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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Announcements >> "Improper White Balance" Results Recalcualted
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07/23/2017 12:36:16 AM · #1
The former 4th-place image in "Improper White Balance" has been disqualified because the photographer 3was unable to provide a true original; the JPGs had been transferred via QuickTime and this caused a change in the date stamp :-( Congrats to our new honorable mention!
07/23/2017 12:51:45 AM · #2
all 35 entries should be disqualified because they entered a post-processed jpg file.
07/23/2017 04:00:25 AM · #3
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:

all 35 entries should be disqualified because they entered a post-processed jpg file.


excuse me
07/23/2017 04:47:05 AM · #4
Originally posted by Tiny:

Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:

all 35 entries should be disqualified because they entered a post-processed jpg file.


excuse me


When clicking the shutter on a camera, the data needs to be archived on a media (sd, CF, etc..)in camera. But before that the JPG compression will modify the data according to the settings of the user. Technically this is post-processing.
If I take a picture with my cellphone, I can choose to process an image after with some apps, but I can use a build-in effect that will do the same as what my camera does when saving the data as a jpg.
In minimal this will be disqualified, because it was processed by the software. Providing an unaltered version is impossible. There isn't any. This is an original file. If I enter a strongly modified picture using those building filters in a minimal editing challenge, how will this be different from a "straight out of the camera" jpg picture.
07/23/2017 05:42:39 AM · #5
You lost me early on ,but thanks i,m sure you are correct.
07/24/2017 12:35:27 AM · #6
Can't you use any filter or tool that is applied live as the photo is shot, in camera, just not after the shot is taken?
07/24/2017 01:13:32 AM · #7
Originally posted by blindjustice:

Can't you use any filter or tool that is applied live as the photo is shot, in camera, just not after the shot is taken?

In *principle*, the idea of Minimal Editing is to constrain the photographer in much the same way we were constrained by color slide film back in the day; the idea is to take straightforward, unembellished-by-gimcrackery photographs. In the beginning, this wasn't an issue because we didn't HAVE decent camera phones with off-the-wall processing effects packaged in them, but now that's commonplace, and many "real" cameras have that stuff too.

As Georges has correctly pointed out, EVERY image from a digital camera, technically, has to be post-processed after exposure or we can't even view it. A lowly, straight-from-camera JPG image is FULL of processing information that reflects automated OR photographer input; white balance, contrast, exposure, all sorts of stuff. We have "camera styles" to choose from a menu that are more-or-less the equivalent of choosing a different slide film, and that was always copacetic, but now... now...?

From a SC POV, there's not actually anything in the rules that prohibits something like this in Minimal Editing:

Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1202186.jpg

Yet, at the same time, the image is about as far from the INTENT of Minimal Editing as one can get; obviously, that's a heavily-processed image. Georges knows it, we know it. We encouraged him to enter the image in order to make a point, and we validated it even though we wish we didn't have to. So that's the question for you forum-reading, challenge-entering DPCers:

Do we, collectively, even CARE if wild, off-the-wall in-camera processing allows the production of non-realistic JPGs like this that pass EXIF muster? Bearing in mind that MY phone, at least, produces HDR images with legal provenance on demand, and single-JPG panoramas that also would pass muster. This is a discussion we probably need to have...

Message edited by author 2017-07-24 01:16:42.
07/24/2017 05:04:38 AM · #8
Skip Minimal Editing completely, than we don't have these kind of discussions anymore or ribbons/HM's taken from people because of change in data due to the way it was transferred from camera/phone to computer. With all the possibilities now in-camera or by use of phone apps, this whole 'minimal editing' thing is outdated and should be deleted from the editing rules.
07/24/2017 06:24:26 AM · #9
Originally posted by Kroburg:

Skip Minimal Editing completely, than we don't have these kind of discussions anymore or ribbons/HM's taken from people because of change in data due to the way it was transferred from camera/phone to computer. With all the possibilities now in-camera or by use of phone apps, this whole 'minimal editing' thing is outdated and should be deleted from the editing rules.


... or, change the rule set to read 'SOOC' (Straight out of camera). There is still a skill to composing an image correctly from the get-go and having a photograph that is pleasing / worthy, without having to jump thru hoops in post-processing.

... or, just eliminate both minimal and expert and just run 'Standard' all the time. :-D
07/24/2017 08:00:20 AM · #10
I'm with 21.gif Kroburg, to be honest. It seems crazy to me that heavily processed images like Georges' would pass muster cause all that work was done in-camera, but if I were to enter an image like this Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1080800.jpg which, btw, IS a Minimal entry - and then dared to do something very minor like tweak it by a couple of degrees in order to level the horizon - then I get DQ'd for breaking a rule. Yet it's clearly a photo, and not a heavily processed one. And this is a competitive photography site, not a competitive illustration site.

I think Minimal ran its course a long time ago, like Basic did. For awhile I was all for keeping Minimal but if it's going to turn into a farce

Message edited by author 2017-07-24 08:01:06.
07/24/2017 08:27:18 AM · #11
Originally posted by snaffles:

... and then dared to do something very minor like tweak it by a couple of degrees in order to level the horizon ...

Therein lies the challenge. Get the horizon level on initial capture. Minimal still forces forethought before you push the shutter.
07/24/2017 08:32:35 AM · #12
Originally posted by Kroburg:

Skip Minimal Editing completely, than we don't have these kind of discussions anymore or ribbons/HM's taken from people because of change in data due to the way it was transferred from camera/phone to computer. With all the possibilities now in-camera or by use of phone apps, this whole 'minimal editing' thing is outdated and should be deleted from the editing rules.


put this man to the top of the class and make him king too
07/24/2017 08:37:32 AM · #13
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by snaffles:

... and then dared to do something very minor like tweak it by a couple of degrees in order to level the horizon ...

Therein lies the challenge. Get the horizon level on initial capture. Minimal still forces forethought before you push the shutter.


Except that you can't really plan a shot like the one 21_F.gif snaffles posted. By the time you check whether the horizon is level, the opportunity is gone.
07/24/2017 09:05:54 AM · #14
Since all photos are processed, does it really make a difference if it is done in the camera or on a computer? Does it really matter if a photographer chooses to spend more time getting everything "correct" in camera or to spend more time at the computer after the shot? Isn't the end result more important than the road chosen to get there?

When I see that a challenge is minimal, I automatically write it off. I don't usually vote on minimal challenges either, although when I have voted there have been some great entries.

My vote would be to do away with the Minimal category.
07/24/2017 09:38:50 AM · #15
Originally posted by GinaRothfels:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by snaffles:

... and then dared to do something very minor like tweak it by a couple of degrees in order to level the horizon ...

Therein lies the challenge. Get the horizon level on initial capture. Minimal still forces forethought before you push the shutter.


Except that you can't really plan a shot like the one 21_F.gif snaffles posted. By the time you check whether the horizon is level, the opportunity is gone.

Again ... that's the challenge. Get it right (or get lucky) ... submit as an entry with the perceived flaw, or not.
07/24/2017 09:39:47 AM · #16
Originally posted by Elaine:

Since all photos are processed, does it really make a difference if it is done in the camera or on a computer? Does it really matter if a photographer chooses to spend more time getting everything "correct" in camera or to spend more time at the computer after the shot? Isn't the end result more important than the road chosen to get there?

When I see that a challenge is minimal, I automatically write it off. I don't usually vote on minimal challenges either, although when I have voted there have been some great entries.

My vote would be to do away with the Minimal category.

Completely agree with your arguments here. Well said!!
07/24/2017 09:40:22 AM · #17
I think there is a difference between using a pre-processed jpeg in camera to meet the minimal ruleset and processing a photo after it's downloaded. It's ok if one uses an art filter to provide a desired result because all the thinking is done before the shutter is clicked. You need to know what your camera can do, compose, get the settings correct, etc... all before the picture is taken.
The problem with Georges image is solved by the voters, who didn't perceive it as improper white balance, hence the brown ribbon.

Message edited by author 2017-07-24 09:42:23.
07/24/2017 09:40:49 AM · #18
Originally posted by Elaine:

Since all photos are processed, does it really make a difference if it is done in the camera or on a computer? ...

Yes, actually, it does - if you're shooting for the challenge in the spirit of what "Minimal" means. That is to get the shot right in the beginning - as Robert pointed out earlier, to mimic the challenge of shooting like you did with film.
07/24/2017 09:46:03 AM · #19
I still think that we should change the name from "Minimal" to "SOOC".

As has been pointed out by SC, let the voters decide if something is "too much" or not. Same goes with Expert challenges ... there are entries with barely any processing, and then you have the opposite extreme where the end product doesn't look anything like a photo anymore.

Same can apply to a SOOC challenge ... if the photographer chooses to use wacko in-camera filters that is their choice. How the voters respond is the equalizer. It's been that way in Minimal challenges for a while now ... slight in-camera filter use, etc...

Bottom line - the "Challenge" is to use your camera to the best of your ability as a tool. Know it's features. Know how to capture the photo correctly with proper composition. Get better at timing your shot if it's an action scene, etc...
07/24/2017 10:18:17 AM · #20
Originally posted by glad2badad:

As has been pointed out by SC, let the voters decide if something is "too much" or not.

I tend to agree with letting the voters decide. Not only does that put the results in the hands of the community, it also takes some of the burden off of SC.

Originally posted by glad2badad:

I still think that we should change the name from "Minimal" to "SOOC".

Does this mean you want to allow in-camera editing after the image is shot? I'm not sure I understand the reason for re-naming.
07/24/2017 10:31:33 AM · #21
Originally posted by tate:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

As has been pointed out by SC, let the voters decide if something is "too much" or not.

I tend to agree with letting the voters decide. Not only does that put the results in the hands of the community, it also takes some of the burden off of SC.

Originally posted by glad2badad:

I still think that we should change the name from "Minimal" to "SOOC".

Does this mean you want to allow in-camera editing after the image is shot? I'm not sure I understand the reason for re-naming.


Well, I'm not sure ... what would you suggest? I think submissions should be allowed with in-camera filters, etc... I'm not familiar with other edits outside of selecting various menu choices. Do some cameras allow in-camera edits such as cropping? I'd think that would alter the original ... I know it does on my phones camera (if cropped it shows as an edited version). I'd try to avoid that type of action in the rules if possible (kind of defeats my philosophy of getting the capture right on shutter release in regards to composition).
07/24/2017 12:24:08 PM · #22
I would like to see Minimal Editing limited to non-digital (film), pinhole cameras. (Yes, validation would be a challenge… )

Minimal Editing in its current form is an exercise in repression, I favor any pre-processing filters/apps that add options to the Minimal ruleset.

07/24/2017 12:28:13 PM · #23
Originally posted by Elaine:

Since all photos are processed, does it really make a difference if it is done in the camera or on a computer? Does it really matter if a photographer chooses to spend more time getting everything "correct" in camera or to spend more time at the computer after the shot? Isn't the end result more important than the road chosen to get there?

When I see that a challenge is minimal, I automatically write it off. I don't usually vote on minimal challenges either, although when I have voted there have been some great entries.

My vote would be to do away with the Minimal category.


and Elaine as queen
07/24/2017 01:47:36 PM · #24
Thinking out loud here:

Now that DPC will allow us to enter an oversize image and will automatically resize it to 1200 pixels, maybe we should just eliminate ALL post-processing post-download (no dust cloning, no sharpening, no rotation) and require entry of the actual full-size JPG WITH the EXIF appended :-)
07/24/2017 02:05:07 PM · #25
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Thinking out loud here:

Now that DPC will allow us to enter an oversize image and will automatically resize it to 1200 pixels, maybe we should just eliminate ALL post-processing post-download (no dust cloning, no sharpening, no rotation) and require entry of the actual full-size JPG WITH the EXIF appended :-)

Wait? We could clear dust bunnies in Minimal?

... but otherwise, yep, I'd be for that change. However, it still wouldn't change the fact that we can apply a boatload of in-camera filters, special effects, etc...
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