| Author | Thread |
|
|
04/17/2006 12:34:41 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
I think that being able to give comments requires having thick skin, just as it does in receiving comments. As you may not always like what others have to say about your photo, you have to be prepared for the given comment that is not rec'd so graciously as well. |
Meh, the difference is that the commenter is trying to HELP the member by pointing out what was wrong/what could be done differently/etc. There's no need for someone to whine about it, and no one makes comments expecting to be blasted for it. Honestly, who would continue to make comments if they are not appreciated? It's much easier just to rate and say nothing if that is the case, in which case the site loses a major asset just because of a few people with sand in certain places. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 12:38:14 PM · #52 |
Yeah, what I often do now instead is still assess the image I'm viewing in the same way - still question what I like, what I don't like, why I feel that way, consider all the stuff I used to include in the more detailed style of comments I used to leave - but now I seldom bother leaving it as a comment.
So I still learn from it as much as I used to but the photographer doesn't benefit from my thoughts anymore. I don't mean benefit from it because it's the truth but benefit from another additional viewpoint. This is especially true of images I find weaker - I am more likely to leave comments on images I like than those I don't now. One too many PMs or forum posts ranting about an innocuous comment for my liking.
Selfish? Maybe. But I don't see WHY I should develop a thick skin in order to do someone else a favour...
Message edited by author 2006-04-17 12:42:05.
|
|
|
|
04/17/2006 12:39:23 PM · #53 |
2 cents worth of a newbie and registered user...
My first challenge I spent many hours voting and commenting, then afterwards comparing my votes and comments to the rest to see how accurate I was. On almost every one I was within one vote each side of the \"popular\" vote and most of my comments were echoed in others. I try to word criticisms nicely, often using \"IMO\" and wording possible changes as suggestions. I don\'t TELL them they\'re wrong.
Still, I get private messages telling me that *I* am wrong, that I don\'t have the photographer\'s vision/talent/skills to properly appreciate the photo. I don\'t mind these messages too much AFTER a challenge, but they really bother me when they come during voting. I believe it totally defeats the purpose of having an entrant\'s name hidden during voting, but I will NOT change my vote.
I\'ve been tempted to hide my name in comments, but have seen several called out for that, accused of hiding behind anonymity to say whatever they want while the entrant has no recourse but to take it.
So yes, to some extent my commenting is influenced by intimidation.
Another reason is that after the first couple challenges I realised that, as a rank amateur, the things I was noticing WERE things most others did and my comments were echoed a dozen times, so why tell them again something they\'ve already heard?
As for lack of comments on my mid-range pics, that tells me that the shot is probably not bad technically, but just ...\"nice\"...that it didn\'t move people, so I learn from what isn\'t said, as much as what is.
Believe me, I\'d LOVE more comments, especially on technical aspects, but I can understand why there aren\'t more. It takes a LONG time to properly comment on 300 photos, and a quick comment is usually recieved badly. People tend to treat their shots like their babies, and get rather defensive if they feel any threat... |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 12:42:29 PM · #54 |
I find that between work, planning a wedding and what not I am simply unable to vote anymore. The real issue is that I find that I'll get started but not get to the 20% and then my votes don't count and I feel like I wasted my time.
I think it'd help if D&L changed the rules so that ALL votes with comments count. I think this would increase both commenting and voting. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 12:43:59 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by skiprow:
i've been saying since i joined the site that the best way to learn here is to GIVE comments. take the time to analyze and disect others images, and you'll learn how to take better images. wait for everyone else to spoonfeed you and you'll starve.
along those lines, who gives a crap if someone finds a comment useful or not. if you make a comment in order to teach yourself something, it's simply gravy if it's useful to someone else... |
Really good point. I've found that one of the best ways to learn how to take better pictures is to analyze how others do it, and there's no better way of doing that than by leaving detailed comments. The act of writing them slows you down enough to really look at the picture you're commenting on. (The fact that people love long detailed analyses is a bonus too -- I've had many PMs from those that truly appreciate any such commentary, positive and critical.) I think (maybe naively) that a good way to get comments is to give them.
I agree completely with nshapiro's suggestion:
Originally posted by nshapiro:
]I'd like to see a flag in the profile -- "detailed critical comments welcome". If they were flagged and this somehow showed during voting, I think more people would be willing to post their honest, opinions, even if critical. |
|
|
|
|
04/17/2006 12:44:57 PM · #56 |
Would it be possible to post comment options in the voting box somewhere. It could go something like this...
Lighting... Excellent Good Fair Poor
Aperature... Excellent Good Fair Poor
Focus... Excellent Good Fair Poor
You would click on the boxes desired. They could be more in depth this is just an example of my idea. Something to this effect could spark some feed back from the lazy people who just wontleave a comment and we could still leave the comment box for those of us who do still care to leave indepth comments.
Message edited by author 2006-04-17 12:45:22. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 12:54:32 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by MrXpress:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
I think that being able to give comments requires having thick skin, just as it does in receiving comments. As you may not always like what others have to say about your photo, you have to be prepared for the given comment that is not rec'd so graciously as well. |
Meh, the difference is that the commenter is trying to HELP the member by pointing out what was wrong/what could be done differently/etc. There's no need for someone to whine about it, and no one makes comments expecting to be blasted for it. Honestly, who would continue to make comments if they are not appreciated? It's much easier just to rate and say nothing if that is the case, in which case the site loses a major asset just because of a few people with sand in certain places. |
You make a good point, but listen to what you are saying "just because of a few people with sand in certain places".
I agree that commenters, for the most part, comment with the intention of helping someone. Why turn off the "help" by commenting less, for a handful of people that don't appreciate/want it? That's why I said it takes thick skin on the commenting end as well as receiving.
You are, in essence, giving up on commenting because of a few bad apples. The site will never maintain/improve when good people give up. For every one bad apple there are numerous others that appreciate comments and feedback. Stay in it for them.
I still think a required question at challenge submission time would eliminate some of this, but not all of it, by only allowing comments on challenge entries that have said yes to accepting/wanting them.
edited to add formatting emphasis (italic and underline)
Message edited by author 2006-04-17 12:55:45. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 12:57:41 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by Apollo2077:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Apollo2077:
... people don't like it if I challenge their comments cos they think they are always right. ... |
That's an interesting observation. If you challenge comments are you not implying that you are the one that's always right? The word challenge, as applied in this context, sounds aggressive. When aggression is used many times the other party will become defensive. It all sounds a bit stressful. ;^) |
Actually the comments I challenged are some comments I've been receiving on the Candid challenge. They just wrote "Not Candid", or "DNMC", and left it at that. I just challenged the comments by asking why they thought my photo did not meet the challenge, and I also gave my perspective on why I entered my photo in the challenge. I never said I'm always right, but I suppose I can see how you came to that conclusion!!
I love getting comments both good & bad, but only as long as I can learn something from them.
Recieving negative unconstructive feedback tends to make you feel cornered - and the only way you can go to escape is back towards the person pushing you into the corner.... |
If you're challenging comments that you receive while the challenge is still in the voting period, that may have something to do with some of the resistance you're feeling. Not everyone enjoys being PMed with a justification of why a photographer feels that their photo fits the challenge as it can appear to be an attempt to sway votes. Just something to think about. |
I feel like you're putting words in my mouth now! All I ask for is for them to justify their comment - nothing more, nothing less... |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 12:58:25 PM · #59 |
| That's true. I didn't specifically say I was going to stop commenting, but I was just pointing out that seeing people balk at comments definitely doesn't urge you to keep making them. I guess I should just keep in mind that the majority of my comments (and comments in general) are helpful and leave it at that. Maybe make an 'ignore user' feature for the bad apples? :) |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 12:59:24 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by MrXpress:
... Maybe make an 'ignore user' feature for the bad apples? :) |
;^) |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 12:59:37 PM · #61 |
I agree with a lot that has been said here including why some people are not leaving commments any more. If you don't know which photographer appreciates comments then why waste your time? One of the solutions to this someone mentioned was indictating on the voting page that you do appreciate comments. Maybe that's too easy for someone to check off and thus everyone with an entry will do it. Or perhaps some that really don't want the feedback during voting won't check. If we have that it still won't fix things but perhaps it might help even just a little.
Here's something I brought up as a solution before (and others may have as well):
What about adding a few checkboxes on the voting page that allows the voter to leave comments quick and easily AND stay anonymous at the same time? For example, have some checkboxes that display across the voting page under the title "Things that need improvement". That way the voter can click on "Rule of Thirds", "Lighting", or whatever to provide SOME feedback to the photographer. At the end the photographer gets statistics/graph showing them where their photo went wrong and what areas they need to work on to improve. Now this may not be as personal as someone leaving a comment which would still be available but at least you would be getting a "bare minimum" level of actual constructive comments as opposed to nothing.
Having this "automated" way of providing bulk constructive comments I think can only provide an incentive to participate and remain active. I really see no downsides from a member standpoint. Thoughts?
Edited for clarity.
Message edited by author 2006-04-17 13:02:39.
|
|
|
|
04/17/2006 01:03:25 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
I appreciate knowing that someone likes my work. But they shouldn't expect a pat on the head for it. |
The box says "this comment was helpful." That is not a pat on the head. If you know all your photos are great and it's not helpful to hear it, then I guess you shouldn't mark them as helpful. Personally I find it very helpful to know what photos other people think are great.
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
If you're getting DNMC comments, you probably already knew it was a longshot. Seriously, how could you not? And if you didn't then DNMC isn't helpful because it doesn't tell you why. Acronyms aren't helpful in fact they're downright lazy. How does it accomplish anything but leaving you bewildered as to why? |
Are you speaking for everyone? Not everyone knows their image didn't meet the challenge. About once a month someone posts a thread here about how all the voters are closed minded and how their photo of a flower clearly met the the "trains" challenge because they heard a train while taking the photo. My last challenge photo scored over a 6 but I got about 30 comments saying it didn't meet the challenge. I knew it was a stretch, but it's helpful to know so many people thought it wasn't even a stretch.
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
As for "Very creative", again I appreciate the comment, but it's not telling me how to improve. It's really just the same as "good job". |
So... you are not sure if your new idea of carving faces into fruit and stuffing them down the drain was creative or just silly. You enter the challenge anyway so you can find out. Wouldn't comments that say "Very creative" or "Just plain silly" be helpful to you?
I consider someone telling me what I'm doing right to be just as helpful as people telling me what I did wrong. Helpful doesn't have to always be about what you did wrong or could have done better. Maybe I'm trying a new editing technique or a different composition style. If people like it, I want to know. That's very helpful to me. I guess we just have different ideas of helpful.
|
|
|
|
04/17/2006 01:06:46 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by Apollo2077:
I feel like you're putting words in my mouth now! All I ask for is for them to justify their comment - nothing more, nothing less... |
Why does anyone have to "justify" their opinion? I may disagree with it, but they are entitled to express it anyway. If it is one not widely-held, it won't harm me or my photo in any way ...
As soon as the voting closes, you can quote any comment and respond to it right there in the image comment thread, for all to see, and there can be a "discussion" on the various opinions and interpretations of your photo. There's no need to personally harass or berate commenters either in the public forums or via PM because of their opinion. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 01:09:20 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by Apollo2077:
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by Apollo2077:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Apollo2077:
... people don't like it if I challenge their comments cos they think they are always right. ... |
That's an interesting observation. If you challenge comments are you not implying that you are the one that's always right? The word challenge, as applied in this context, sounds aggressive. When aggression is used many times the other party will become defensive. It all sounds a bit stressful. ;^) |
Actually the comments I challenged are some comments I've been receiving on the Candid challenge. They just wrote "Not Candid", or "DNMC", and left it at that. I just challenged the comments by asking why they thought my photo did not meet the challenge, and I also gave my perspective on why I entered my photo in the challenge. I never said I'm always right, but I suppose I can see how you came to that conclusion!!
I love getting comments both good & bad, but only as long as I can learn something from them.
Recieving negative unconstructive feedback tends to make you feel cornered - and the only way you can go to escape is back towards the person pushing you into the corner.... |
If you're challenging comments that you receive while the challenge is still in the voting period, that may have something to do with some of the resistance you're feeling. Not everyone enjoys being PMed with a justification of why a photographer feels that their photo fits the challenge as it can appear to be an attempt to sway votes. Just something to think about. |
I feel like you're putting words in my mouth now! All I ask for is for them to justify their comment - nothing more, nothing less... |
I think "challenge" was a strong word to use. You can ask a commenter a question about their comment and ask them to clarify and that is perfectly okay. I've had people do that to me and I've been glad to elaborate on my opinion for them.
If you PM them saying they are an idiot, they don't know art from a hole in the ground and they have no clue what they are doing, that is another thing. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 01:09:41 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by yanko:
...Having this "automated" way of providing bulk constructive comments I think can only provide an incentive to participate and remain active. I really see no downsides from a member standpoint. Thoughts? |
Good idea, but is really an add-on to the existing process. The problem stems now from reactions to comments rec'd. If the comment box is still there this situation remains. It's really a question of whether to keep the "helpful" checkbox, and whether to allow users to turn on/off the ability to receive comments (or other formats to identify user preferences for type of comments wanting, etc...).
I think what you propose has merit and it has been brought up before. One issue is voting page real estate. Concerns about scrolling to see an image, larger than 640 pixel images, etc... are factors to consider in adding anything to the voting page currently. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 01:10:20 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by Beetle:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by langdon:
We can run another Invitiational Challenge for people who have given more comments than they have received. |
I love this idea. |
I think that's a bandaid solution which does nothing to fix the problems we have mentioned. |
I think it is a more tangible way of rewarding commentors than most of the other suggestions offered. Band-Aids work very well for cuts and abrasions when used properly. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 01:11:58 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by Apollo2077:
I feel like you're putting words in my mouth now! All I ask for is for them to justify their comment - nothing more, nothing less... |
I'm not putting words in your mouth. You wrote "I just challenged the comments by asking why they thought my photo did not meet the challenge, and I also gave my perspective on why I entered my photo in the challenge" and said that people didn't like it when you do this. I'm simply pointing out that, regardless of your intention, this may be received poorly and seen as an attempt to have your vote changed. People may respond better if you contact them after the challenge. That's all. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 01:13:41 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by langdon:
Originally posted by Beetle:
Langdon, I think the single most useful change would be to give people an option to tick in their preferences. Make us choose if we DO want comments, good and bad.
Then along with each photo, let us see if that person does or does NOT want comments - during the voting stage as well as afterwards. |
Do you think that anyone would actually opt out of receiving comments?
...
After I wrote that sentence I checked to see how many people in a given challenge weren't ticking the critique box, and was surprised to see that more than half weren't. I only checked Chrome, Candid, and Color Studio Portrait, but wouldn't suspect other challenges to be different.
I wonder though, if initially (and always for noobies) a checkbox like this, that would have to be checked to get comments, would cause some negative commotion? |
I'm glad Langdon has picked up on this concern and put it out there for conversation, feedback, and ideas. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 01:14:32 PM · #69 |
| If you really want more comments make them manditory in the voting process or your vote doesnt count... |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 01:15:33 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
If you're getting DNMC comments, you probably already knew it was a longshot. Seriously, how could you not? And if you didn't then DNMC isn't helpful because it doesn't tell you why. Acronyms aren't helpful in fact they're downright lazy. How does it accomplish anything but leaving you bewildered as to why? |
Not necessarily! My second challenge was "footwear". I was hammered for DNMC when it DID, but I failed to make it obvious that it did. I assumed that, because it was a footwear challenge, voters would be able to see/deduce/infer that they were monkey slippers, but I hadn't been here long enough to realise that many do basically ignore the topic to fit in what they want. I learned something from all the DNMC comments. Maybe not anything to make me take technically better photos, but something on looking at my shots through another's eyes, which is just as necessary for success. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 01:15:39 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
I think it is a more tangible way of rewarding commentors than most of the other suggestions offered. Band-Aids work very well for cuts and abrasions when used properly. |
It doesn't stop the complaining and attacking that happens too often for comments that are anymore negative than: "brilliant" |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 01:21:27 PM · #72 |
I'm all for the suggestion of letting people decide if they want to receive comments or not (as a profile checkbox).
This in itself would make me more feel more confident when commenting on shots.
These days I think twice before leaving 'truthful' comments in case I upset someone! |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 01:21:53 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by langdon:
....After I wrote that sentence I checked to see how many people in a given challenge weren't ticking the critique box, and was surprised to see that more than half weren't..... |
Not sure this does not have other baggage - I tick that on almost all my entries but as far as I know have never got one :-)
- I liked the idea of a challenge for those with x comments (probably as a percentage) but then you will get the quality of comments stuff.
- If you do something like the no comments please then it would be useful to drop the comment box if that was set (or only show the box when they said yes) - it should not compromise the annonimity (sp is wrong) of the photo.
- Maybe have the "comment helpful" be a scale 3 or 5 values is enough (people could use the lowest to acknowledge the comment but also say it's not really helpful without several check-boxes) and use that to add a rating to the persons profile indicating their level of comments (comment-ed-ness-scale sort of). Turning it into a competition of sorts might help the quality and quantity of comments - not sure just a thought. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 01:24:41 PM · #74 |
Hey everybody. I think we have an excellent opportunity to direct some change that has been asked for time and time again regarding comments on challenge entries, the choice of the "helpful" checkbox (is it worded correctly, do we need it, do we need more?).
My position is we should give the user the option at time of submitting their challenge photo to choose yes/no on receiving comments. Make this a question that is required (must be answered) to submit your entry.
As for the "helpful" checkbox on comments, I can take it or leave it. If it's left there I would like to be able to access it directly from my Profile page/Comment Received section. When I open the comments received page I should be able to select the helpful checkbox then (as well as on the image page also).
Anyone else have any thoughts/opinions on changes/improvements? ;^)
edit to add jhonan and robs posted during the lengthy time it took me to type this up. ;^)
Message edited by author 2006-04-17 13:26:47. |
|
|
|
04/17/2006 01:27:19 PM · #75 |
I to feel that the lack of comments really has dampened spirits around here, after all this is a learning website, and the best around if you ask me. I really have attempted lately to offer more constructive comments on images I'm voting on. I too have been very busy at home and at work so the time I do have is limited, but I still try to get at least 20% voted on and some comments in there as well.
I don't feel that 20% is too much to ask for really. I don't see the need to change that. I do however like the idea of any photo that is voted on AND commented on counting. I guess my first concern is that it will hurt the voting process.
Addressing comments that I don't feel are helpful. I understand that people have opinions and it's there right to comment as such on a shot that I chose to enter. If I feel the comment isn't helpful then hey, I don't mark it helpful, done move on. At least they did take the time to comment! In the end if you're thin skinned then I guess you need to heed a little saying that helps me through the tough times. "Opinions are like a$$holes, everybody has one."
Okay, done rambling now...back to your regularly scheduled program..
|
|
