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07/09/2017 09:47:09 AM · #1
Is anyone else bothered by the vote totals in the June FS?!

Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1202343.jpg

The 3rd place entry got 27% - twenty-seven percent fewer votes than the first place. The red (my entry) got over 10% fewer.

How is this possible?
How is this allowable?
And furthermore how does that impact the results?

Let's look at the first two entries, each of which received a vote of 3 (from nameless, faceless, and non-commenting coward(s) who likely spends evenings lighting bags of fecal matter on neighbors' porches and running away for no reason other than they can).

The 3 for the blue has less of an impact on the total score than the red's 3 by 10%:
- Strip the Blue's 3 and it's 7.4, and increase of 0.0786
- Strip the Red's 3 and it's 7.347, an increase of 0.087

It swings both ways meaning that the Red's 10 boosts the score by a higher percentage, so this is not about one finishing lower than the other, it's about a level playing field.

I'm tired of a whole lot of nonsense here that gets poked at while voting just goes any way the wind blows. I don't give a damn about ribbons - sure they're nice. But why should I spend the time to enter a challenge that will be adjudicated by some seemingly random set of criteria and number of people that allows me, after a week of watching scores vary wildly (with some magically disappearing at the end and others not), to know that the cheese I entered is really good but not as good as the apple pie that someone else entered in the custom car show?!

Message edited by author 2017-07-09 09:57:05.
07/09/2017 10:08:12 AM · #2
my pic came well down and has few votes but has more views in voting than the ribbons lol, i guess people like looking at it but not voting on it

i remember the days of 300+ votes on every challenge :(
07/09/2017 10:21:42 AM · #3
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

Let's look at the first two entries, each of which received a vote of 3 (from nameless, faceless, and non-commenting coward(s) who likely spends evenings lighting bags of fecal matter on neighbors' porches and running away for no reason other than they can).


Right, that's the only possible type of person who could give a 3 to your photo of yet another hummingbird centered in the frame. I gave you a 5, but the next time I give you a 3, I'll be sure to let you know after rollover.
07/09/2017 11:20:55 AM · #4
I think that thems the breaks the voters are free to make what ever call they want,I would say a 3 is better than a 1 or 2 which I frequently get. the vote difference was all the others where on holiday that week.and didn't bother

I would say stop stressing about things that are now past \, Enjoy your ribbon and placing. Many of us will never achieve the heights of glory. savour those and move on.

I gave your image an 8 BTW
07/09/2017 11:39:31 AM · #5
It seems that until Langdon is willing to make the changes necessary to level the playing field that DPC will continue
to limp along and keep disappointing people.
In order to stay you have to accept that it is broken and dysfunctional but still worth playing. I have chosen to stay
because of the friends I have made and because I have no expectations of fairness. I struggle with the art/photography contradictions and this is a good place to be in that context.

Changes could be made to make
things more fair but they won't be. Maybe when Langdon retires and has some free time, when most of us are dead.

07/09/2017 12:24:36 PM · #6
Not a bit, but thanks for asking.
07/09/2017 12:28:56 PM · #7
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

Let's look at the first two entries, each of which received a vote of 3 (from nameless, faceless, and non-commenting coward(s) who likely spends evenings lighting bags of fecal matter on neighbors' porches and running away for no reason other than they can).


Right, that's the only possible type of person who could give a 3 to your photo of yet another hummingbird centered in the frame. I gave you a 5, but the next time I give you a 3, I'll be sure to let you know after rollover.


Did I say this was about my 3? I don't think so - I used the number as it was a score received by bothe the first and second place images.

To be clear, it's long been a nit for me with the sh*t and run voters here and the utter lack of wilingness of many persistently low voters to justify a lower 1/3 percentile on not just an image but on the majority of the images they evaluate (it's also a nit that there is no standard even suggested by the site, but that's a separate nit that's been exhausted in discussion already).

You are not the problem, Don, you are the exception to it. A 5 on a well taken and well processed photo that lies outside your idea iof photographic "art" is, to me at least, perfectly acceptable and justifiable because it at least acknowledges that it's not pure crap but just not your taste - I find myself going there on over structured and tightly haloed HDR stuff all the time. And sure, when something is well taken but glaring not to your liking then throwing a 3 at is is within everyone's right because, were voting not anonymous, most of us would be able to explain precisely what it was that made use cast that vote. But when 3 is your standard for anything that doesn't tickle your fancy I find it does nothing to serve the forum and makes you a bit of a twat as I see it. A person is free to be just that but don't expect me not to call them on it. And if you look thru the average votes cast by some here you can see precisely who the people are that I am addressing.

But again I'm not bitching about the numbers given, I'm wondering aloud about the wild variation in the number of people who applied numbers to the images. I understand that within the rules you can choose not to vote for something, but when there's nearly a 30% difference in the number of votes in a challenge with fewer than 60 voters something needs to change if we're ever to stop wondering why it is no one wants to participate here any more.



Message edited by author 2017-07-09 12:37:25.
07/09/2017 01:29:40 PM · #8
"But again I'm not bitching about the numbers given..."

You just spent a paragraph above doing just that...and then said particular low voters, those that don't get a pass from you were "a bit of a twat". People really don't want to know why they got low votes, they really don't. Those that really want to know are an anomaly. I see lots of complaining and no suggestions as to how to fix this other perceived problem. The numbers of votes swings throughout the whole challenge, not just the first page.

People are going to vote how they see fit. It was a holiday week here and that may have messed with things...don't know, and I really don't care. It's an online photo challenge website and has been around longer than most others. Something must be working right.
07/09/2017 01:35:28 PM · #9
Jake, do you have any realistic ideas for how to SOLVE this?
07/09/2017 01:42:08 PM · #10
oh boy. the day I am whipped into shape so I can vote according to what the complainers think is fair, my time here is over. this is making me wish I HAD given out 3's and 2's and 1's. really. You who complain, let me ask what makes you think YOUR judgement is fairer than others'.

eta to correct apostrophes.

Message edited by author 2017-07-09 13:43:27.
07/09/2017 01:56:11 PM · #11
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

when there's nearly a 30% difference in the number of votes in a challenge with fewer than 60 voters something needs to change if we're ever to stop wondering why it is no one wants to participate here any more.


So, in order to get more people to participate we have to get more people to participate.

To echo what you've said in the most dramatic way possible, the first place photo got 36% more votes than the third place photo. Anomalies like that are far less likely when more people vote.

I do have one constructive suggestion. I have a suspicion that the photos are not in random order. If every voter saw the photos in a different random order, it would make voting anomalies less likely.
07/09/2017 02:09:25 PM · #12
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

when there's nearly a 30% difference in the number of votes in a challenge with fewer than 60 voters something needs to change if we're ever to stop wondering why it is no one wants to participate here any more.


So, in order to get more people to participate we have to get more people to participate.

To echo what you've said in the most dramatic way possible, the first place photo got 36% more votes than the third place photo. Anomalies like that are far less likely when more people vote.

I do have one constructive suggestion. I have a suspicion that the photos are not in random order. If every voter saw the photos in a different random order, it would make voting anomalies less likely.


Don - from the FAQ:
In what order do entries appear on the voting page?
Each voter sees the entries in a different, random order. This ensures all participants an equal opportunity to receive votes and comments.
07/09/2017 02:55:26 PM · #13
Jake, I've read your original post several times, and I'm still not 100% clear on what it is you're complaining about.

At first I thought you weren't happy that some entries attracted more (or less) votes than others. But voting on every entry isn't compulsory, and never has been.

Then I thought that you weren't happy that the number of votes cast is lately so low that one outlying score can overly influence the results. But surely that can't be your point, because some of the most prestigious photo contests in the world have judging panels of less than 10 people, and nobody suggests that that isn't a level playing field.

Finally I figured out that you must be unhappy that someone voted 3 on a ribbon-winning image and left no explanation. But no explanation is required and never has been.

I often vote ribbon-winning images as low as 3 (though never lower; 3 is my personal basement). I do it if they are relentlessly boring, formulaic, mawkish or otherwise inconsequential, according to my personal judgement. If the picture is any or all of those things, the standard of photographic technique involved is then irrelevant to me; it's a picture that would have been better not taken at all in my view. Conversely, I often score as 8 or higher entries that end up on the last results page, because they are not boring, nor formulaic, and they capture my imagination. I'm a judge, and those are my judgements.

I didn't give you a 3, by the way. But if I had, I would not have explained: who really wants to read a comment that says, "Your picture is boring, formulaic, mawkish and of no consequence. Thank you."?

07/09/2017 03:06:28 PM · #14
Originally posted by ubique:

... who really wants to read a comment that says, "Your picture is boring, formulaic, mawkish and of no consequence. Thank you."?

Actually, I think anyone who is interested in "improving" their photography should want to read it -- it might not be an enjoyable experience, but it is informative about how at least one person sees their image.
07/09/2017 03:26:39 PM · #15
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by ubique:

... who really wants to read a comment that says, "Your picture is boring, formulaic, mawkish and of no consequence. Thank you."?

Actually, I think anyone who is interested in "improving" their photography should want to read it -- it might not be an enjoyable experience, but it is informative about how at least one person sees their image.

How about a specific challenge to encourage honest critiques. I think they might continue into other challenges and then die off again eventually, but then we could do it again.
07/09/2017 04:13:23 PM · #16
Originally posted by sfalice:

Originally posted by posthumous:

I have a suspicion that the photos are not in random order. If every voter saw the photos in a different random order, it would make voting anomalies less likely.


Don - from the FAQ:
In what order do entries appear on the voting page?
Each voter sees the entries in a different, random order. This ensures all participants an equal opportunity to receive votes and comments.


Fake News!!!
07/09/2017 04:13:28 PM · #17
Jake I really don't understand why you are so aggressive about this. I would be simply happy to get the ribbon number 1000 with a hummingbird photo (the new northern lights).

Everyone should take everything less seriously.
07/09/2017 04:46:28 PM · #18
I'm on another site and they have daily competition if you don't vote on every image your entry is removed from the contest
07/09/2017 06:14:21 PM · #19
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Jake, do you have any realistic ideas for how to SOLVE this?


I do... eliminate "voting from the thumbs." It's really the only way to keep folks from trying to cherry-pick what they will vote on.

Now that I've said that, I will add "be careful what you ask for." The cure may be worse than the disease, if you will. If we think vote totals are low now (they certainly are compared to historic levels) wait until we piss off voters by insisting on the random order of presentation.

FWIW, I have never and will never vote from the thumbs, and when I vote a challenge I vote the *entire* challenge. I challenge others to do the same.
07/09/2017 07:46:52 PM · #20
I don't understand it, I never have since day one of DPC.. I don't understand it now after a couple yrs nor am I ever going to try, I think its one of those hidden secrets that will never be told

So goes the day of our lives

My behind shot I had Votes: 65
The blue ended up with Votes: 69

I have made amazing friendships here and for that I am grateful.

Message edited by author 2017-07-09 19:52:57.
07/09/2017 08:55:53 PM · #21
There were 119 submissions and maybe an average of 50 votes per picture. It may not make a difference, but I feel it would be only fair that if one submits a picture that they be required to vote on that challenge. frankly it seems selfish to me that one would expect others to vote on their picture but they would not reciprocate.
07/09/2017 09:00:05 PM · #22
I am so bummed that Jake has left. He was a team member and is such a generous and talented person. I am technically challenged and often he would make tutorials
and send them to me so that I could see exactly what had to be done.
He thinks that you either vote on all entries or if you do not, your image is removed. He has little patience for things he considers to be unfair. I will really miss him.
We all should, he was an asset to this community.
07/09/2017 10:18:50 PM · #23
what? Jake has left? unfair.
07/09/2017 11:06:58 PM · #24
I don't think he left; he never mentioned taking his toys and leaving. I think he had a puzzling moment of looking too close to marks given by fellow photographers in a Free Study challenge.
Cannot follow the percentage and such but he made me look at the stats for a second; Blue ribbon for a NG whale marked at 7.3214 by 56 voters and 7.26 NG bird by 50 voters. Nothing seems "fair" to me. In a FS with 116 images there should have been at least 115 votes.
Half of the participants did not vote but expected high marks.

Jake, I could never be able to take a good, technically informative shot of a bird, not even in a cage and I do not particularly want it to be fair. I marked yours with 6 in appreciation for your effort and knowledge but I saw plenty of images similar to yours and I would like to be surprised by a different way of looking at things, by a thought, by a novel way of thinking, especially in a FS. As you noticed, no low marks from me. I just thought that it's probably harder to catch a tempestuous whale than a bird and therefore left a comment for the whale that had an eerie elegance. But neither images got my enthusiasm.

I believe that the only thing that we can ask people is to vote on all images, and for the participants to vote also independently of the score they're given.
07/10/2017 12:24:22 AM · #25
I hope you're right Mariluca. I hope he participates again. I've seen a thousand hummers too, but I think his crop, the close up
smack in the middle of the page with the exquisite detail around the eye and feathers and then the motion blur at the center
sets it apart and got my attention. It seems aggressive and defiant in a way and then the water colors soften it and bring it back down.
It demands attention, or at least it held mine.
Is it art? I think he is a wildlife photographer experimenting with new ways of presenting subjects that have been photographed a billion
times before. He is getting there. I hope he'll be around and so we can watch his conversion.
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