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DPChallenge Forums >> Hardware and Software >> Full frame vs crop vs mirrorless, etc.
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07/17/2017 08:46:13 PM · #1
Yes... Another which camera thread.

It's time to give up on my 7D. (Anyone want to buy it? It has a new shutter...)

Number of questions:

Since I'm switching and easily irritated with nose, should I be considering full frame? Or will I really regret not having the reach since I still love nature photography most of all?

I can only probably go to around $1500 or so. (And I'm not sure where that's coming from...)

I'll try renting before I buy. I was thinking about trying the 7D mark II, is there a mirrorless I should try?

I saw some camera (I think it was mirrorless) that showed the changes through the view finder when you made aperture changes, +/- changes, etc. Is this as cool and functional as it seems?

07/17/2017 10:10:14 PM · #2
I can say that my Olympus Micro 4/3, which was not a current model when I got it, takes better pics than my Canon 50D or Rebel T3i. Don't know how it would compare to the 7D, however, and I think my requirements are different from yours. Next purchase for it is the Tamron 14-150.
07/17/2017 10:16:37 PM · #3
At your target budget, ditch the idea of FF. Your shooting M.O. seems to be really well served with APS-C in any case :-)
So 7D MK II or perhaps 80D... the 80D has the newest generation of sensor, and the AF on the 80D is well respected. If your budget stretches to $2k, the 6D Mk II is about to start shipping (apparently has in NZ, not in North America). Price is $1999. AF seems to be similar to the 80D, but AF points don't cover as much of the frame. Dunno if I'd spring for the 7D II now, or wait out the 7D III, likely to be 2nd half of next year.

ETA: Mirrorless? Perhaps, if AF speed and tracking are not your prime concerns. Canon is not a leader in mirrorless, so you might be saddled with wholesale lens replacement, or using an adapter.

Message edited by author 2017-07-17 22:18:50.
07/17/2017 11:29:43 PM · #4
Originally posted by kirbic:

At your target budget, ditch the idea of FF. Your shooting M.O. seems to be really well served with APS-C in any case :-)
So 7D MK II or perhaps 80D... the 80D has the newest generation of sensor, and the AF on the 80D is well respected. If your budget stretches to $2k, the 6D Mk II is about to start shipping (apparently has in NZ, not in North America). Price is $1999. AF seems to be similar to the 80D, but AF points don't cover as much of the frame. Dunno if I'd spring for the 7D II now, or wait out the 7D III, likely to be 2nd half of next year.

ETA: Mirrorless? Perhaps, if AF speed and tracking are not your prime concerns. Canon is not a leader in mirrorless, so you might be saddled with wholesale lens replacement, or using an adapter.


She shoots a lot of wildlife, so I would think AF speed and tracking would be two big concerns for her.
07/18/2017 08:17:38 AM · #5
Now could be the time to consider moving to mirrorless.
Lots of articles available. These two might help.

Olympus for Wildlife Photography

David Thorpe - on the Omd Em1 Mark II
07/18/2017 08:55:01 AM · #6
Just a comment about "reach" with a cropped sensor camera. The increased telephoto effect is only apparent, as it's simply less of the image falling onto the sensor with any given focal length. But, you knew that.

The newest generation of full frame sensor cameras from Canon are really great on handling noise. I can shoot at ISO3200 all day and not see significant electronic noise problems. (Although most of my nature shots are still ISO400 or ISO 800.)

Alas, your budget of $1500 is a constraint that takes all of my suggestions off the table. So, I'm not much help.
07/18/2017 10:15:06 AM · #7
AF speed is extremely important, but I don't use the tracking, because it's not fast enough. I'm better doing it by hand.

Does it matter if you need an adapter for lenses with mirrorless? Does it slow things down too much?

I think I'd have to stick with a mirrorless that took my Canon lenses, because I just don't have the money for good glass.

Message edited by author 2017-07-18 10:17:16.
07/18/2017 10:30:12 AM · #8
Sony a7ii would fill the bill perfectly for you, I think. You can buy an adaptor that fits your Canon glass (we have one) and keep that mounted on the body.
07/18/2017 11:42:12 AM · #9
Originally posted by vawendy:

...I don't use the tracking, because it's not fast enough. I'm better doing it by hand.


If you feel you're better off doing it by hand, you definitely need to get your hands on and test a camera with a latest generation AF system. Try to test an 80D, you should see significant benefit. I've been frankly blown away by the tracking performance of the 5D IV. Caveat: I came from the 6D, which does not have an AF system that is all that for tracking.

Originally posted by vawendy:

Does it matter if you need an adapter for lenses with mirrorless? Does it slow things down too much?


It can slow things down a somewhat; not dramatically. Robert can probably give you a really good read on this.

Originally posted by vawendy:

I think I'd have to stick with a mirrorless that took my Canon lenses, because I just don't have the money for good glass.


You definitely don't want to ditch all your Canon glass in any case. If you should decide that mirrorless is too much of a transition, you want a path of retreat. Keep in mind that the mirrorless bodies are small, and balance/ergonomics may become an issue, especially with the adapter thrown into the equation.
07/18/2017 12:23:40 PM · #10
Originally posted by kirbic:

Keep in mind that the mirrorless bodies are small, and balance/ergonomics may become an issue, especially with the adapter thrown into the equation.

Balance isn't an issue because one ought to be holding the camera by the lens anyway. More to the point, when you use the a7 range Sony's there's actually not a significant saving in weight, although the camera itself is a much more compact design. The Canon lenses far outweigh the bodies, and so do the best Sony/Leitz lenses. Good glass = lots of mass. The benefits of the system come from elsewhere. Image quality is profoundly good, noise is reduced a lot, ergonomics are excellent, control layout is terrific, EVF allows seeing the actual exposure you have dialed in (unless you turn that feature off) and so on. Plus, if you have one good, light fixed-focal length lens it's a tidy walk-around package, although for me the new Samsung Galaxy S8+ has taken over that job...
07/18/2017 12:48:50 PM · #11
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by kirbic:

Keep in mind that the mirrorless bodies are small, and balance/ergonomics may become an issue, especially with the adapter thrown into the equation.

Balance isn't an issue because one ought to be holding the camera by the lens anyway. More to the point, when you use the a7 range Sony's there's actually not a significant saving in weight, although the camera itself is a much more compact design. The Canon lenses far outweigh the bodies, and so do the best Sony/Leitz lenses. Good glass = lots of mass. The benefits of the system come from elsewhere. Image quality is profoundly good, noise is reduced a lot, ergonomics are excellent, control layout is terrific, EVF allows seeing the actual exposure you have dialed in (unless you turn that feature off) and so on. Plus, if you have one good, light fixed-focal length lens it's a tidy walk-around package, although for me the new Samsung Galaxy S8+ has taken over that job...


+1

I have around me friends and colleagues who are constantly switching to Sony. The future is there, no doubt. A7II and the new 100-400 Sony and your life will be better.

And if you want a super AF in an APSC Body get the A6500 - stabilized body and super AF.

Message edited by author 2017-07-18 12:50:56.
07/18/2017 03:16:07 PM · #12
No Wendy, you do NOT want a Sony A7II. ;-)
07/18/2017 03:54:45 PM · #13
Originally posted by Bear_Music:


Balance isn't an issue because one ought to be holding the camera by the lens anyway...


Perhaps I wasn't clear... when using one of the Sony cams with even a moderately large lens (85/1.4), it feels like I'm shooting with a lens with a small growth on the back. Ergonomically, it's not the best for me, though that impression may just be due to the novelty of it.
07/18/2017 04:05:26 PM · #14
You should try it with a 70-400! LOL

Actually not terrible with the A7. The A6500 is a different story. :-)
07/18/2017 04:11:47 PM · #15
Originally posted by glad2badad:

You should try it with a 70-400! LOL

Actually not terrible with the A7. The A6500 is a different story. :-)


I wrote in my post that A6500 AF is much better. But if you use A7II with native lenses it can have a much better AF. Of course still far from A6500.
07/18/2017 04:15:38 PM · #16
Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:


Balance isn't an issue because one ought to be holding the camera by the lens anyway...

Perhaps I wasn't clear... when using one of the Sony cams with even a moderately large lens (85/1.4), it feels like I'm shooting with a lens with a small growth on the back. Ergonomically, it's not the best for me, though that impression may just be due to the novelty of it.

Heck, I shoot the a7r with an adapter and Canon's 100-400 push-pull behemoth and I quite like the way it feels. It had always been my dream to have a camera that was all lens :-)
07/18/2017 05:08:05 PM · #17
Originally posted by Alexkc:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

You should try it with a 70-400! LOL

Actually not terrible with the A7. The A6500 is a different story. :-)


I wrote in my post that A6500 AF is much better. But if you use A7II with native lenses it can have a much better AF. Of course still far from A6500.

Oh, no, I meant size-wise... Performance was very good with both. Actually I owned the A6000, but is the same size as the A6500 physically.
07/18/2017 05:12:14 PM · #18
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by Alexkc:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

You should try it with a 70-400! LOL

Actually not terrible with the A7. The A6500 is a different story. :-)


I wrote in my post that A6500 AF is much better. But if you use A7II with native lenses it can have a much better AF. Of course still far from A6500.

Oh, no, I meant size-wise... Performance was very good with both. Actually I owned the A6000, but is the same size as the A6500 physically.


Ah ok, I didn't get it. The shape of A6000/A6300/A6500 is not wonderful, of course...
07/18/2017 05:17:36 PM · #19
Originally posted by Alexkc:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by Alexkc:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

You should try it with a 70-400! LOL

Actually not terrible with the A7. The A6500 is a different story. :-)


I wrote in my post that A6500 AF is much better. But if you use A7II with native lenses it can have a much better AF. Of course still far from A6500.

Oh, no, I meant size-wise... Performance was very good with both. Actually I owned the A6000, but is the same size as the A6500 physically.

Ah ok, I didn't get it. The shape of A6000/A6300/A6500 is not wonderful, of course...

Plus no EVF, which is a deal-breaker for me.
07/18/2017 06:01:29 PM · #20
Ok. Getting my list of things to try.

Next step is to rent and make sure it's the right thing.

I know that Art and folk had a good recommendation from where to rent. Anyone remember what it was? ( I can go look for the thread when my kid gives me back my computer... But just in case. )

You guys are awesome, as always! I love having knowledgeable people.
07/18/2017 06:40:55 PM · #21
all those Sony Alpha a's have EVF's.
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Alexkc:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by Alexkc:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

You should try it with a 70-400! LOL

Actually not terrible with the A7. The A6500 is a different story. :-)


I wrote in my post that A6500 AF is much better. But if you use A7II with native lenses it can have a much better AF. Of course still far from A6500.

Oh, no, I meant size-wise... Performance was very good with both. Actually I owned the A6000, but is the same size as the A6500 physically.

Ah ok, I didn't get it. The shape of A6000/A6300/A6500 is not wonderful, of course...

Plus no EVF, which is a deal-breaker for me.
07/18/2017 06:44:06 PM · #22
Yes!

A6300 Af and EVF

Originally posted by tnun:

all those Sony Alpha a's have EVF's.
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Alexkc:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by Alexkc:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

You should try it with a 70-400! LOL

Actually not terrible with the A7. The A6500 is a different story. :-)


I wrote in my post that A6500 AF is much better. But if you use A7II with native lenses it can have a much better AF. Of course still far from A6500.

Oh, no, I meant size-wise... Performance was very good with both. Actually I owned the A6000, but is the same size as the A6500 physically.

Ah ok, I didn't get it. The shape of A6000/A6300/A6500 is not wonderful, of course...

Plus no EVF, which is a deal-breaker for me.
07/18/2017 07:33:10 PM · #23
Hey... Wait!!!

The a7 ii only has 5 fps... The 6300 has my 11 of my 7d.

Why the heck would I want the a7??!
07/18/2017 11:17:36 PM · #24
I was thinking of a different camera, LOL. That one that's all thin back with a grip on the right, all LCD on the back and no viewfinder... Found it; the Sony NEX. Hate that camera. 6500 looks pretty cool. But it's crop-sensor. Good for Wendy maybe, I'm a FF guy :-)
07/19/2017 02:45:45 AM · #25
Originally posted by vawendy:

Hey... Wait!!!

The a7 ii only has 5 fps... The 6300 has my 11 of my 7d.

Why the heck would I want the a7??!


Good point: get the A6300/A6500 :)

Differences between​ 6300 and 6500 are mainly stabilized sensor and touchscreen (and an improved menu). Sensor is the same
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