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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> Gack!! Minimal is frustrating!
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09/25/2017 04:01:50 PM · #26
Originally posted by salmiakki:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:


Anyway, I'm just thinking in public, so to speak. SC hasn't even had any discussion on this yet, and I was curious what the reaction of the forum habitues would be to the idea.

In the "old days" I would say this is a good idea, but now the forums are so inactive is it really representative? As I suggested a couple of posts ago, what about a poll? At least regular visitors to the site do at least respond to those. Last year there was a poll about minimal with 254 respondents. That's a heck of a lot more people than we generally get around here.

Oh, if it seems to warrant more serious consideration we'll do a poll too, never fear. I'm just getting a discussion going here, seeing what ideas pop up. Quite fruitful thus far :-)
09/25/2017 04:38:31 PM · #27
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Paul:

But do you like what ends up on the front page....?

I don't think the mission statement of the site is to provide a superior photo gallery for the public -- it is to help people become "better" photographers by challenging them to do something out of their normal process.

Now, people seem to be complaining that it's too much work to get a beautiful image under the Minimal rule set, not that it's impossible -- but isn't that rather the point of it being a "challenge?" Learning how to exert better control over your equipment, composition and lighting is a bad thing?


Hmm... is that mission relevant for a community of seasoned DPC'ers?

It's a key question though - the identity of the site. But that may be a separate issue as to whether the photographic process ends with the shutter click. With digital, in 2017, I don't believe it does.

And actually, viewing (and voting on) great photos is something many of us want to do on DPC.

How many people are here to learn? Perhaps another poll?
09/25/2017 04:40:11 PM · #28
is not one always learning? or is you dead?
09/25/2017 04:44:38 PM · #29
Originally posted by Paul:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Paul:

But do you like what ends up on the front page....?

I don't think the mission statement of the site is to provide a superior photo gallery for the public -- it is to help people become "better" photographers by challenging them to do something out of their normal process.

Now, people seem to be complaining that it's too much work to get a beautiful image under the Minimal rule set, not that it's impossible -- but isn't that rather the point of it being a "challenge?" Learning how to exert better control over your equipment, composition and lighting is a bad thing?


Hmm... is that mission relevant for a community of seasoned DPC'ers?

Exactly -- people are complaining about low numbers here, but unless we are willing to clone ourselves membership will only increase by adding some new people, for whom a technically-oriented Minimal challenge could be a valuable learning experience.
09/25/2017 04:53:04 PM · #30
Originally posted by tnun:

is not one always learning? or is you dead?


Well, I think I'm likely to learn more from a full digital workflow than one that is curtailed by the constraints of minimal. Once you work out how to use the camera, what manipulation of the variables achieve....
09/25/2017 04:55:41 PM · #31
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Paul:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Paul:

But do you like what ends up on the front page....?

I don't think the mission statement of the site is to provide a superior photo gallery for the public -- it is to help people become "better" photographers by challenging them to do something out of their normal process.

Now, people seem to be complaining that it's too much work to get a beautiful image under the Minimal rule set, not that it's impossible -- but isn't that rather the point of it being a "challenge?" Learning how to exert better control over your equipment, composition and lighting is a bad thing?


Hmm... is that mission relevant for a community of seasoned DPC'ers?

Exactly -- people are complaining about low numbers here, but unless we are willing to clone ourselves membership will only increase by adding some new people, for whom a technically-oriented Minimal challenge could be a valuable learning experience.


Or they could see sub-optimal images on the front page and decide they aspire to something a bit more polished/interesting.

[Disclaimer - I'm in the Minimal challenge; I'm taking an extreme position of my own view. But... I do believe its a more enjoyable place when one has great images to look at]

Message edited by author 2017-09-25 16:56:14.
09/25/2017 06:23:34 PM · #32
it's true that there are things about minimal that are irksome; but - not that it is a parallel thing - the digital workflow can be at least as irksome.

and then there is that thing about my liking photos that frequently miss the front page, and which inspire me far more than them what do.

I do like the phrase "sub optimal," like a piece of meat that is about to go off, like a car that fails its safety check, like my dog's singing, but I have a hard time applying it to art.

actually I am feeling a little sub optimal myself...

Message edited by author 2017-09-25 18:25:30.
09/25/2017 06:29:52 PM · #33
Shooting JPG is not the same as shooting film straight from camera. So many enhancements in the camera that its no longer a true representation of the image you saw. My camera can do amazing things to manipulate a JPG file so I'm effectively editing my photo in the camera. If I have time I can shoot the image altering the contrast, sharpness, saturation, I can even sway my colour selection with a colour dial. Shoot black and white, miniature, pop art etc etc as they are all directly from the camera and are JPG files. How is this a representation of shooting a correctly exposed film shot. It's just not!!

As with others I don't shoot JPG and I won't shoot JPG & Raw for a 'just in case moment' as I have no use for the JPG files. I have also had some great shots in RAW that I would enter but 'they aren't JPG and don't qualify.

I think a change of rules to allow RAW and some basic editing rules would be perfect. How about the basic editing rules include anything that can be done on a camera. Nobody could complain then.

I vote to change it.
09/25/2017 07:36:19 PM · #34
Originally posted by RamblinR:

Shooting JPG is not the same as shooting film straight from camera. So many enhancements in the camera that its no longer a true representation of the image you saw. My camera can do amazing things to manipulate a JPG file so I'm effectively editing my photo in the camera. If I have time I can shoot the image altering the contrast, sharpness, saturation, I can even sway my colour selection with a colour dial. Shoot black and white, miniature, pop art etc etc as they are all directly from the camera and are JPG files. How is this a representation of shooting a correctly exposed film shot. It's just not!!

I'd be willing to bet that virtually everything you listed is something the code-writers were inspired to add to the software as a way to emulate some technique of film photography.

The point is that for Minimal you have to pre-set all those values -- equivalent to choosing a film, lens, and lighting combination to achieve a certain effect.

Photoshop was created to process film images -- digital cameras (at least for ordinary folks) were only a gleam in some Kodak engineer's eye ...

Also, remember that in-camera processing which occurs after the initial JPEG is captured is still not allowed in Minimal.

Message edited by author 2017-09-25 19:37:36.
09/25/2017 07:45:01 PM · #35
I still think minimal is a good idea. I'm doing too much in post to create what I wanted to create in the first place. Minimal helps hone the skills.

But it still seems like if the changes are in a sidecar file, we should be able to submit a RAW file that's not edited as a valid original for minimal. If we don't change anything, save as jpeg, what's the issue?
09/25/2017 07:47:50 PM · #36
Originally posted by vawendy:

But it still seems like if the changes are in a sidecar file, we should be able to submit a RAW file that's not edited as a valid original for minimal. If we don't change anything, save as jpeg, what's the issue?

When you process the RAW into a JPEG you can change all kinds of setting from what they were at the moment you pressed the shutter -- there is no alternative. You can shoot RAW + JPEG so you can edit optimally later, but only the JPEG capture "fixes" the values in effect when you took the picture.
09/25/2017 07:49:04 PM · #37
I had to go re-shoot for this challenge because I forgot to shoot in JPG the first two times. Oops. What's much worse is forgetting to change it back to RAW when I'm done! But if I get to convert my RAW file I can be lazier about getting exposure and whatnot right before pressing the shutter. Somewhat less challenging to me.
09/25/2017 07:55:43 PM · #38
You can capture a RAW file and a JPEG file at the same time -- then you'll always have the RAW file for later use, and you won't have to remember to change back.
09/25/2017 07:59:30 PM · #39
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by vawendy:

But it still seems like if the changes are in a sidecar file, we should be able to submit a RAW file that's not edited as a valid original for minimal. If we don't change anything, save as jpeg, what's the issue?

When you process the RAW into a JPEG you can change all kinds of setting from what they were at the moment you pressed the shutter -- there is no alternative. You can shoot RAW + JPEG so you can edit optimally later, but only the JPEG capture "fixes" the values in effect when you took the picture.


But wouldn't you see that when you get the RAW file for validation, and thus it wouldn't be validated?
09/25/2017 08:19:56 PM · #40
You could have your camera's white-balance set to Tungsten when you press the shutter, and then set it to Daylight when you process the RAW file so you can submit your no-longer blue squirrel as an entry. AFAIK there is no way to know for sure from the RAW file what the camera setting was when you pressed the shutter.
09/25/2017 08:22:04 PM · #41
Originally posted by GeneralE:

You could have your camera's white-balance set to Tungsten when you press the shutter, and then set it to Daylight when you process the RAW file so you can submit your no-longer blue squirrel as an entry. AFAIK there is no way to know for sure from the RAW file what the camera setting was when you pressed the shutter.


Hmmm... Ok, I guess. I assumed that going back and selecting "as shot" meant it kept the info. Ah well!
09/25/2017 08:26:03 PM · #42
Well, it may, or may not, or may for some cameras and not others. It is far simpler to ask everyone to just take and submit a JPEG and have everybody doing the same thing ...
09/25/2017 09:46:57 PM · #43
Originally posted by GeneralE:

You can capture a RAW file and a JPEG file at the same time -- then you'll always have the RAW file for later use, and you won't have to remember to change back.


I know, but it takes up so much space and it's a PITA to have to delete JPGs (almost) every time I download pictures.
09/25/2017 10:04:53 PM · #44
I don't like minimal, but I don't think shooting in RAW and then not doing any processing is going to do anyone any favors.

JPEG processing affects sharpness, contrast, colors, brightness, and dynamic range. And distortion correction for most mirrorless cameras! So by not allowing any editing in those categories, you are actually REALLY going to get the worst of all worlds.

Example: when I shoot with my Fuji, I pick a film profile, including Provia, Velvia, Camera Neutral, etc. When I process on the computer in LR, I see the additional processing effects of Adobe's Standard profile, which is often suboptimal.

And the software I use--whether LR, On1 RAW, may affect those choices. When I import to LR, distortion control is automatic--I don't need to apply a lens profile. Not true in On1...it's an editing option.

So personally, I think allowing RAW but restricting processing would actually produce inferior results to JPEG, and also would make it difficult to judge...what software did the RAW to JPEG conversion? What were the defaults? As SC, we'd have to convert using whatever processor you used to see that you didn't add the contrast, brightness, etc., on your own.

On the other hand, if you want to make it simply "Minimal = no crop, and no spot editing (other than dust)"--in some ways more like the old Basic editing set--that might be an improvement.

Then again, cropping and spot editing is something photographers have done for ages.

In short, in my opinion, having a minimal, or even basic editing challenge, at all doesn't help us in that regard.

ETA: Though I'll add from a SC perspective that it's easier (less work) to validate the images in minimal than any other challenge type.

Message edited by author 2017-09-25 22:06:14.
09/25/2017 10:15:58 PM · #45
Whilst I do agree that photos need editing I do like minimal and I do hope we have them now an then.

It forces you to focus more on the composition, to pay more attention to what you are shooting. In these digital times I often forget about basics and shoot saying: oh, i'll see what I can squeeze out of it.

I am not necessarly favouring the output but I definitely like the exercise. Winning ribbons, I don't often care.

Also I do like the fact that I do not have to waste time for PP... If I got it I sharpen it and that's it.

Cheers

PS I always shoot R+J and delete the ones I don't need. For minimal I also like fiddle with the settings of the camera, regardless which one I use.

Message edited by author 2017-09-25 22:18:15.
09/25/2017 10:17:05 PM · #46
I like minimal, but I wish there wasn't a special flag on its listing these days. I understand the wish to draw attention to the fact that it's minimal editing, but the flag was previously used to signify that it was minimal + cropping (or other special, extenuating rules - and not just a regular editing ruleset). Seems like it should be some other icon and not special flag. A googly-eyed LOOK maybe.
09/25/2017 10:18:59 PM · #47
Originally posted by skewsme:

I like minimal, but I wish there wasn't a special flag on its listing these days. I understand the wish to draw attention to the fact that it's minimal editing, but the flag was previously used to signify that it was minimal + cropping (or other special, extenuating rules - and not just a regular editing ruleset). Seems like it should be some other icon and not special flag. A googly-eyed LOOK maybe.


+1
09/26/2017 02:08:42 PM · #48
Originally posted by glad2badad:

I think this is a PERFECT challenge for the Minimal rule set! :-) Seriously.

Holy Sh*t!

Barry and I *agree* on something???

And I truly do.....it's a Minimal challenge that really appealed to me.

As far as general thoughts on Minimal, I think that we should keep it, just the way it is, forever.

Just the fact that it gripes so many people on so many levels means that it truly is a challenge.

So far every argument that I've read supposedly against it is a great reason to continue.

Most of the complaints seem to boil down to laziness or inattention. I don't mean that in a bad way but it seems like the extra work the whole way through the process annoys some. I don't want to take anything from SC's having extra work, that sucks, but I'm hoping they will continue to be good sports about it. Thank you guys for this...... I wasn't aware of, or didn't think about it from the point of view of validation.

I have huge, fast cards in my camera and I shoot RAW and jpeg all the time.

Sometimes I'm somewhere that has only the barest of editing opportunities and/or I need something NOW so I like to be able to just dump a jpeg into whatever computer and produce an image wherever I am.

Minimal makes me work harder, it makes me pay closer attention, it makes me WANT to do better. That in and of itself is justification for my wanting to hang onto it.

There's always room for an additional ruleset with different possibilities, but I truly believe DPC should always have minimal.
09/26/2017 06:46:41 PM · #49
Originally posted by skewsme:

I like minimal, but I wish there wasn't a special flag on its listing these days. I understand the wish to draw attention to the fact that it's minimal editing, but the flag was previously used to signify that it was minimal + cropping (or other special, extenuating rules - and not just a regular editing ruleset). Seems like it should be some other icon and not special flag. A googly-eyed LOOK maybe.


Yup. +1
09/26/2017 06:47:41 PM · #50
And seriously!? I had 10 minutes. I shot really fast. Did I change to jpeg?

YES!!

But after 9 minutes of my 10 minute shoot.

Gack again. :(
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