Panning - DPChallenge Forums

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

06/07/2002 11:40:11 AM · #5

dm,

i think you'd be the perfect person to write up a 'guideline to rating photos objectively', that we could have on the site for people to read.

what do you say? : )

Originally posted by dmward:
Presuming Panning were to be a challenge, what is the voting criteria? Since panning is a photo technique is the criteria to be limited to technical accomplishment? Or, since as a photographic technique it can be used compositionally i.e. a combination of ambient and flash lighting to make the background streaked with the central subject sharp and "still" the criteria goes beyond technique to esthetic considerations.

It seems to me one reason there is such a wide range of voting for images presented in the challenges is because a) voters have a wide range of experience and expertise in photographic technique. b)voters do not have a common reference for what the challenge intent is and thus are using wildly different criterian for rating an image. c)voters are rating an image purely on a personal reaction just as they do the thousands of images they see everyday in a variety of media. (This plethora of images by "professionals" sets a high hurdle for images submitted to these challenges)

All that said, I think panning is a useful challenge, particularlly when the photographer explains how they approached the subject and why they thought panning was important to make the image successful.

DMW

Kimbly

Canon PowerShot G2

06/07/2002 11:46:36 AM · #6

Wouldn't panning be really difficult for people with a low-end camera who couldn't control aperture/shutter speed to get the right amount of motion in the background?

ClubJuggle

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

Canon EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM

06/07/2002 11:49:24 AM · #7

Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by gr8photos:
[i]Panning is a skill I'd like to be forced to hone. It would also make for a neat challenge, even though I suspect we'd be seeing many racing cars entered.

Oops, did I just predict a cliche? Didn't mean to, my apologies.

I think this would be a fun challenge also... I have actually been practicing this lately and there is an example of it in my outtakes link below.. it was a tossout for the 'people' challenge... Panning with the digital camera is not quite as easy with my sony as it is with my nikon film camera...
[/i]

I played with panning a bit with my entry to the Games challenge. I found that the single most effective thing I could do was to follow the subject from well before I take the picture to well after the shutter closes. This was critical to ensuring a sharp subject.

As for panning as a challenge, my main concern would be that not everyone has a high-end camera that is capable of allowing the user to extend the shutter time. Once we start running multiple challenges per week, I think it would be okay to run challenges that allow us to use the features of the high-end cameras, but at this point, running such a challenge would exclude a lot of users for a week, and I'm not sure that's such a good idea.

-Terry

clay

Kodak DC215

06/07/2002 11:51:30 AM · #8

classic house of lords vs commons. clay can sit on a milk crate with his barbie snapshot camera taking pictures of rat fur. as long as they can have their 256mb cards with their 10x zoom and 38 minute shutters, they dont give a shit.

dmward

Canon EOS-10D

06/07/2002 11:53:17 AM · #9

I don't know about "erfect" person. It does seem that objective or at least categorized criterian creates a level field so that those submitting images and those voting on them are at least on the same planet.

As I've been reviewing what people have said about images as comments, it is curious to me that most are entirely "gut response" type comments, whether positive or negative. The starting place for a guideline is a clearly defined objective. For example, when looking at a painting, one can not use the same criteria for a 17th century Dutch portrait they do for a 20th century impressionist. So, if the site owners are willing to define the challenge with a clear objective, then a guide for objectively critiquing the images submitted is reasonably achievable. On the other hand, when a challenge is obtuse B&W, Panning, etc. establishing a usable guide requires a much broader basis. It is essentially a tutorial on image critiquing. That I am not sure I am the best qualified for. There are books written on the subject and even they offer differing opinions.

DMW

Originally posted by magnetic9999:
dm,

i think you'd be the perfect person to write up a 'guideline to rating photos objectively', that we could have on the site for people to read.

what do you say? : )

Originally posted by dmward:
[i]Presuming Panning were to be a challenge, what is the voting criteria? Since panning is a photo technique is the criteria to be limited to technical accomplishment? Or, since as a photographic technique it can be used compositionally i.e. a combination of ambient and flash lighting to make the background streaked with the central subject sharp and "still" the criteria goes beyond technique to esthetic considerations.

It seems to me one reason there is such a wide range of voting for images presented in the challenges is because a) voters have a wide range of experience and expertise in photographic technique. b)voters do not have a common reference for what the challenge intent is and thus are using wildly different criterian for rating an image. c)voters are rating an image purely on a personal reaction just as they do the thousands of images they see everyday in a variety of media. (This plethora of images by "professionals" sets a high hurdle for images submitted to these challenges)

All that said, I think panning is a useful challenge, particularlly when the photographer explains how they approached the subject and why they thought panning was important to make the image successful.

DMW

[/i]

dmward

Canon EOS-10D

06/07/2002 12:05:07 PM · #10

This is a good point. I agree that a challenge should be defined so that any level digital camera can accomplish the challenge technically. Perhaps the site owners and those suggesting challenges should focus thinking on compositional, and similar challenge topics. For example, self portrait in vertical format that relies on the golden mean for placing the center of interest. A similar challenge, self portrait in vertical format that relies on DoF for placing the center of interest, poses a problem for many digital cameras and would not be a challenge that everyone could into.

I guess my real suggestion is looking for challenges that motivate me to learn about image making and honing my techical capabilities rather than challenges where I am throwing any old image into the field to see what a broad population might thing about it. That's more a gallery situation than a digital photography challenge.

DMW
Originally posted by Kimbly:
Wouldn't panning be really difficult for people with a low-end camera who couldn't control aperture/shutter speed to get the right amount of motion in the background?

Amphian

Nikon Coolpix 880

06/07/2002 12:13:33 PM · #11

Originally posted by clubjuggle:
Once we start running multiple challenges per week

When is this? Or are you hypothesizing?

* This message has been edited by the author on 6/7/2002 1:17:29 PM.

hokie

Nikon D2X

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 17-55mm f/2.8G IF-ED

06/07/2002 12:31:25 PM · #12

Originally posted by clay:
classic house of lords vs commons. clay can sit on a milk crate with his barbie snapshot camera taking pictures of rat fur. as long as they can have their 256mb cards with their 10x zoom and 38 minute shutters, they dont give a shit.

That is a good point and I think we need to keep this in mind when suggesting stuff here.

If the site is to remain accessable to all levels we need to keep the criteria aimed at a reasonable camera equipment level.

I have a pretty good camera but it gets totally outclassed when trying to compete with say...a Nikon DX1 with a $500+ lens for nature photography.

The same can happen when comparing the features of a $300 digicam to a $700 digicam.

Panning is definitely a major advantage to the top 5% of cameras with the right specs.

* This message has been edited by the author on 6/7/2002 12:31:45 PM.

jmsetzler

Sony Alpha a6000

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 E-mount

06/07/2002 12:51:59 PM · #13

Originally posted by Kimbly:
Wouldn't panning be really difficult for people with a low-end camera who couldn't control aperture/shutter speed to get the right amount of motion in the background?

This is a very valid comment... I always use shutter priority when I pan... usually somewhere between 1/80" and 1/30"...

Tamron SP AF 90mm f/2.8 Di for Nikon

06/07/2002 01:20:31 PM · #14

Classic whinge. I worked an extra job for a year to pay for my camera, but anyone with creativity (your strong suit, right?) and a basic understanding of how their camera works can make an action pan. A cigar box with a pinhole would do the trick, or a BarbieDak 215.

Originally posted by clay:
classic house of lords vs commons. clay can sit on a milk crate with his barbie snapshot camera taking pictures of rat fur. as long as they can have their 256mb cards with their 10x zoom and 38 minute shutters, they dont give a shit.

Maverick

Nikon D200

06/07/2002 01:33:20 PM · #15

How exactly do you do a pan focus? My camera has shutter priority...I'm guessing you half press and follow the subject then fully press? Also, higher speed film is often used for action shots right? Does the ISO speed of a digital camera work that way - ie, is a higher ISO better for action or is it just one of my many misconceptions?

Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by Kimbly:
[i]Wouldn't panning be really difficult for people with a low-end camera who couldn't control aperture/shutter speed to get the right amount of motion in the background?

This is a very valid comment... I always use shutter priority when I pan... usually somewhere between 1/80" and 1/30"...
[/i]

06/07/2002 01:45:18 PM · #16

For an action pan, you use a slow shutter speed and follow the subject as it travels along a line perpendicular to the lens. Since the subject doesn''t ''move'' in the frame, it''s sharp, but the background gets a linear motion blur because it ''moved''. Exactly the opposite of a low light shot where the subject is blurred from motion while the chair he''s on is in sharp. Shutter priority makes this easy, especially if there''s lots of light, because the camera will force a smaller aperture to compensate for the slow shutter. The extra depth of field makes focusing much easier.
Without shutter or aperture priority, you can still do it. Just half press the shutter while viewing a shady area at the same distance you anticipate the subject will be. That should lock exposure and focus, so then you start following the subject and trip the shutter the rest of the way. Not as easy as just making the settings, but not rocket science, either.
High ISOs for action are used to increase the usable shutter speed in order to stop motion in weak light.

Originally posted by Maverick:
How exactly do you do a pan focus? My camera has shutter priority...I''m guessing you half press and follow the subject then fully press? Also, higher speed film is often used for action shots right? Does the ISO speed of a digital camera work that way - ie, is a higher ISO better for action or is it just one of my many misconceptions?

* This message has been edited by the author on 6/7/2002 1:47:56 PM.

clay

Kodak DC215

06/07/2002 01:49:42 PM · #17

come up with another reason why you think im just a whiner, irae, this one doesnt pan out

Kimbly

Canon PowerShot G2

06/07/2002 01:52:37 PM · #18

How do you know, though, that the camera won't choose a large aperture and a fast shutter speed, and thus end up with no blurring at all?

I guess you could do it in a pretty dark scene where you'd be pretty certain to have both large aperture and slow shutter speed, but that seems to cut out a lot of subjects. Though I did like that panning one you did for 'ground up' :-)

Originally posted by irae:
Without shutter or aperture priority, you can still do it. Just half press the shutter while viewing a shady area at the same distance you anticipate the subject will be. That should lock exposure and focus, so then you start following the subject and trip the shutter the rest of the way. Not as easy as just making the settings, but not rocket science, either.

06/07/2002 01:53:55 PM · #19

"pan out"... hyoik hyoik {snort}... that's funny!

jonathans

Canon PowerShot S200

06/07/2002 02:16:01 PM · #20

stop making immigration look like a curse

06/07/2002 02:17:01 PM · #21

Originally posted by Kimbly:
How do you know, though, that the camera won't choose a large aperture and a fast shutter speed, and thus end up with no blurring at all?

It will open up the aperture first, so you need to pick a spot with low enough light that the camera runs out of aperture and starts reducing shutter. A dark subject in the shade ought to do it.

I guess you could do it in a pretty dark scene where you'd be pretty certain to have both large aperture and slow shutter speed, but that seems to cut out a lot of subjects.

As long as you told the camera "we're shooting in the dark now" by locking exposure on the dark scene, you coud actually have the subject in brighter light - just hold a polarizer or neutral density filter over the lens (once exposure is locked) to keep from overexposing. I hear a sunglass lens works, too. Clunky for sure, but it's available to anyone who wants to make action pans.

Though I did like that panning one you did for 'ground up' :-)

Thanks. That makes you, me and about five other people. {g}

Originally posted by irae:
Without shutter or aperture priority, you can still do it. Just half press the shutter while viewing a shady area at the same distance you anticipate the subject will be. That should lock exposure and focus, so then you start following the subject and trip the shutter the rest of the way. Not as easy as just making the settings, but not rocket science, either.[/i]

06/07/2002 02:19:48 PM · #22

stop making the 'natives' look like loudmouthed cretins

clay

Kodak DC215

06/07/2002 02:24:47 PM · #23

cretin hop

06/07/2002 02:28:38 PM · #24

Poor Dee Dee...

magnetic9999