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02/01/2006 03:12:00 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Riiiiiiiight. That might explain the difference between a higher and lower score, for any human with functioning eyeballs to give shots like these that totally nail the challenge a 1? *sniff* I smell trolls! |
So you're saying that there's no way reasonable (e.g., humans with functional eyeballs) can disagree on the excellence of a given shot? C'mon Shannon, aka Mr Voice of Reason in many a DPC dispute. ;-) |
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02/01/2006 03:13:19 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
The reason a "good" picture gets a 1 is meaningless for helping improve your photography. It is an extreamist view, nothing more. The actual reason will be something as trivial as, "That is the 5th broad I saw walking across a field and I'm giving this one a 1 because I'm sick of seeing pictures like that!" Is that meaningful? No! In some of the images sited the controversy of it alone is sufficient to explain the few low scores. (And why is it that only the low scores are questioned and NEVER the high?)
But why the majority vote as they did on an image is useful information. That is what is meaningful. That will help you understand what connects and does not connect with a diverse population. Most reasons will relate to what photography is all about... photo quality, content and presentation. That knowledge can actually help you improve your photography. |
Well said. |
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02/01/2006 03:14:54 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by rebs138:
A 1 to me does not mean worst photo ever. It means worst photo(s) in challenge. |
You are free to vote as you like, but shouldn't each image be judged on it's own value? ... |
I agree Shannon. Each image should stand on it's own for evaluation purposes.
Even if I disagreed, I can't imagine trying to "sort" hundreds of images and then adjusting the scores based on how each image compared to all others. How can you possibly do that? I guess your memory would have to be solid so you could compare photo A to photo B in your sorted group by looking at thumbnails?
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02/01/2006 03:16:30 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by rebs138:
Originally posted by scalvert:
merit a 1- equivalent to the worst photo ever. |
See, I dont agree with this at all. A 1 to me does not mean worst photo ever. It means worst photo(s) in challenge. |
rebs,
I think this comment and your other post go a long way toward explaining some of the thinking behind the lower scores. Thank you for bravely posting!
You (and others--not trying to single you out) are certainly free to score the challenges as you see fit. In the larger scheme it doesn't matter very much if there are a few stray 1's on the best photos.
However, I don't agree with your method. To me, it is the same as giving the worst employee $1.00 for their week's wages simply because everyone else worked harder or was more successful. It's like giving an F to a student for getting more answers wrong on a multiple choice test even if they got 95 out of 100 correct. It's like telling a pretty girl she's ugly because all her friends are center-fold worthy... If you get my point, it seems like a very harsh system for doling out merit.
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02/01/2006 03:18:09 PM · #30 |
| So does that mean we can only give one 1 and one 10, ever? Because there can't be more than one WORST or BEST ever, right? |
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02/01/2006 03:19:28 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by rebs138:
A 1 to me does not mean worst photo ever. It means worst photo(s) in challenge. |
... I'd rather look back on a photo and know that I gave it a 1 or a 10 not because of where it fell within the competition, but because that's what it was actually worth. |
Worth? Worth is a relative term -- that is, nothing can be said to have worth until it is compared next to something else. One can then be said to have more worth than the other.
Everyone evaluates each photo against something, be it other photos in the same challenge or something outside the challenge. To me it makes more sense to give more weight to a comparison of like things -- apples to apples, oranges to oranges, challenge entry to challenge entry.
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
... I try to judge the shots on their merits. If the worst shot in the group is a six, give it a six. ... |
When compared against what?
David
Message edited by author 2006-02-01 15:19:59.
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02/01/2006 03:22:23 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Even if I disagreed, I can't imagine trying to "sort" hundreds of images and then adjusting the scores based on how each image compared to all others. How can you possibly do that? I guess your memory would have to be solid so you could compare photo A to photo B in your sorted group by looking at thumbnails? |
Ah, but wouldn't this be a great voting method - even though it's probably impossible to code in the real world: initially rank the photos numerically, and then have a way of viewing the shots in your browser that allows you to "pick up and move" a photo to a different place in the rankings. E.g., when you're adjusting your final vote, you are able to actually rank the photos from high to low, and make adjustments "I like this one better than than one so I'll move it above that photo."
Like I said, probably impossible to code, and almost certainly impossible to make practical in a challenge of several hundreds of shots, but it takes away the numerical scoring, and allows each voter to say what goes first, who's ahead of whom, etc. |
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02/01/2006 03:23:45 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by rebs138:
A 1 to me does not mean worst photo ever. It means worst photo(s) in challenge. |
This is the logic that gave the best of year shots the same average score as wildlife. The best shots of the year are no better than aa particular subject over one weeks time? That is BS. Each shot should be judged alone, not as part of an bolus of pixels.
I try to judge the shots on their merits. If the worst shot in the group is a six, give it a six. If none answer the challenge topic and lack in technical quality or estetics then none deserve above three. |
I can't vote that way. In a class I could get over a 90% on every assignment and end up with a final grade of a B or even a C in some cases. Does this mean my work had no merit? No... it means some of my classmates work was better than mine and grades were given accordingly. Conversly, last semester I had a 65% average in a certain class and recieved an A as my final grade. The test scores were terrible, but someone had to get an A. If a professor failed every student in the class he wouldnt have a job for very long.
These challenges are a competition. To give 85% of the photos a vote of 8 just doesnt make any sense to me. If they are all that good, then you need to you refine your voting scale such that the differences between an 8 and a 9 are more subtle.
But thats just how I see competition... |
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02/01/2006 03:28:42 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by David.C:
Worth? Worth is a relative term -- that is, nothing can be said to have worth until it is compared next to something else. One can then be said to have more worth than the other.
Everyone evaluates each photo against something, be it other photos in the same challenge or something outside the challenge. |
And here's where we can agree. If you've read I. Kant you'll know that he believed in an "ideal form" that exists beyond our immediate knowledge—the perfect ideal. How do you know if someone is moral? You judge them against an ideal concept of moral.
Likewise, how do you know if an image is good? You judge it against an ideal concept of good imagery. To arrive at that ideal concept you examine what you know to be good—in photography we speak of composition, effective use of depth-of-field, color balance, emotional impact, etc. These concepts can guide our judgment--it doesn't need to be "grading on the curve" or simplistic ranking. (In fact, I don't believe the 1 - 10 scale is discrete enough for that sort of scoring.) |
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02/01/2006 03:28:57 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by mk:
So does that mean we can only give one 1 and one 10, ever? Because there can't be more than one WORST or BEST ever, right? |
Seems that way. I thought you just vote on the photos that actually get submitted??? No wonder my results are usually off. Others I guess are going by existing DPC standards of what was determined to be great and what wasn't and based on some chart people have in their heads vote accordingly. I'm now lost. |
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02/01/2006 03:28:59 PM · #36 |
| oh, and to me the actual final average means nothing. I have no problem with the "Best of 2005" and "wildlife" averages being the same. The picture with the highest average won... thats all that matters. |
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02/01/2006 03:33:06 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by strangeghost:
... then have a way of viewing the shots in your browser that allows you to "pick up and move" a photo to a different place in the rankings. ... "I like this one better than than one so I'll move it above that photo." ... |
To do this requires making a judgement based on the thumbnail in front of you to move...
...or, do you open photo A then open photo B, decide photo B goes in front of photo A? Now, let's look at photo C - wait, what about photo G? Even with a good internet connection speed this could really take a long time to do and do so fairly.
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02/01/2006 03:39:14 PM · #38 |
You all can surely acknowledge that people's tastes differ. What to you is an awesome photo may to some be mediocre, or positively ghastley.
I 100% absolutely adamantly DISAGREE!!!!!!
I may hate mushrooms, but I can still appreciate when a dish is made with mushrooms, presented nicely, and cooked well. I may hate the subject matter. But it is clear it was a good dish to those who do like that sort of subject matter.
I am sorry, IMHO, there is no justification for a "1" in this entry's case. All you apologeticists are just serving a load of crap IMHO. Just stop...I am so sick of this "different tastes" answer. Cause frankly, IT'S CRAP!!!!
Sure, someone might not like aspects, might take off a few points, it might not be their cup of tea. But it is clear that it is NOT a "1" photograph. It may not be a "10" either. But it's not trash. It was reasonably executed. Not perfectly, but we're not talking a 10.
A well composed, decently focused and technically fair photo never deserves a "1". Not on subject method and cup of tea. And frankly, anyone who votes soley on "I only like a certain style and all others I give 1's too..should just leave."
That's like voting everyone a 1 who enters a color photograph regardless of quality because you only like B&W photos. Or let me take it a step further, voting everyone a "1" except for my own entry cause I only like my photographs.
In truth, I think a lot of these frivolous 1's are negative campaigning and trolling.
I see this often it's annoying, but it's rather difficult to prevent (unless said user votes every photo with a 1). But trust me, there are people out there who are going to vote a 1 or 2 for most of the nice photos in order to hurt them. Some people are just evil like that. Just as some people submit photos taken outside of the time range.
I expect that in any sort of site as DPC. But I do get tired of constant apologies made for them. Yes, photos are are iffy, mediocre or merely average might get a 1 or a 2 here and there. But when you get a photo that has a "1" and then the next lowest number is like a 4. You know that it's just crap voting. Let's not apologize for it. Let's merely point out that the SC and D&L do their best to eliminate such. And the few that do get through the nets have little overall effect.
- Saj |
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02/01/2006 03:39:56 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by KaDi:
... Likewise, how do you know if an image is good? You judge it against an ideal concept of good imagery. To arrive at that ideal concept you examine what you know to be good—in photography we speak of composition, effective use of depth-of-field, color balance, emotional impact, etc. These concepts can guide our judgment--it doesn't need to be "grading on the curve" or simplistic ranking. (In fact, I don't believe the 1 - 10 scale is discrete enough for that sort of scoring.) |
Well said KaDi.
If a friend comes to you and says "What do you think of this photo? Scale of 1 to 10. What would you give it?" Would most of us not be able to fairly "grade" that photo based on what we know about photography? I think we would and could give sound reasons for the grade given. Granted in a challenge there is a "theme" that needs to be met as well that can influence a "grade" or score.
Photo's should be judged primarily on the image itself and how well it met the theme of the challenge.
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02/01/2006 03:41:10 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by KaDi:
Originally posted by David.C:
Worth? Worth is a relative term -- that is, nothing can be said to have worth until it is compared next to something else. One can then be said to have more worth than the other.
Everyone evaluates each photo against something, be it other photos in the same challenge or something outside the challenge. |
And here's where we can agree. If you've read I. Kant you'll know that he believed in an "ideal form" that exists beyond our immediate knowledge—the perfect ideal. How do you know if someone is moral? You judge them against an ideal concept of moral.
Likewise, how do you know if an image is good? You judge it against an ideal concept of good imagery. To arrive at that ideal concept you examine what you know to be good—in photography we speak of composition, effective use of depth-of-field, color balance, emotional impact, etc. These concepts can guide our judgment--it doesn't need to be "grading on the curve" or simplistic ranking. (In fact, I don't believe the 1 - 10 scale is discrete enough for that sort of scoring.) |
Who said anything about grading on a curve? Just because the greatest weight of the vote is based on how the photos stack up against each other does not mean that I would ever insist on having my votes cast fall into a perfect bell curve.
Voting against an imaginary ideal is comparing each entry against something that does not and can never exist. Not only does it not exist, any given person is incapable of 'seeing' it well enough to compare it against something they can see.
If I compared every image against the most ideal image I can imagine, I would be voting every image in negative numbers. I have a good imagination, and nothing I've seen comes anywhere close to the perfection of an ideal!
Voting based on what is in the challenge is like taking a picture of a sunny day -- the camera can not capture the entire dynamic range form perfect black to perfect white, so I pick a range of tones relative to the scene and snap the shutter open. The final image is still made up of tones from black to white, but they are what was relevant to what was at hand. The scores in the challenges run from 1 to 10 and are relative to what is at hand -- not what can be imagined.
David
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02/01/2006 03:43:13 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by strangeghost:
So you're saying that there's no way reasonable (e.g., humans with functional eyeballs) can disagree on the excellence of a given shot? |
Not at all. A photo that's judged to be excellent by a large group with diverse opinions might not be all that great to me, but it's not going to be bad. The only way to hit an upper 7 or 8 score is with an entry that nails the challenge with technical excellence, and I can't imagine anyone justifying a 1 with that type of photo (the same applies to anyone who would give a 10 to a technically awful, clearly off-topic entry).
...and mk, my comment was equivalent to the worst photo ever, not actually THE worst photo ever. There are images on this site that would compare with the finest I've ever seen, and others that look like the camera was dropped and fired by accident. There are lots of bad photos, lots of great photos, and many more in between, but IMO a good photo doesn't magically turn into a bad one just because others are better (and vice versa).
I'm sure some (maybe all) supposed "troll" votes are accidental. Maybe somebody used 1 as a sort vote and never returned to change it. Maybe somebody tried to click the "back" arrow and missed. Whatever the reason, votes that are completely detached from the bell curve are still annoying. |
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02/01/2006 03:45:31 PM · #42 |
Now, my personal view of a "1" photo is a photo that is blurry, poorly composed, poorly lit, and difficult to see what the photo is supposed to convey.
A blurry photo or a photo with poor contrast but not both I give a 2.
For example, I've seen some photos that the composition is good but it was out of focus ruining the photo. They get a 2 from me.
That's just me personally, I know there are some who are stronger critics and will give a 1 to a lot more. And a photo that is focused but very snap-shottish and blah will get a 2 maybe even a 1. (Where as it is more of a 3 for me.)
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02/01/2006 03:50:34 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
Now, my personal view of a "1" photo is a photo that is blurry, poorly composed, poorly lit, and difficult to see what the photo is supposed to convey.
A blurry photo or a photo with poor contrast but not both I give a 2.
For example, I've seen some photos that the composition is good but it was out of focus ruining the photo. They get a 2 from me.
That's just me personally, I know there are some who are stronger critics and will give a 1 to a lot more. And a photo that is focused but very snap-shottish and blah will get a 2 maybe even a 1. (Where as it is more of a 3 for me.) |
Why not a "1". My first challenge entry definately deserved a "1". Can't explain how it got to 3. Got plenty of comments and helpful hints to get to an above 5 in my 4th entry. Give a one if you want to, but also give a hint and comment. I punish my kids if they are wrong, but I make sure they know what the punishment is for and how to improve.
My first entry;
My 4th entry;
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02/01/2006 03:51:32 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by David.C:
Voting against an imaginary ideal is comparing each entry against something that does not and can never exist. |
C'mon David... if somebody walked up to you with a single photo, surely you could tell them it was a good or bad picture without requesting a portfolio of comparison images to judge it against? Each of us has an idea of what a good, bad or average photo looks like, and we don't carry around a field guide for reference.
Voting by comparison with the competition is fundamentally flawed... if a hundred people entered the challenge with the same image taken with the same camera and settings under the same conditions, you might as well throw up your hands because you could never distinguish the good from the bad. |
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02/01/2006 03:52:54 PM · #45 |
| In the end, it would not be fair to punish voters who "unfairly" give out 1's, unless the same treatment was given to those who "unfairly" give out 10's. There will never be an angry call for that though. On most of my submission I have gotten at least one 1 and one 10. Both were probably not really deserved, but in the end they cancell each other out. I get upset at 1's too, but when I really think about it, I realize it is just not worth thinking about. |
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02/01/2006 03:53:38 PM · #46 |
I very well may hold the record for the most 1's given to an in focus on-subject photo. Count them 60!
Now, someone tell me. Why 1's?
I really don't want an answer to that... REALLY! :-)
Message edited by author 2006-02-01 15:54:09.
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02/01/2006 03:54:41 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
I 100% absolutely adamantly DISAGREE!!!!!!
I am sorry, IMHO, there is no justification for a "1" in this entry's case. All you apologeticists are just serving a load of crap IMHO. Just stop...I am so sick of this "different tastes" answer. Cause frankly, IT'S CRAP!!!!
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But Saj, tell us how you REALLY feel!
There's no justification in your mind, and Shannon seems to be saying something similar, though in different terms. However, I stand by my contention that what's really happening is all explainable by the distribution of opinions that is expected in any population. As difficult as it is to believe, somebody really hated Forrest Gump, while others deemed it deserving of "Best Picture" for an award show. There aren't many people who would vote a universally acclaimed photo a 1, but the Behavior of Groups theory predicts that there will be a few. And so it is, in challenge after challenge. So we invent trolls as a straw man because we just can't believe that anybody could really disagree with the majority to such an extreme degree. Face it folks, for any moderate or "majority" opinion, there will always be extremists. Thankfully not many, and in reality, not enough to matter in the end, but they will always be there. |
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02/01/2006 03:55:34 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by David.C:
Voting against an imaginary ideal is comparing each entry against something that does not and can never exist. |
C'mon David... if somebody walked up to you with a single photo, surely you could tell them it was a good or bad picture without requesting a portfolio of comparison images to judge it against? Each of us has an idea of what a good, bad or average photo looks like, and we don't carry around a field guide for reference.
Voting by comparison with the competition is fundamentally flawed... if a hundred people entered the challenge with the same image taken with the same camera and settings under the same conditions, you might as well throw up your hands because you could never distinguish the good from the bad. |
I disagree - All fine and well to view one photo and judge it, I feel in a challenge you have an added criteria (above the norm Dof,composition,xposure etc) and that is how well the photo meets the challenge rules. I do this by comparing it to other photos in the challenge.
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02/01/2006 04:01:39 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by strangeghost:
... Face it folks, for any moderate or "majority" opinion, there will always be extremists. ... |
Agreed, there will always be extremists, like it or not. However, I think part of where this conversation is heading is not so much extremism as it is the concept of "having" to have a 1 and a 10 in your distribution of votes given. That just doesn't seem right. Yes, if you see an image you think is really bad (for whatever reason), give it a 1 - but don't do it just because you "must" have a 1, 2, etc... to distribute for the challenge.
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02/01/2006 04:06:58 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by marcellieb:
...I feel in a challenge you have an added criteria (above the norm Dof,composition,xposure etc) ...
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Why is that added? That should be a given for ANY photo to be judged by.
Originally posted by marcellieb:
... I do this by comparing it to other photos in the challenge. |
Why? Let's say the challenge is "Animals". You take an "OK" shot of a horse, but someone else in this challenge has a "Great" shot of a horse. Based on comparison, your image should get a 1, 2, 3??? Your image by itself is decent. Maybe not an 8, 9, 10 - but at least a 5 or 6.
Sorry, not buying into this comparison voting one bit. JMO. ;^)
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