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02/20/2007 05:35:59 PM · #51
Originally posted by Artyste:

Also, it was my understanding that any camera that has an orientation sensor and auto-rotates in camera, will be copied over to the hard drive already auto-rotated.. but I guess I was mistaken on that point?

I don't remember the software, but I've seen some that seem to ignore the "rotate" bit set by the camera, but once that particular software sets a bit, it remembers that, so apparently some software reads different spots in the file for that info.

My experience, at least. Not conclusive.
02/20/2007 05:39:27 PM · #52
Originally posted by Artyste:

Originally posted by GinaRothfels:

Originally posted by skylercall:

Originally posted by GinaRothfels:

Originally posted by Artyste:

Originally posted by GinaRothfels:

The only thing I've often wondered about is whether using the rotate buttons in 'Windows Picture and Fax Viewer' has any effect on the file.


I remember a discussion about this that concluded that using rotate in Windows Picture and Fax Viewer *does indeed* alter the file.

So I'd just be safer than sorry and not do it.


Eek, now I have to look at all my photos sideways to decide whether they have potential as challenge entries. That will hurt.


Take a picture you don't care about (or a copy of one you do) and right click on the thumbnail within widows explorer and click on rotate thumbnail. Check the file size after this and you will see that it is smaller. Keep rotating it and keep checking the file size. It gets smaller and smaller every time. As for opening the file in Windows Picture Viewer you can rotate it there to look at. Just don't save it.


That's actually what I was asking about, not rotating in Photoshop. No saving involved. But how do I know it's not doing a save that I don't know about?


We must be getting lines crossed somewhere.. I never once mentioned photoshop. I meant saving copies in a new folder to open with Windows Picture Viewer so you can rotate and look at them at leisure without having to mess up your originals. Also, it was my understanding that any camera that has an orientation sensor and auto-rotates in camera, will be copied over to the hard drive already auto-rotated.. but I guess I was mistaken on that point?

anyway, I didn't mean anything about photoshop. I never save copies of my images when I work in photoshop myself.. I just be sure to use "save as..." in order to leave the original completely untouched.


I don't use 'save' in PS either, always 'save as' and change to a PSD file to prevent unnecessary jpeg compression.

Now that I think about it, the last photo I have validated (February last year), the original had been rotated it Windows Picture Viewer. So maybe it is alright.

I realise you were talking about saving copies in a new folder to rotate, it just gets a bit messy if I'm always duplicating things and never get round to deleting the copies.
02/20/2007 05:39:54 PM · #53
Originally posted by tooohip:


I transfer with Nikon Transfer than rotate all vertical shots so I don't have to look at them sideways. Are you now saying, I need to save them and take up additional hard drive space just to be safe from this?

This is starting to not be fun anymore if I constantly need to worry about DQ's because I forgot something so ludicrous.


They've been trying to tell us this for a LONG time. I recall a thread soon after I joined, and I started right then dragging and dropping one file straight from the card into a dpc folder if I think I have anything I might use. It stays untouched, while I copy another folder for playing with.
This isn't anything new!
02/20/2007 05:41:04 PM · #54
Originally posted by Artyste:

it was my understanding that any camera that has an orientation sensor and auto-rotates in camera, will be copied over to the hard drive already auto-rotated..


The camera just sets a flag in software that some applications can read. The original file will always be horizontal because that's the way the sensor is oriented in the camera.
02/20/2007 05:42:01 PM · #55
(didn't read whole thread)

but when you use RAW, you're safe anyway, right!?
you can't overwrite your RAW-file, because PS doesn't support that file to be written, so you always "save as".

works for me. I never make copies.
02/20/2007 05:44:37 PM · #56
Originally posted by BeeCee:


They've been trying to tell us this for a LONG time. I recall a thread soon after I joined, and I started right then dragging and dropping one file straight from the card into a dpc folder if I think I have anything I might use. It stays untouched, while I copy another folder for playing with.
This isn't anything new!


So what you're saying is my frustration with this is misplaced? I guess my frustration should be with Nikon for altering my damn EXIF data simply because I want to view a portrait oriented image properly... ;-)

OK OK, I get it. Nothing new and I'll just have to remember that my damn software is f'n with me! ;-)
02/20/2007 05:45:21 PM · #57
Originally posted by GinaRothfels:

I always use cut and paste, so I'm okay. The only thing I've often wondered about is whether using the rotate buttons in 'Windows Picture and Fax Viewer' has any effect on the file, bearing in mind that the cameras I use have an orientation sensor (as do most current cameras).


Here's a small example why you shouldn't rotate with Windows Viewer.

Original: Rotated 100 times: Which one do you prefer?
02/20/2007 05:45:40 PM · #58
Originally posted by nards656:

Originally posted by Artyste:

Also, it was my understanding that any camera that has an orientation sensor and auto-rotates in camera, will be copied over to the hard drive already auto-rotated.. but I guess I was mistaken on that point?

I don't remember the software, but I've seen some that seem to ignore the "rotate" bit set by the camera, but once that particular software sets a bit, it remembers that, so apparently some software reads different spots in the file for that info.

My experience, at least. Not conclusive.


I've always found this a bit confusing. I'm not sure all my cameras react the same way. I've noticed that Windows Picture Viewer will rotate my originals without any problem, but if I try to rotate an edited image, it will give a warning that information may be lost (something along those lines, anyway).

As far as other programs changing originals is concerned, I used PS Elements to download my camera for a while UNTIL the fateful day I used it to download some video footage and all it gave me was 640X480 stills with the original lost forever. I'll never be able to repeat that footage and it still hurts 18 months later.
02/20/2007 05:51:12 PM · #59
Originally posted by hajeka:

Originally posted by GinaRothfels:

I always use cut and paste, so I'm okay. The only thing I've often wondered about is whether using the rotate buttons in 'Windows Picture and Fax Viewer' has any effect on the file, bearing in mind that the cameras I use have an orientation sensor (as do most current cameras).


Here's a small example why you shouldn't rotate with Windows Viewer.

Original: Rotated 100 times: Which one do you prefer?


That's pretty scary. Now I'm even more confused, because I did have one rotated image accepted as an original. I don't know how to read EXIF data, so I'll never be able to tell whether it's messing with my images or not. I see your 'original' was converted from RAW though, so technically it wasn't an original. Maybe that ties up with my experience referred to in my previous post.

Edit: I just tried rotating an alternative crop of my challenge entry 100 times and I can't see any difference. The properties still show the date it was edited as Sunday, so I presume it hasn't made any change to it. Maybe I'll just go on doing things the way I always have and risk a DQ. It doesn't look like I'm EVER going to get a ribbon anyway, so there's nothing much to lose.

Message edited by author 2007-02-20 17:56:41.
02/20/2007 05:53:36 PM · #60
Originally posted by scalvert:

...Photoshop war dance on it...


Where do I get that plug-in? :-)
02/20/2007 05:59:12 PM · #61
Originally posted by tooohip:

Originally posted by BeeCee:


They've been trying to tell us this for a LONG time. I recall a thread soon after I joined, and I started right then dragging and dropping one file straight from the card into a dpc folder if I think I have anything I might use. It stays untouched, while I copy another folder for playing with.
This isn't anything new!


So what you're saying is my frustration with this is misplaced? I guess my frustration should be with Nikon for altering my damn EXIF data simply because I want to view a portrait oriented image properly... ;-)

OK OK, I get it. Nothing new and I'll just have to remember that my damn software is f'n with me! ;-)


Yup :D It IS frustrating, but it's not DPC's fault :)

Actually, it would be nice if the various softwares would include a warning if they alter data.
02/20/2007 06:02:01 PM · #62
Originally posted by BakerBug:

Originally posted by scalvert:

...Photoshop war dance on it...


Where do I get that plug-in? :-)


I think you can buy it from Joey Lawrence... ;-P
02/20/2007 06:03:51 PM · #63
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by BakerBug:

Originally posted by scalvert:

...Photoshop war dance on it...


Where do I get that plug-in? :-)


I think you can buy it from Joey Lawrence... ;-P


Damn! I've been using the rain dance plug-in! :(
02/20/2007 06:10:46 PM · #64
Just did a little check. (Had to read the camera manual just to find where my card was in the camera and look in all the mess in my room to find a card reader). Did a md5sum (kind of check if files are identical).

JPEG downloaded with EOS utility or copied from card: files are completely identical. Just do anything with it (adding label or keywords) and you don't have the original anymore.

I'm so happy, I can use my preffered download method!

Autorotate: windows viewer doesn't see the rotation, most other programs do, probably some bit in the file.
02/20/2007 06:16:55 PM · #65
Originally posted by muckpond:

edit: gramer

LOL
02/20/2007 06:27:43 PM · #66
Originally posted by Artyste:


It isn't absurd if you just gave up on the transfer software to begin with.. It's actually safer and easier on your camera to just invest in a card reader and have done with it. That way you just cut/paste all your photo, save wear and tear on your camera's USB connector, and ensure you never worry about whether or not your photo has been altered for DPC :)


My computer already has a card reader. The USB cable on my D200 has never been used. But with all the uncertainty about whether even the OS will corrupt the exif I've never been sure if my raw files are acceptable. So I appreciate your suggestion, but I've never used transfer software since I became a member at DPC.
02/20/2007 06:35:43 PM · #67
Originally posted by fir3bird:

Originally posted by Artyste:


It isn't absurd if you just gave up on the transfer software to begin with.. It's actually safer and easier on your camera to just invest in a card reader and have done with it. That way you just cut/paste all your photo, save wear and tear on your camera's USB connector, and ensure you never worry about whether or not your photo has been altered for DPC :)


My computer already has a card reader. The USB cable on my D200 has never been used. But with all the uncertainty about whether even the OS will corrupt the exif I've never been sure if my raw files are acceptable. So I appreciate your suggestion, but I've never used transfer software since I became a member at DPC.


Then I don't get your worry.. this was entirely *about* transfer software.. with just one small issue regarding Windows Picture and Fax Viewer.. which isn't the OS, but a program that comes *with* the OS.
If you copy/paste, and don't save over the original using your regular "photoshopping" program, you'll never have a problem. And, as was originally stated.. RAW images don't even get modified with the tranfer programs.
02/20/2007 06:52:11 PM · #68
Originally posted by Artyste:



Then I don't get your worry..


The worry is that *NOBODY* can tell you with certainty about any method. SC won't tell you because they're scared to reveal too much about their methods of validation. So, in the one and a million chance I do get a blue ribbon, I don't want to have to go postal on somebody because of some obscure, arcane, rediculous, technicality. That's the worry. ;)

I went through this just after I joined and thought I'd not encounter it again. I thought it was already being enforced strictly after that thread. I never realized that exceptions were still being granted. After the minimal rules were started, I've started shooting Raw+jpg. So from now on I'll simply strip out the jpg and store them on my networked backup drives. In the unlikely event I need to be validated I'll just send in the unedited jpg. Solution found. And BTW, no uprising here. I'm simply discussing the topic of this thread.
;)

02/20/2007 06:57:57 PM · #69
Originally posted by fir3bird:

Originally posted by Artyste:



Then I don't get your worry..


The worry is that *NOBODY* can tell you with certainty about any method. SC won't tell you because they're scared to reveal too much about their methods of validation. So, in the one and a million chance I do get a blue ribbon, I don't want to have to go postal on somebody because of some obscure, arcane, rediculous, technicality. That's the worry. ;)

I went through this just after I joined and thought I'd not encounter it again. I thought it was already being enforced strictly after that thread. I never realized that exceptions were still being granted. After the minimal rules were started, I've started shooting Raw+jpg. So from now on I'll simply strip out the jpg and store them on my networked backup drives. In the unlikely event I need to be validated I'll just send in the unedited jpg. Solution found. And BTW, no uprising here. I'm simply discussing the topic of this thread.
;)


lol.. I wasn't suggesting any uprising.

I'm of the opinion that this is just a simple reminder, and that perhaps because of the mass influx of new people that don't read old threads, and tend not to read the rules AT ALL.. (which is how it seems sometimes), that it was needed for clarification. I'm pretty sure that people aren't going around getting exceptions all over the place, and also consider the new SC members.. a good opportunity to also start solidifying old rules for their benefit as well.
02/20/2007 07:30:58 PM · #70
I'm curious, I've using batch file name changing in Adobe Bridge, so the original file name is lost? Do i still have a original? Or is the file altered, i use it on raw and jpeg images. This file name changing suits my work flow, so i would like to continue using it...but...?
02/20/2007 07:43:10 PM · #71
Originally posted by InDots:

I'm curious, I've using batch file name changing in Adobe Bridge, so the original file name is lost? Do i still have a original? Or is the file altered, i use it on raw and jpeg images. This file name changing suits my work flow, so i would like to continue using it...but...?


I've seen batch renaming bork the EXIF, but I can't recall which programs create this problem. If you like, take a COPY OF a known-good original and batch-rename it through Adobe Bridge, then send us the result via the Contact page. We'll check it out and let you know.

~Terry
02/20/2007 07:47:39 PM · #72
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

Originally posted by InDots:

I'm curious, I've using batch file name changing in Adobe Bridge, so the original file name is lost? Do i still have a original? Or is the file altered, i use it on raw and jpeg images. This file name changing suits my work flow, so i would like to continue using it...but...?


I've seen batch renaming bork the EXIF, but I can't recall which programs create this problem. If you like, take a COPY OF a known-good original and batch-rename it through Adobe Bridge, then send us the result via the Contact page. We'll check it out and let you know.

~Terry


Many Thanks, i'll will do that...hopefully it will pass.
02/20/2007 08:36:06 PM · #73
I know this is my problem, and not DPC's, but I have no idea how to tell, or how to ensure that what I do with jpeg files is kosher with this stuff you're telling me is transfer software.

I am not a computer person, I have no idea how to get pictures out of my camera and into the computer without using the Windows Picture and Fax Viewer....I just dump it into a file in My Pictures, process a copy of it, and submit it.

I actually fish it out of My Pictures with Bridge with the jpegs and I can double-click on a RAW file in the folder and it goes right into PS.

If it's getting doinked by that method, what am I, a complete computer moron, supposed to do?

Take a course so I can participate?

I have neither time nor money to learn how to work my computer well enough to navigate through it to know how to tell it to go into my camera with some sort of safe retraction setup that I wasn't even aware of 'til now.

I would presume that I am just one among many that knows enough about computers to get by, but only uses the bare minimum necessary to surf and upload some pics here and there.

I know it's a moot point for me most of the time 'cause I suck., but I almost melted down when I got the ribbon for my truck and it took me two days to even find the original file and the only reason I lucked out and was validated was because I had it in RAW and didn't know that I had already saved the original three times.

Most of what you guys are saying loses me.

So......

Am I just an anomaly, or is this a concern that interests the powers that be and some old hands here enough to investigate a little and maybe at least make suggestions as to what those of us who are pretty computer-challenged need to do to make sure we aren't screwing up?

Message edited by author 2007-02-20 20:38:40.
02/20/2007 08:45:35 PM · #74
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I know this is my problem, and not DPC's, but I have no idea how to tell, or how to ensure that what I do with jpeg files is kosher with this stuff you're telling me is transfer software.

I am not a computer person, I have no idea how to get pictures out of my camera and into the computer without using the Windows Picture and Fax Viewer....I just dump it into a file in My Pictures, process a copy of it, and submit it.

I actually fish it out of My Pictures with Bridge with the jpegs and I can double-click on a RAW file in the folder and it goes right into PS.

If it's getting doinked by that method, what am I, a complete computer moron, supposed to do?

Take a course so I can participate?

I have neither time nor money to learn how to work my computer well enough to navigate through it to know how to tell it to go into my camera with some sort of safe retraction setup that I wasn't even aware of 'til now.

I would presume that I am just one among many that knows enough about computers to get by, but only uses the bare minimum necessary to surf and upload some pics here and there.

I know it's a moot point for me most of the time 'cause I suck., but I almost melted down when I got the ribbon for my truck and it took me two days to even find the original file and the only reason I lucked out and was validated was because I had it in RAW and didn't know that I had already saved the original three times.

Most of what you guys are saying loses me.

So......

Am I just an anomaly, or is this a concern that interests the powers that be and some old hands here enough to investigate a little and maybe at least make suggestions as to what those of us who are pretty computer-challenged need to do to make sure we aren't screwing up?


You don't have to take any courses.. or use any "safe extraction software" (where *that* even came up, I don't know.. lol).

But doing a bit of reading and asking simple, effective questions would be a heck of a start.

If you are simply copying your files from your camera to a folder in My Pictures, you are doing the right thing. Windows Picture and Fax Viewer isn't involved in that process at all. Nor does it do anything to your pictures if you're just looking at them. (rotating is another story, and one that is still up in the air).

Using Bridge is an extra step you really don't need to do. If you just click on "file" and then "open" in Photoshop, you'll be given a window where you can go to My Pictures and see thumbnails of the photos you want to open right from there.. with no danger to your originals whatsoever.

Then, edit them as usual, and click "save as..." when you're done, save under a different file-name.. and presto. Your original remains untouched, and you're ready for another day.

This isn't even as complicated as figuring out how to use Bridge.. (which, IMO, is a horribly bloated and buggy piece of crap.. but I digress ;)).

So there you have it.

It seems to me that too many people are making this into a far bigger issue than it needs to be.. and are getting worried over nothing much at all. A well composed set of questions does a lot of good!
02/20/2007 08:48:02 PM · #75
OK, Admittedly I'm an amateur and don't take a thousand shots a week. But I copy and paste from a card reader (as suggested) and then just leave my challenge shots on the memory card until the challenge is over and I have my 4.XXX to cry over.

Simple enough.

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