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10/26/2006 08:17:49 PM · #1
Hi:

Out of impulse I decided to put my photography equipment to good use and run a basic photography business PT. I work FT as an immigration case manager and I'm happy with my job but this is also an opportunity for me to be creative and push myself to be a better photographer. In the last two months that I've started this, I've received the following:

1. E-mail from a bride who has contacted me about a wedding in Tucker, GA but has been slow to communicate with me. The number she provided and the address she gave me both don't jive. The phone number doesn't work; the address is in Yarmouth, ME and I she gives me strange responses. I suspect that it's a competitor trying to get prices or messing with my head. Actually I am almost certain of it!

2. I got a nasty e-mail from another photographer because I recently told a bride that if she wasn't happy about the way her engagement shots came out, that she should talk to the photographer AND if she continued being uncomfortable, that she should consider getting out of the contract. I see no reason for ANYONE being stuck in a situation that's not going to work even if it means a loss of deposit - but that's just me. Before anyone jumps on me on this - I wasn't getting the brides business or anything like that. In any case, this photographer threatened to forward my information to all the wedding planners and photographers in the area because I didn't stick the photographers "code". In addition, she forwards the URL to where the e-photos are and tells me it's the brides fault (as to why they didn't turn out well). Now, I'm a newbie to business, but I have some photography skills and even I could understand why the bride was upset. Long story short - I didn't give her an opinion about the photos but briefly told her (the photographer)that she can fix the problem or not, but I really didn't care because it's not my (photography) business. I was fairly blunt but that's part of the whole honest and direct approach I take in life.

Anyways...

3. On the first week I started advertising, I got an e-mail from a local photography place telling me to get out of the business, saying I sucked etc. I'm well aware of my limitations and I am not marketing myself as an expert. I represent myself as what I am "an-up-and-coming" photographer building a portfolio. That's my goal the next 12 months.

I really don't care about the threats or "get out of business" e-mails but I wonder if things do get this dramatic in the business. There's a TON of business around the area, and I don't see any reason for "competitor" threats etc. I have a thick skin and I can handle the intrustion and ridiculousness, but I wonder how bad it gets or if you guys have had similar experiences starting up.

Sorry about this being long-winded and thank you in advance for your thoughts. I am not looking for "flaming-told-you-so" posts - just some helpful hints in case there's something I should anticipate being in this business.

Charlotte

10/26/2006 08:31:29 PM · #2
If they are bothered by you then I suspect you are doing something right. Either way, it's a comment on them not you, so forget about it.
10/26/2006 08:36:51 PM · #3
I'm sorry about your bad experience. I've met most of the pros in my area and have found them all to be helpful and friendly. I'm not sure what I would do if I had competitors trying to sabotage me, but I certainly wouldn't let them run me out of the business. Phuque that! :p
10/26/2006 09:04:52 PM · #4
That all sounds like crap to me. I wouldn't worry about it.

1. Invite the "bride" to sit down and discuss her plans and look at your work. If she no-shows, then either she's a phony or a flake, either way, you're likely better off without her. You prices are not state secrets, just send them. The competition will figure them out soon enough anyway, if they are soo afraid of some competition that they would resort to deception to get them, so be it.

2. The photographer likley felt like you were trying to steal his client and while threats are a pretty lame way to deal with it, I can understand their anger to a degree. Honestly, not a good way to gain the respect of your peers.

3. When in doubt, quote a Mel Brooks film. In this case, from Spaceballs, "What's the matter Colonel Sanders, chicken?"
10/26/2006 09:17:45 PM · #5
That all sounds like crap to me. I wouldn't worry about it.

1. Invite the "bride" to sit down and discuss her plans and look at your work. If she no-shows, then either she's a phony or a flake, either way, you're likely better off without her. You prices are not state secrets, just send them. The competition will figure them out soon enough anyway, if they are soo afraid of some competition that they would resort to deception to get them, so be it.

*I'd do an invite but she's supposedly in Tucker, GA (I'm in Charlotte, NC) and under normal circumstances, I would want a sit-down. She does has my prices. I have everything in writing. Forwarded the contracts, explained my requirements - just something's not right. I researched the phone numbers and addresses and she gave me some strange responses. I just kept checking (part of the research/nosy side of me) - I'm certain this this is just some BS from someone that thinks it's funny. I'd be surprised if I get a response by Nov. 1. Told her if I don't get a valid phone number for her, for her fiance, and her MOH, that she needs to contact another photographer because I can't do a good job with the uncertain communication with her.

2. The photographer likley felt like you were trying to steal his client and while threats are a pretty lame way to deal with it, I can understand their anger to a degree. Honestly, not a good way to gain the respect of your peers.

*I have no desire to steal anyone's clients. I'm a firm believer in a good product will sell itself. I work in a law firm and I know that clients come back to me because I do an excellent job for them. I certainly am not trying to piss anyone off and maybe she did feel offended or worried that I'd take her business but that again isn't my problem. Maybe it's a horrible attitude to take - I am happy to help and listen but I certainly am not in the mood to build someone's self esteem especially after she went off on me over e-mail. But you are right, she may have been worried but she criticized my photos and my prices so I don't know what she had to worry about?... LOL.. Oh well, live and learn

3. When in doubt, quote a Mel Brooks film. In this case, from Spaceballs, "What's the matter Colonel Sanders, chicken?"

I love Spaceballs.
10/26/2006 09:43:49 PM · #6
Originally posted by cjaya78:

Anyways...

3. On the first week I started advertising, I got an e-mail from a local photography place telling me to get out of the business, saying I sucked etc.

Copies of this should go to your local District Attorney and the Better Business Bureau -- it is illegal (extortion, restraint of trade, etc.).
10/26/2006 10:01:14 PM · #7
I did complain with the BBB because I though it's poor busines ethics.

I didn't go as far as file criminal charges because all they said was my pictures sucked and that I should consider getting out of business. I talked with one of the attys at the firm I work at and he said it's workable if I wanted to deal with the hassle.

Either way, these e-mails are just added motivation to do better. I'm just surprised, that's all. I really am no threat to anyone...
10/26/2006 10:04:32 PM · #8
Originally posted by cjaya78:

I talked with one of the attys at the firm I work at and he said it's workable if I wanted to deal with the hassle.

How much did he bill you? ; )

Sounds like you have a good handle on the situation -- I'm sure you'll do fine.
10/26/2006 10:20:30 PM · #9
LOL... He's the managing partner (criminal cases) and I got a freebie! It also does help that I do good work, so every now and then when I need advice, I can get it with no issue. I guess it's one of the perks of working with lawyers.

Thanks again...

Charlotte
10/26/2006 10:54:55 PM · #10
Well show us some of your work, it looks like you are pretty new here. If you put some photos in your portfolio I'm sure you can get help from the great people here at DPC.

Message edited by author 2006-10-27 10:15:42.
10/26/2006 11:03:32 PM · #11
There are 5 types of photographers...

The Hobbyists - Most weekend warriors and Uncle Harry fit here. Hobbyists mostly, once asked to do a wedding for some money see it as fast and easy cash, something fun, a way to buy a new lens. They have no desire to be a pro, many give only proofs or a CD. They don't advertise, rarely have websites and are not a threat to anyone, but some move up to Newbie.

The Newbie - will work for free at times, or cheap. Have not learned why prices are the way they are, doesn't not approach the business as a business and all that goes with 'protecting and improving the image of the industry' that they are now part of.

The Insecure A@@hole - (you've found one!) These folks are barely in business - be it in years in the biz or more often, barely financially solvent, and view any newbie as a threat to their business, they money, their clients, etc. They are slime (yes, i've met one or two myself). Ignore them, they grow up or leave the business.

The Real Professional Photographer - these folks are what make this a great profession! The overwhelming majority are happy to help newbies, are not bothered by hobbyists, ignore the insecure, do thei job well and pretty much get along with eachother and will help their competetion in a pinch with labor, equipment, etc.

The Superstars - Those few photographers that get famous, or want to be famous or get rich - bambi cantrel, joe buissink, yervant are three in the wedding industry. Vicki Taufer is one too - a 6 year old studio started in her basement and now she's a financial success and on the lecture circuit and will probably have a book out soon. The one's I admire are like Ralph Romaguera or Michael Redford - they're extremely successful studio owners that do go and speak, but are primarily photographers that love the profession and want to spread that love.

10/27/2006 09:32:08 AM · #12
Yes - I am fairly new and lurking. Tried posting photos last night but realized I needed to obtain membership. Will prob do it in the next few days so that I can post photos. It's hard to have a decent objective mind when everyone else says the photos are decent because I think they could be better! So will look forward to critique...

Thank you all for your thoughts - as I said, not overly concerned about what's said. I'm quite aware of who I am and what I can (and cannot do) do. Just interesting that people would take the time to write me nasty little notes.

Enjoy your Friday,

Charlotte
10/27/2006 10:00:30 AM · #13
My what an interesting experience! Your response to it all says a lot about who you are :-)
I think Prof_Fate summed up the motivation for the nasty-grams incredibly well.
Good luck on the business, and hope to see you in a blue shirt (member) soon. Welcome to DPC!
10/27/2006 11:41:16 AM · #14
The Newbie - will work for free at times, or cheap. Have not learned why prices are the way they are, doesn't not approach the business as a business and all that goes with 'protecting and improving the image of the industry' that they are now part of.

I learned the hard way the past 2+ years as a case manager that people WILL take advantage of your kindness. My boss who is the attorney is excellent but he's too nice about payment. Watching how he deals with business has helped me understand that while I may be "up-and-coming" now that I also need to make sure that I have financial and contractual commitment from clients. I thought about offering "free" services but realized that I'm not a horrible photographer - I'm decent, I've got decent equipment, and the financial viability (thanks to DH who lets me pursue my hobbies) to do what I need to do to get better. As you said, I want to approach this as a business BUT I also realize that I'm building my skills - so I kinda need to downgrade prices, throw in a freebie or two (part of package) and keep my costs low (initially). After all, I may play with an EOS 5D but I'm only good at photography if I know what I'm doing with it (9 times out of 10) etc.

Things I have learned so far - also helps that I do a lot of this at work:

1. Ignore stupid remarks from competitors
2. Do not spend time on clients that haven't committed to hiring me. The more time I spend on them, the less time I could be advertising my work or taking photographs
3. Do not give away work for free. I am worth more than "0"
4. Keep receipts, files, records, written correspondence, contracts etc.
5. Keep working on the quality of photos
6. Need to work on marketing avenues - don't just want to shoot just weddings (afraid of fussy brides - I was never a crazy bride!)
7. Oh yeah, and post portfolio on www.dpchallenge.com for critique (scary stuff)

Oh well - thanks again for listening to my rants and ravings this morning. It's been interesting

Charlotte

10/27/2006 01:11:37 PM · #15
8. Find a niche - what will people think of you for? If I want a photo of x I go to you.
10/27/2006 01:18:06 PM · #16
Rather than low-balling your prices, I suggest setting "regular" prices, and then offering substantial discounts -- "first-time client" or "special promotion" are good excuses. If you set your prices too low now, it will be harder to justify raising them substantially in the future.
10/27/2006 01:24:25 PM · #17
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Rather than low-balling your prices, I suggest setting "regular" prices, and then offering substantial discounts -- "first-time client" or "special promotion" are good excuses. If you set your prices too low now, it will be harder to justify raising them substantially in the future.


Ok - fair suggestion. That's something I am willing to consider and I think a great idea.
10/27/2006 01:49:43 PM · #18
Originally posted by samchad:

8. Find a niche - what will people think of you for? If I want a photo of x I go to you.


Agreed - there are too many wedding photographers wannabes in the area and I am fine with taking corporate photos, but I think it would be neat to serve the interests of families on the go. But whether there's a demand for such a thing is another things all together. That's where market research and some common sensibilities (on my part) may help.

I've thought about "portraits on the go" where I'd go to the client, set up at their homes, put up backgrounds etc. That way the parental units don't have to deal with dragging their kids over etc. That and I don't have a studio (yet!).

Will see what becomes of this... :) I have 12-months to work myself up.

By the way, I had a phone call from this guy who wants me to take his daughter's wedding and then goes, "I'm technical, could you explain what you mean by high resolution photos etc." I did get a little tongue tied before composing myself but I guess another thing to remember is to remember my specs and making sure I know my equipment (info) in case some person decides to go techie on me.

10/27/2006 02:27:25 PM · #19
Why prices are they way they are is 'cause that's what it takes to stay in business. You have costs - and if your business is going to succeed it has to pay thoses costs, pay you something (eventually) and give you enough money to grown the business.

Make a business plan...something simple is fine, but here is one idea

for 2007 I want to buy X lens and studios strobes. ($1500)
i need to upgrade my computer, and buy CS2 ($1000)
Education: I want to join PPA, DPC, get a magazine subscritpion, a few books, and some videos from //www.photovisionvideo.com ($400)
Advertising: I need business cards, website, and want to do a bridal show ($1500)
Samples: 2 albums, 10 prints to show clients ($500)
Insurance: business liability and equipment ($550)
Office: envelopes, paper, postage, etc, etc, ($200)
-you can make the list longer (phone, car, travel, lunches for clients, etc)
Add that up and suddenly you need to make $5,650 just to pay the bills!

So how will you make that money?
3 weddings at $1000, prints and albums sales $400, xmas pet shoot $500, fine art sales at the local flea market, a few family portraits....

You can see how it can get 'compicated' in a hurry - but is a business like any other business - a coffeee shop or 7-11 or auto repair or a hair dresser. taking photos is perhaps 25% of the deal.

get a few books on the business of photography and starting and running your own business and find the local PPA affiliate and go and chat people up - you'll find this is a wonderful field to be in but it's like any other work - it's, umm, work.
See my sig for a nice quote about this.

Oh, critique of your wedding photos...don't worry about the folks here, they're way soft and warm and fuzzy. Go over the //www.fredmiranda.com site and post a few pics in their wedding forum. You've been warned, so please don't cry.
You want to see the real pro attitude, go and read the forums at //www.prophotohome.com/.

Message edited by author 2006-10-27 14:29:32.
10/27/2006 02:29:45 PM · #20
An excellent source of books on running a business and on IP (copyright) law is Nolo Press -- some titles may be available in your local library.
10/27/2006 02:37:33 PM · #21
When I was starting out in the business many, many years ago, a friend whom I was seeking as a client offered me this advice: "You're not charging enough to be taken seriously."

He was right. As soon as I doubled my day rate, the work starting flowing in regularly. My potential client base understood industry-standard pricing very well, from experience, and I was charging so much less that it caused them to wonder what the catch was: was I reliable, was I really any good, etc etc.

Plus, of course, there are plenty of people who just "assume" if something is expensive it is the best :-)

R.

Message edited by author 2006-10-27 14:38:03.
10/27/2006 02:42:41 PM · #22
Originally posted by cjaya78:



I've thought about "portraits on the go" where I'd go to the client, set up at their homes, put up backgrounds etc. That way the parental units don't have to deal with dragging their kids over etc. That and I don't have a studio (yet!).

By the way, I had a phone call from this guy who wants me to take his daughter's wedding and then goes, "I'm technical, could you explain what you mean by high resolution photos etc." I did get a little tongue tied before composing myself but I guess another thing to remember is to remember my specs and making sure I know my equipment (info) in case some person decides to go techie on me.


If you want, or need to make serious money (aka be profitable) then you need to get the workflow (on site and on teh computer) very streamlined and standardized. If you can shoot a portrait in your studio (basement, garage, rented church hall,etc) in 15 to 30 minutes and get $200 in sales/profit and you drive to their house, setup, shoot, tear down and drive home (perhaps an hour to 90 minutes) you better get $400-600 in sales from it. It's the same reason Doctor's don't make housecalls anymore but instead have a waiting line of patients at the office. I know many studios that shoot HS seniors and since it take 5 -10 mins for akid to change clothes they are literally shooting 5 at a time - shoot one and they go to change while the next is shot, and repeat. in between the 5 you change BGs or lighting, etc.

Part of it is what market are you shooting for - high end or low end? To get high end you need to have top noth work, presentation skills (aka sales) and all the rest that go with that level of clientele and service.

I started out delivering the prints to my customers - top notch service and i get to see their reactions, but found they'll come to me or pay $4 for the mail. Saves me time and gas.

You're confidence level will come up. Don't be giving away hi-res files! Sell them if you want, or include them once the client spends $X. You're product is the PRINT, NOT the digital file. You can sell an 8x10 for $10-$80 (depends on your market and such) and it costs you $1. You can sell a wedding album for $500 or more and it costs you maybe $150 and 8 hours time. That's $350 cash in your pocket. You have to have the confidence they'll pay what you ask, pay what you're worth.

I'm still working at that myself. I did a shoot for free for the Carnegie Libarary in a town over from here. I got me foot in the door. I did a paid shoot (2 hours for $60, they get hi-res on CD for their newsletter, etc). they told me I was too cheap. So I told them next time it's $90/hour, 2 hour minimum. they said that's fine with them! It may still be cheap to some, but it fits my business model.

check out //www.nppa.org/professional_development/business_practices/cdb/cdbcalc.cfm for some eye opening answers to what you need to charge!

10/27/2006 03:40:00 PM · #23
We actually have a workshop that I could turn into a workable studio but it's at our home and husband has issues with that. I do understand that but it's an option that I can certainly think about.

I've got a lot to think about - that's why I think I did the wise thing of working myself in 12-months versus pushing it and making mistakes. This way I do it right.

To summarize:

1. Charge more to be taken seriously (obviously this is also based of experience level); don't lowball - instead offer promotion of some sort (i.e. kinda gimmick, marketing tactic)
2. Consider on-site structure for studio work
3. Don't give up digital images; money's in the prints (I agree but it seems so easy right now to just let things go for volume! - must rethink this)
4. I'm sure over time, I'll have increased confidence. I am "ok" now but I am not sure I would do well with tantamounts of criticism. I can stomach it at work because I pretty much go "Screw you, I know what I'm doing!" because I specialize in it and it's an incredible nitch to have (immigration law). I guess the same thing will apply with business.
5. Check out business resources (I've been doing that but I need to do more). I've been looking up other photographer sites and reading what they have on their sites. Reading contracts info (to protect myself) etc.

You guys are a very helpful bunch of people. Thank you.

I will post photos tonight or this weekend. There's car show in Charlotte, NC and I've got tickets - it's part my anniversary gift (two years) to the hubby! I also get to take photos, so we'll see how that goes... :)

Charlotte
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