| Author | Thread |
|
|
08/06/2006 05:22:13 PM · #1 |
OK, I posted a question about contracts like 10 days ago. I had a wedding client who had some questions, I clarified some things, re-worded the contract and sent it back out to her. Now I got another email from her about changing additional things in the contract...
Now, I like to be easy to work with, but this is starting to set off alarm bells for me. Just wondering if any of you have clients who want to change a lot of things in the contracts and such. Maybe this is just normal and I shouldn't worry about it, but I am hoping that things aren't going to continue to be this demanding and nit picky...
This is the section that she has concerns with...
"This agreement constitutes an order for wedding photography, albums
and
prints. It is understood that any and all proofs, sample prints and
digital
files remain the property of the photographer, Carisa Keeling, and they
may be
used for advertising, display or any purpose thought proper by Carisa
Keeling."
She is worried that it is too much a model release. I have it in there so that I can use the images for business promotion (like on my website and in sample album and such). Do I need to change it? Or should I just tell her what my intentions are? I'm a concerned that this type of thing could result in a bridezilla sort of thing...in which case maybe I should become unavailable...:)
And I know it will be suggested, so I will tell you up front that I already have a meeting with my lawyer to look over the contract.
Any advice or similar experiences out there?
|
|
|
|
08/06/2006 05:26:07 PM · #2 |
I have a similar clause in my contract and I had a client try to make me change it on Friday. The answer is "yes, but that will be $xxx extra" If you are simply not wanting to change your contract then tell her your contract is not up negotiation. If she really wants to hire you then she will. If she keeps insisting then she will probably be a pain in the butt even after you shoot the wedding and deliver the product. If you keep giving in, she will keep milking you for all you've got. Just my 2 cents.
June
|
|
|
|
08/06/2006 05:27:26 PM · #3 |
Seeing a lawyer is a good thing.
One reason I won't want to do wedding photography. Engagement pictures maybe, since there's less stress and you are more in control of posing, lighting, etc.
Good luck. |
|
|
|
08/06/2006 05:28:01 PM · #4 |
BTW, said client still booked me.
June
|
|
|
|
08/06/2006 05:31:53 PM · #5 |
Specific to your example:
You have worded it much broader than your intentions would need. If you only intend (or would want to) use the images for future promotions say it in the contract.
More general:
Your pricing is based on the effort you are expecting to put forth and what you are expecting to gain and give for that effort. The contract details what you gain and what you give (meaning what the client recieves). Any change in the contract changes the balance of give and gain -- and will therefore potentially change the pricing.
If the client wants you to gain less, they should be willing to compensate you for the loss. Other than that, contracts should always be considered open for negotiation -- although many will not want the hassle of negotiating.
It might be a good idea to decide what points of the contract you are willing to change and the pricing change for doing so.
David
|
|
|
|
08/06/2006 05:34:56 PM · #6 |
screw her...don't shoot the wedding.
|
|
|
|
08/06/2006 05:40:21 PM · #7 |
She also thinks that I should include how many pictures I will take, how many proofs she will get and how long it will take to get the proofs...
I have been considering adding a timeframe into the contract already...but since each wedding is so different I am a bit leary about quoting images and proof numbers. I mean at a small intimate wedding with no reception I will shoot significantly fewer images than at a large full blown wedding when I start with the bride doing her hair and go to the last dance....
Do you think it unreasonable to tell her that I am meeting with my lawyer and having him go over the contract? Word it in such a way that she doesn't feel it is on her account, but also to give a little more strength to my position. |
|
|
|
08/06/2006 05:42:35 PM · #8 |
| June...so do you use that clause as a model release also? Are you charging extra for the pain in the a** of changing the contract, or for the loss of using the images in any way you see fit? Just curious... |
|
|
|
08/06/2006 05:53:46 PM · #9 |
IIRC, from my very brief attempt at becoming an actress and needing headshots taken, the idea of being guaranteed so many photos and proof sheets etc. seems very film-oriented, going back to when you were limited by the nmber of exposures available on a roll of film. I bought a package for two rolls of film, and it was expected that not all of the photos would be usable.
Actually, saying something "I guarantee a 100 shot minimum" is actually a very low number for a photographer. Heck, I spent three hours at a lake yesterday and managed to take 191... imagine if you took three versions of each pose, plus the candids from the pre-ceremony and reception... and I bet that 100 sounds like a really big number to her. Just so long as she understands that she's not getting 100 photos. That's where packages come in. She can pick and choose to round out the package she's chosen, but she's not going to want all 100 and she should understand that.
I would have no problem adding an addendum to the contract noting that you reserve the right to use any photo for marketing purposes only, and that photo exclusivity comes at an additional charge.
Anyway, this is the opinion of someone who has never shot a wedding.
Message edited by author 2006-08-06 17:55:27. |
|
|
|
08/06/2006 06:04:40 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by carisakD70:
June...so do you use that clause as a model release also? Are you charging extra for the pain in the a** of changing the contract, or for the loss of using the images in any way you see fit? Just curious... |
Yes, the clause is used as a model release but I haven't had to change it yet. If I ever came across a client who wanted it removed/aletered badly, then I would charge. However, there are instances when I would do this free of charge, for example, if the bride, groom, close family or bridal party was a secret service agent or someone whose identity needs to remain unknown for security reasons (celebrities don't count). Otherwise, I'd charge because I could potentially be losing by not being able to use the images for advertizing, specially is the bride/couple is particularly good looking or the venue is really nice.
June
|
|
|
|
08/06/2006 06:53:48 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by carisakD70:
This is the section that she has concerns with...
"This agreement constitutes an order for wedding photography, albums
and
prints. It is understood that any and all proofs, sample prints and
digital
files remain the property of the photographer, Carisa Keeling, and they
may be
used for advertising, display or any purpose thought proper by Carisa
Keeling."
She is worried that it is too much a model release. |
The part I bolded is the part I'd be concerned about. This doesgive you the right to use the images for stock or commercial purposes (such as greeting cards, T-shirts, etc.). Limit your language to self-promotional usage and she shouldn't have a problem with it. |
|
|
|
08/06/2006 07:00:50 PM · #12 |
Carisa, this is the clause in my contract:
Copyright and Reproductions. The Photographer shall own the copyright in all images created and shall have the exclusive right to make reproductions. The Photographer shall only make reproductions for the client, the Photographer’s portfolio, samples, self promotion, entry in photographic contests or art exhibitions, editorial use, or for display within our outside of the Photographer’s studio, office, or other place of business. If the photographer desires to make other use, the Photographer shall not do so without first obtaining written permission of the client.
Note what the contract says I can do. What it implies I CANNOT do is sell the images in any way without the client's permission. That is something you may want to change or make clear in your contract. If yous still want to keep it the way you have it then do so, it's up to you and to the client.
June
|
|
|
|
08/06/2006 07:12:19 PM · #13 |
| So you've finally met "Bride-zilla" This is why I don't do weddings. Good luck and as far as the contract is concerned how about if you just word it as using them for advertising in your personal portfolio? She may feel a bit more comfortable with that. |
|
|
|
08/06/2006 07:14:27 PM · #14 |
I thought I would give you my take as a non-professional photographer but as someone with some experience of contracts. I have no doubt you are an honourable person, you would not be asking this question the way you are if you were not, however I will speak as devils advocate and give you no benefit of the doubt – as if I were a client:
Straight out – No way in the world would I sign the contract as it is worded. It has an open ender, specifically the words “… they may be used for … any purpose thought proper by Carisa Keeling". The words “advertising, display” are superfluous as the preceding quote gives you carte blanche anyway.
The contract would allow you to use images of myself, my family and my friends for anything, including posting them to www.kinkyPornoRealLifeFetishBrides.com. This may seem extreme and that I would have redress to the courts if you did so, however your contract is clear and unambiguous and my two bit lawyer would have a hard time against your big shot slicker convincing anybody I didn’t understand what I was getting into. I read it, I signed it, I’m screwed!
I know you didn’t mean it this way and what I have just said seems a little strong, however this is how I would have to read it as a client.
I would be happy, as a client if the contract listed specific uses limited to your bridal photography business and I would probably sign a separate model release with appropriate limitations if it was your intention to sell them as advertising images for a bridal wear catalogue for example. (I’m not a model, I don’t want my picture used any old how, after all.)
I’ll take my devil horns off now :-) and say this is just my opinion and I’m sorry how harsh it sounded. But that’s the way ya gotta think at times :-(
At the end of the day though, it is your contract and you shouldn’t let your customers push you around, it’s a two way street and you have got to earn a living. Finding the right equitable balance can be hard.
Respect, Mike
Message edited by author 2006-08-06 19:18:33. |
|
|
|
08/06/2006 07:15:20 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by jtf6agent:
So you've finally met "Bride-zilla" |
 |
|
|
|
08/06/2006 07:15:31 PM · #16 |
| Don't include a minimum number of photos you will take. Only show the ones that are good, never show every picture taken unless they are all perfect. Your reputation rests on everyone of the photos that goes public. Assure them that you will have a large selection in various poses. Also limit your liability to the money received and no more. That will not completely protect you but if you include a statement that any dissagreement must be settled by arbitration then you are much more protected. Arbitration is expensive and they will have to put up money to even go to arbitration. Again limit arbitration to the amount that they paid. You will not have any problems then unless you deliberatly or in bad faith fail to respond. |
|
|
|
08/06/2006 07:23:00 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by jtf6agent:
So you've finally met "Bride-zilla" |
|
See, thats what happens when you sign a carte blanche contract. lmao |
|
|
|
08/06/2006 07:27:43 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by Chiqui:
Carisa, this is the clause in my contract: |
Excellent language such as this should resolve any problems ... if not, get another client.
For more detailed info you might want to check out the books at Nolo Press |
|
|
|
08/06/2006 08:12:54 PM · #19 |
Thanks so much for all of the replies and advice.
Art...that pic is hilarious!! I just about shot water out my nose when I saw it!
Mike...Thanks, sometimes it helps to try and see the other side of it. I had never looked at it that way because I would never dream of abusing my priviledge as a photog...but that doesn't mean that everyone is that way.
June...One last question...With that statement what do you do it you sell a CD/DVD of proofs and they get their own prints made, or do you not do that at all?
thanks guys!! |
|
|
|
08/06/2006 08:17:32 PM · #20 |
My wife deals with weddings, constantly. She's not doing photos, but clothing. The same kinds of issues crop up every time. Wording of agreements, brides wanting to change things after they've been agreed on...
Brides are evil. Isn't that Newton's second law? |
|
|
|
08/06/2006 08:56:40 PM · #21 |
Ok, this is what I am going to put into the contract...
1. This agreement constitutes an order for wedding photography, albums and prints. It is understood that the photographer, Carisa Keeling, shall own the copyright in all images created and shall have the exclusive right to make reproductions. The photographer, Carisa Keeling, shall only make reproductions for the clients’ personal use and for the advertising and promotional purposes of Keeling Classic Photography. Advertising and promotional purposes include, but are not limited to: sample albums, sample prints, business cards and other forms of self promotion, entry into photographic contests and art exhibitions, editorial use, and display within or outside of the Keeling Classic Photography studio or other place of business. If the photographer, Carisa Keeling, desires to make other use of the images or digital files said photographer shall not do so without first obtaining written consent from the client. If digital proofs are purchased on CD/DVD then a typed copyright statement will be included with the CD/DVD allowing the client to make reproductions for personal display use only.
Initial Here___________
I am also going to tell her that I am taking it to a lawyer and that further changes may be more complicated to make once he looks at it. I also added that proofs will be ready for viewing 3-4 weeks following the wedding and that albums generally take 4-6 weeks after final approval. I am NOT going to add anything about how many pictures I will take and how many proofs I will give her...we have already discussed that issue and she knows what to expect for her type of wedding.
|
|
|
|
08/07/2006 05:23:32 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by carisakD70:
Thanks so much for all of the replies and advice.
Art...that pic is hilarious!! I just about shot water out my nose when I saw it!
Mike...Thanks, sometimes it helps to try and see the other side of it. I had never looked at it that way because I would never dream of abusing my priviledge as a photog...but that doesn't mean that everyone is that way.
June...One last question...With that statement what do you do it you sell a CD/DVD of proofs and they get their own prints made, or do you not do that at all?
thanks guys!! |
If I sell a CD or DVD with images then I give them a Limited Rights Release that allows them to use the images for personal use.
June
|
|
|
|
08/07/2006 05:30:52 AM · #23 |
I have a seperate section in my contract about a 'model release' requesting their permission to use their photos for my promotional work. It is up to them but I've never had anyone refuse. It is totally up to them if they want to sign that section and agree to it.
|
|
|
|
08/07/2006 08:43:42 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by carisakD70:
She also thinks that I should include how many pictures I will take, how many proofs she will get and how long it will take to get the proofs...
|
Do not do not do not do not! :) This should not be a contract issue. If dang fool grandpa makes an ugly face at the wrong time and puts you under the minimum, you're in breach of contract and an evil attorney could cause the whole thing to be void. As well, if you had a severe illness and could not deliver until two days late, same situation.
I wouldn't like this client at all. Sounds like she's gotten lots of advice from people who picked bad photographers for their weddings and feel like she needs to protect herself from the problems they had.
Make no mistake, MOST people feel like their wedding photographer screwed them royally, charged too much, and didn't give them what they promised.
JMHO. |
|
|
|
08/07/2006 10:57:06 AM · #25 |
Your new wording looks a lot better. Having a lawyer look at it is a good idea. One day you may get into a dispute with a client and their smart-ass lawyer will dissect your contract and attempt to make all sorts of implications out of it that you never intended. It’s not something to worry about, just something to be aware of.
You are getting lots of great advice from the other photographers who have way more experience of this type of contract than I do. I‘m sure with their help and a scan over by a lawyer you will find a tight but equitable contract that suites your needs. It’s a bit of a chore but you only need to do it once. A well-written contract will help to keep your clients happy (you stand to get more business) and protect your interests (you'll make more money and not get sued). The only thing you’ll have to worry about then is "Bride-zilla"
|
|
