but also realize I still have lots to learn. As a professional in my line of work it takes time to become a pro and if you're open to learning you can learn something new every day. It may take a little longer for me than most to remember all the steps for getting from a to z but I just keep chugging along. I highly praise all of you who have been here from the beginning. Change is just a part of life even in styles of photography. |
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03/03/2017 10:04:45 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by Tiny:
I'm not sure why you think that people giving higher scores will "Make DPC fun again. ? . |
Perhaps because getting votes of 1, 2, or 3 on an image you have created can be disheartening, discouraging, and depressing? |
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03/03/2017 10:53:00 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by markwiley:
Originally posted by Tiny:
I'm not sure why you think that people giving higher scores will "Make DPC fun again. ? . |
Perhaps because getting votes of 1, 2, or 3 on an image you have created can be disheartening, discouraging, and depressing? |
Then don't enter (or develop thicker skin). Votes of 1, 2, and 3 are just as valid as 8, 9, and 10. Art is subjective - all photos entered will be met with a wide ranging view of expectations and personal bias. |
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03/03/2017 11:05:57 AM · #46 |
There have been endless and cyclical discussions about voting and "what to do about it" and to my delight, the answer is always "nothing".
That said, the discussions themselves are sometimes enough to potentially influence voters (that participate in the forums) to at least think about how they vote. So they play a positive role, IMO. |
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03/03/2017 11:17:49 AM · #47 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by markwiley:
Originally posted by Tiny:
I'm not sure why you think that people giving higher scores will "Make DPC fun again. ? . |
Perhaps because getting votes of 1, 2, or 3 on an image you have created can be disheartening, discouraging, and depressing? |
Then don't enter (or develop thicker skin). Votes of 1, 2, and 3 are just as valid as 8, 9, and 10. Art is subjective - all photos entered will be met with a wide ranging view of expectations and personal bias. |
Yes art is subjective, but can you fault someone who is technically bang on? |
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03/03/2017 11:26:36 AM · #48 |
Originally posted by booboo_goon:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by markwiley:
Originally posted by Tiny:
I'm not sure why you think that people giving higher scores will "Make DPC fun again. ? . |
Perhaps because getting votes of 1, 2, or 3 on an image you have created can be disheartening, discouraging, and depressing? |
Then don't enter (or develop thicker skin). Votes of 1, 2, and 3 are just as valid as 8, 9, and 10. Art is subjective - all photos entered will be met with a wide ranging view of expectations and personal bias. |
Yes art is subjective, but can you fault someone who is technically bang on? |
Sure. Many ways. The subject material may be offensive. Maybe it's not creative (given the challenge theme, etc...). What is technically correct? Maybe a soft focus approach is better in one case versus another. The range of reasons can be large. On the flip side, why would a blurry, out of focus, image receive votes of 8 or greater? Those may not be technically correct - but they connected with the person casting the vote. On, and on, etc ...
"... endless and cyclical ..." as Ken says. :-) |
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03/03/2017 11:58:20 AM · #49 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by markwiley:
Originally posted by Tiny:
I'm not sure why you think that people giving higher scores will "Make DPC fun again. ? . |
Perhaps because getting votes of 1, 2, or 3 on an image you have created can be disheartening, discouraging, and depressing? |
Then don't enter (or develop thicker skin). Votes of 1, 2, and 3 are just as valid as 8, 9, and 10. Art is subjective - all photos entered will be met with a wide ranging view of expectations and personal bias. |
I was merely commenting on how a trend toward lower scores can affect overall morale on the site. I would not mind the folks that heavily use the lower end of the voting scale consider shifting it up. As great as the images are that you give a ten, hopefully the 1's equally awful. |
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03/03/2017 12:28:51 PM · #50 |
The difficulty for me is this--do I evaluate the photo in isolation, judging it against my rules of excellence, or do I evaluate the photo in competition against the other photos in the challenge, or do I evaluate it against all the photos I've ever seen? The more photos I see, the more difficult it seems to ignore them and judge the photo in isolation. The more photos I see, the more seldom I'm wowed. And cameras of today make it difficult to take a technically awful picture. Which is why I love the blurry mess photos so much.
I assume we are all in pursuit of excellence each in our own individual way.
When I first started voting here I hadn't seen that many photos, so the context of my evaluation has changed. In a way, the lower score trend indicates our widening experience as photographers. So if you want your photos to be evaluated by very experienced eyes, this seems to be the perfect place.
Message edited by author 2017-03-03 12:33:04. |
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