DPChallenge: A Digital Photography Contest You are not logged in. (log in or register
 

DPChallenge Forums >> Photography Discussion >> There is no DNMC!
Pages:  
Showing posts 1 - 25 of 145, (reverse)
AuthorThread
10/27/2011 01:34:45 PM · #1
I’ve been dropping in and out of DPC for nearly seven years now.

So many glib comments of, ‘DNMC’ or, ‘Sorry, I don’t see the connection’.

So many threads about, ‘Would it still be Candid if the person glanced at me?’ or, ‘Is it still a Still Life if the dead fish is still breathing a little?’

To pronounce someone else’s photograph as DNMC is absurd and presumptuous. An inexcusable, myopic vanity. How can you know what was in the photographer’s mind? It’s impossible.

Vote the image on its merits as you see them by all means, but do not presume to conclude that your inability to see the connection with the challenge theme is automatically an indictment of the photographer. It’s much more likely an indictment of you.

When you see an image that doesn’t fit with your personal view of the challenge, don’t dismiss it. Instead embrace it; it’s probably a rare and precious opportunity to expand your horizons. Then, if still takes you nowhere, give the thing a 3 vote with a clear conscience: you don’t see the connection (though that doesn’t mean there is none). But just don’t say ‘DNMC’. Your opinion about that is subjective, and ultimately irrelevant, as well as almost certainly insulting.
10/27/2011 01:38:01 PM · #2
Originally posted by ubique:

I’ve been dropping in and out of DPC for nearly seven years now.

So many glib comments of, ‘DNMC’ or, ‘Sorry, I don’t see the connection’.

So many threads about, ‘Would it still be Candid if the person glanced at me?’ or, ‘Is it still a Still Life if the dead fish is still breathing a little?’

To pronounce someone else’s photograph as DNMC is absurd and presumptuous. An inexcusable, myopic vanity. How can you know what was in the photographer’s mind? It’s impossible.

Vote the image on its merits as you see them by all means, but do not presume to conclude that your inability to see the connection with the challenge theme is automatically an indictment of the photographer. It’s much more likely an indictment of you.

When you see an image that doesn’t fit with your personal view of the challenge, don’t dismiss it. Instead embrace it; it’s probably a rare and precious opportunity to expand your horizons. Then, if still takes you nowhere, give the thing a 3 vote with a clear conscience: you don’t see the connection (though that doesn’t mean there is none). But just don’t say ‘DNMC’. Your opinion about that is subjective, and ultimately irrelevant, as well as almost certainly insulting.


+1

Where's that damn like button!?
10/27/2011 01:47:53 PM · #3
Yes. I have always wondered about the DNMC comment. Is it plunked down with some satisfaction, smugness, or is it merely picking up some chorus like 'kill the pig'?

My problem is not so much with the DNMC comment but with the "I am sorry..." Please don't be sorry if you cannot respond applaudingly to my photo. That is more sorrow than I am willing to contemplate.

10/27/2011 01:50:19 PM · #4
I highly disagree. We are not voting on what the photographer saw, we are voting on what we see. As voters, we have every right in the world to not see an intended connection, and vote down because of that.

Maybe there is a language/cultural barrier that makes it difficult to see.

Maybe it's a bad pun or an inside joke that the voter doesn't understand.

Maybe it's a blue flower in a red car challenge.

A comment of "DMNC" is a valuable comment, and I embrace them whenever I get them. IT tells me that there are other perfectly valid opinions out there than mine.
10/27/2011 01:54:17 PM · #5
Originally posted by giantmike:

I highly disagree. We are not voting on what the photographer saw, we are voting on what we see. As voters, we have every right in the world to not see an intended connection, and vote down because of that.

Maybe there is a language/cultural barrier that makes it difficult to see.

Maybe it's a bad pun or an inside joke that the voter doesn't understand.

Maybe it's a blue flower in a red car challenge.

A comment of "DMNC" is a valuable comment, and I embrace them whenever I get them. IT tells me that there are other perfectly valid opinions out there than mine.


I agree. If the viewer doesn't understand the connection my image has with the challenge topic he has every right to tell me. In fact, I'd prefer it to just a low vote.

eta: I'd also like to point out that sometimes there are kinder ways of pointing out a DNMC image. For example check out this image that I um...put into the wrong challenge. DNMC? Yup. But that four letter sequence doesn't feature in the comments



Message edited by author 2011-10-27 13:57:02.
10/27/2011 01:57:13 PM · #6
Originally posted by giantmike:

I highly disagree. We are not voting on what the photographer saw, we are voting on what we see. As voters, we have every right in the world to not see an intended connection, and vote down because of that.

Maybe there is a language/cultural barrier that makes it difficult to see.

Maybe it's a bad pun or an inside joke that the voter doesn't understand.

Maybe it's a blue flower in a red car challenge.

A comment of "DMNC" is a valuable comment, and I embrace them whenever I get them. IT tells me that there are other perfectly valid opinions out there than mine.


+1
If the viewer misses the connection, it is due to our failure to communicate it clearly to them. I don't at all mind a few DNMC comments on entries where I know that I am asking the viewer to think about the connection. I know some won't or some will miss it. If I get a ton of DNMCs I know I have asked too much, and that is my failing, not theirs.

10/27/2011 02:03:28 PM · #7
Thank you, Paul! Indeed, the Constitution of Candid Photography floating around in another thread is beyond ridiculous.
10/27/2011 02:04:32 PM · #8
Not understanding the connection to the challenge is a failure of communication. No matter if the failure lies in the photographer's inability to convey their concept, or the viewer's inability to grasp the connection, the challenge has not been met, so points should be deducted.
However if it is a pleasing image, technically sound and well rendered, and there is some possible connection to the challenge, no matter how tangential, I do not understand how a voter can give votes below a 5. If the voter fails to see the connection to the challenge, there is still a photograph to judge.
10/27/2011 02:06:33 PM · #9
Originally posted by ubique:

I’ve been dropping in and out of DPC for nearly seven years now.

So many glib comments of, ‘DNMC’ or, ‘Sorry, I don’t see the connection’.

So many threads about, ‘Would it still be Candid if the person glanced at me?’ or, ‘Is it still a Still Life if the dead fish is still breathing a little?’

To pronounce someone else’s photograph as DNMC is absurd and presumptuous. An inexcusable, myopic vanity. How can you know what was in the photographer’s mind? It’s impossible.

Vote the image on its merits as you see them by all means, but do not presume to conclude that your inability to see the connection with the challenge theme is automatically an indictment of the photographer. It’s much more likely an indictment of you.

When you see an image that doesn’t fit with your personal view of the challenge, don’t dismiss it. Instead embrace it; it’s probably a rare and precious opportunity to expand your horizons. Then, if still takes you nowhere, give the thing a 3 vote with a clear conscience: you don’t see the connection (though that doesn’t mean there is none). But just don’t say ‘DNMC’. Your opinion about that is subjective, and ultimately irrelevant, as well as almost certainly insulting.


I think it is even more presumptuous, inexcusable and myopically vain to assume that everyone who gives a "DNMC" comment does so without first thinking about it.
10/27/2011 02:23:14 PM · #10
Originally posted by ubique:

‘Is it still a Still Life if the dead fish is still breathing a little?’


I'm sad today...so thank you so much, Paul, for this laugh! ;-)

Originally posted by ubique:

When you see an image that doesn’t fit with your personal view of the challenge, don’t dismiss it. Instead embrace it; it’s probably a rare and precious opportunity to expand your horizons.


More importantly, thank you for this piece of wisdom.
10/27/2011 02:24:34 PM · #11
I don't know how many years it's been since I posted this, to no avail:

On (Challenge) Topicality

Limiting potentially immeasurable choices to a defined subject or a chosen category of photography, really, should stimulate creativity, not hamper it. Topics, IMO, are or should be there for the benefit of the photographer, not for the untaxed glee of some voters swinging a bat.

I do not penalize entries for failing to meet the challenge. I may award a higher score to a unique interpretation or to a finesse I recognize, but I cannot, in good conscience, penalize something or someone for a fault that may lie within me and not with a picture.

I have seen and continue to see perfectly good photographs here penalized for exceeding the appreciative capacity of voters to recognize an entry for the poignant topicality it may demonstrate. If I consider the photo remarkable (artistically interesting), I may just decide to award the highest mark possible in the faint hope to compensate for a predictably overall devaluation.
10/27/2011 02:29:27 PM · #12
Originally posted by zeuszen:

untaxed glee


Wonderful use of language. I love the way you write! Every word the right one.
10/27/2011 02:29:32 PM · #13
a "dpchallenge" has three variable components:

1. an image
2. a title
3. a topic

in my endless search for beauty and thrills, I therefore have six opportunities for sizzle:

from #1 by itself
from the interaction of #1 with #2
from the interaction of #1 with #3
from the interaction of #1 with #2 and #3
from the interaction of #1 and #2 with #3
from the interaction of #1 and #3 with #2

In other words, it's not about *meeting* the challenge, it's about *interacting* with the challenge. Meetings are dull. Interactions are fascinating.
10/27/2011 02:31:02 PM · #14
The caliber of the photograph is much more important than how "perfectly" the presentation meets the challenge. I score excellent photographs ... which may have only tangential association with the challenge ... much, much higher than I score poor photographs with a super match to challenge. That's my scoring style and my prerogative. This site is, after all, a photography competition, or, at least it used to be.

The most critical, unthinking comments come from the least talented photographers. I think some beginning photographers like to elevate their own feeling of self worth by knocking down others. It's pretty interesting to check the portfolios of those who make the "not constructive" comments. I mark almost all comments helpful, because it's the culture here. And, there will be vote retaliation if one does not comply with the expectation to mark everything "helpful". I don't think blanket checking of comments helps anyone develop critique skills, but evidently, this site wishes to see quantity of comments, rather than quality.

I don't care about scores. I'll never excel at the 800 pixel Internet display. I understand this. My complaint is about the voter who casts a DNMC vote on an image which clearly meets the challenge, but doesn't meet that voter's much narrower definition of the challenge. That small minded, myopic approach is ass-backwards and hurts the quality of the competition.
10/27/2011 02:33:33 PM · #15
I was hired to do some family portraits in a client's back yard. I spent the time ignoring the family, and photographing a butterfly in their garden instead.

When I gave them the prints of the butterfly, they refused to pay.

Absurd and presumptuous. An inexcusable, myopic vanity.
10/27/2011 02:34:13 PM · #16
Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by giantmike:

I highly disagree. We are not voting on what the photographer saw, we are voting on what we see. As voters, we have every right in the world to not see an intended connection, and vote down because of that.

Maybe there is a language/cultural barrier that makes it difficult to see.

Maybe it's a bad pun or an inside joke that the voter doesn't understand.

Maybe it's a blue flower in a red car challenge.

A comment of "DMNC" is a valuable comment, and I embrace them whenever I get them. IT tells me that there are other perfectly valid opinions out there than mine.


+1
If the viewer misses the connection, it is due to our failure to communicate it clearly to them. I don't at all mind a few DNMC comments on entries where I know that I am asking the viewer to think about the connection. I know some won't or some will miss it. If I get a ton of DNMCs I know I have asked too much, and that is my failing, not theirs.


Another +1 - You are not the voter's customer. The voter is your customer. The challenge topic is the product the voter is buying. The voter will respond to how well you meet their expectations. If you don't want to deal with DNMC, only enter the Free Studies.

Tim
10/27/2011 02:35:37 PM · #17
There is of course more going on here. Frequently (I believe) DNMC is code for:

"You've opted out, what you've done is something easier than was intended by the brief. I put myself out to play by the rules - you didn't. Your image offends me because I perceive you have tried to take a short cut. You are like the driver cutting in just before the lane closes off. I will punish you with my score, just as I keep close to the car ahead"

I don't for a minute take this view myself but believe that this is the root of some DNMC angst.
10/27/2011 02:36:15 PM · #18
Originally posted by atupdate:

Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by giantmike:

I highly disagree. We are not voting on what the photographer saw, we are voting on what we see. As voters, we have every right in the world to not see an intended connection, and vote down because of that.

Maybe there is a language/cultural barrier that makes it difficult to see.

Maybe it's a bad pun or an inside joke that the voter doesn't understand.

Maybe it's a blue flower in a red car challenge.

A comment of "DMNC" is a valuable comment, and I embrace them whenever I get them. IT tells me that there are other perfectly valid opinions out there than mine.


+1
If the viewer misses the connection, it is due to our failure to communicate it clearly to them. I don't at all mind a few DNMC comments on entries where I know that I am asking the viewer to think about the connection. I know some won't or some will miss it. If I get a ton of DNMCs I know I have asked too much, and that is my failing, not theirs.


Another +1 - You are not the voter's customer. The voter is your customer. The challenge topic is the product the voter is buying. The voter will respond to how well you meet their expectations. If you don't want to deal with DNMC, only enter the Free Studies.

Tim


I've seen them passed out there too.

Now, pass the popcorn.
10/27/2011 02:37:40 PM · #19
People giving low votes for not meeting the challenge is a reaction to other people who just throw a picture into the challenge, even if they know it does not suit spirit of the topic. ("Heck, whose going to really know I don't live 47 steps from a fantastic coastal landscape?") I've seen many of them score quite well and post-challenge, I read in the photographer notes that they knew it was not in the spirit of the topic. To call the kettle black, I even have a ribbon of my own on one that I felt was a stretch for the topic.

Yes, there is such a thing as DNMC, but it is different for every person. What I have been encouraged to do by this thread is to still vote as I deem appropriate, but no longer leave a comment explaining that vote. Someone can now start the thread complaining about low voting without comments to explain it.

10/27/2011 02:38:31 PM · #20
Yawwwwn. How about let voters vote the way they see fit and you (collective you) present images the way you see fit and let the chips fall where they may. If the topic is irrelevant to you, stick with just entering free studies. Think of the irony of calling people out as "myopically vain" because they don't agree with your opinion on the importance of the topic relevance.
10/27/2011 02:40:29 PM · #21
Yes (to Don). I was going to say something about reverberations. A photo in an unfree challenge has an opportunity to tap into specific harmonies... So a challenge topic provides some kind of parameter, or even a nudge to orient our seeing; in this way it can be an aid to understanding/seeing; rather different than a guide to judgement.
10/27/2011 02:42:22 PM · #22
Originally posted by ubique:

When you see an image that doesn’t fit with your personal view of the challenge, don’t dismiss it. Instead embrace it; it’s probably a rare and precious opportunity to expand your horizons.

Sadly, I think many people here have a problem with this idea. It's a DNMC for DPC.
10/27/2011 02:47:23 PM · #23
Originally posted by hahn23:

It's pretty interesting to check the portfolios of those who make the "not constructive" comments.

Well, my Grog's freestudy commenting is not exactly helpful in a strict definition of the term. I wonder what my portfolio says?

A more serious respoinse to what you said, Richard: I think what is causing this is that the less experienced and newer members often do heavier commenting because it is a learning exercise for them. It then seems they are passing judgement when they can't even do as well themselves. I try to keep that in mind.
10/27/2011 02:48:29 PM · #24
Originally posted by atupdate:

... If you don't want to deal with DNMC, only enter the Free Studies.

Tim

The declining participation is, in part, due to what you suggest. I've only been here for about 500 challenges, so what do I know? I think I've seen the change happen in the past few months. Petty votes are being cast on some very good images (exclude mine from this analysis) which do meet the challenge by almost anyone's definition. I think there are reasons for this kind of cutthroat behavior which I am very hesitant to say. Bottom line... it is reducing participation, as you suggest. So, will the trend be allowed to go beyond the point of no return? I think so.
10/27/2011 02:49:51 PM · #25
If the challenge description clearly states something which must be in the photograph, I don't get why people try to 'work outside the box' and do something that doesn't fit the details (then moan about it when they rank low!) There are plenty of challenge which offer less specific details and have room for creative thinking, for example a challenge entitled 'hope'; that means different things to different people, so there could be a wide variety of shots, none of which really don't fit the challenge. If the challenge is called 'yellow' for which the description says 'your photograph must be in colour and feature something yellow' and someone submits a black and white image, then that's clearly a DNMC. Or another example, a challenge called 'male' for which the subject must be a human male and someone posts a picture of a pint of beer because they think it 'personifies' men, that's a clear DNMC too. Things like that can't possibly be open to individual interpretation.

Pages:  
Current Server Time: 03/28/2024 08:42:44 AM

Please log in or register to post to the forums.


Home - Challenges - Community - League - Photos - Cameras - Lenses - Learn - Prints! - Help - Terms of Use - Privacy - Top ^
DPChallenge, and website content and design, Copyright © 2001-2024 Challenging Technologies, LLC.
All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission.
Current Server Time: 03/28/2024 08:42:44 AM EDT.