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01/30/2013 04:09:15 PM · #1
New Year, new times, new thinking.

For me (and others too I'm sure) DPC has got a little frustrating. I'm not referring to the site functionality but the cycle I feel the community has got into in relation to the type of shots that are rewarded with high scores and how those scores attract more images just like those. Of course many will think that is just fine, but from time to time I think we get a Front Page that doesn't really do the community justice. Today for example, there are a bunch of images up there that are perfectly fine as legitimate, competent and fun responses to a challenge theme but I'm just not sure they offer a good representation of photography as an art form or indeed the talent of our community here. I'm not bashing those on the front page, they are highly talented photographers and most, if not all, will have positive comments from me (and you) on images in their portfolio - and after all, they are on the Front Page because they have done exactly as we have expected them to do in relation to meeting our expectations of a winning image. There's a skill right there.

In a few comments' time I'll be giving out my 4000th comment - not very many compared to lots of people, but my word count is probably pretty respectable; anyway - every 1000 comments I go to a portfolio of a photographer who has inspired me, I find an uncommented-on image and I leave a long one by way of saying 'thanks for images'. I've therefore been in reflective mood recently and I've decided that I'm going to change the way that I participate in DPC (or at least try to!). These are the changes I'm going to make:

1. No more 'Longer Look' comments on Free Studies - it has already moved away from its initial intent and I am acknowledging that with a new award, the structure of the comment might change too as it's been fairly rigid until now. Also, the new award will be better aligned with my thinking in Point 2 below.

2. No more votes of 5 or 6 from me. It will either be an image that I think enriches the DPC community portfolio or it doesn't. If I feel an image offer something 'enriching' then the minimum it will get is a 7. If an image is technically perfect, artistically constructed but (in my view) isn't 'enriching' then the most it will get from me is a 4.

3. My own shooting. I'm as guilty as ribbon chasing as the next person - both the regular ribbons and the PH bling. I'm going to try to stop. I'm going to try to enter images that I think are 'enriching'.

I have no idea what 'enriching' means or looks like. I'm hoping I'll know it when I see it and that my 'no 5 or 6' rule will help me.

Of course - there are already lots of people who have led the way in modifying their voting, have a particular mission they are following and are trying to rebel against the self-fulling cycle that leads us to the lowest common denominator and they/we all know that they/we don't really make an impact on the grand scheme of things. That's fine, that's to be expected, but nonetheless I'm going to start shooting and voting a bit differently and I'm hoping to become re-inspired by the people whose work I had previously singled out for my 1000th, 2000th and 3000th comments.

I hope that doesn't seem too much of a self-indulgent post; I'm just sharing some thinking and with two Free Studies coming up I thought I should explain in advance the difference in the award I'll give out and the rationale for the change.

Apologies for the long post.

Cheers

Paul
01/30/2013 04:13:47 PM · #2
Originally posted by Paul:

1. No more 'Longer Look' comments on Free Studies - it has already moved away from its initial intent and I am acknowledging that with a new award, the structure of the comment might change too as it's been fairly rigid until now. Also, the new award will be better aligned with my thinking in Point 2 below.
My reason for entering challenges has just been squashed. I got a longer look comment on this image. Ever since I was trying to get one in another challenge, only to realize you did it for free studies only.

edit - I should add I've read a good portion of your longer look comments because both the comment, and the image accompanying the comment were often quite insightful and a pleasure to look at.

Who's going to vet the entries now? You mean I have to look through all them?

Message edited by author 2013-01-30 16:17:24.
01/30/2013 04:18:30 PM · #3
Thanks for sharing that. I've always valued your longer look comments. I have a number of with-the-pack entries that I consider total successes because of receiving comments such as yours. Your thoughts on what does and does not make the front page also helps when I am pulling one of those with-the-pack scores on a shot that enthuses me.

Mass appeal is a funny thing. I can't bring myself to give a middling or low score to a technically good shot, even if I have seen similar many times before. Sounds like you are reevaluating that approach as well.
01/30/2013 04:19:56 PM · #4
whatever the new award is, i'm sure it will be a great gift to our community.

as i've told you before paul, it was one of your longer look comments i received years ago that sealed the deal for me here, kept me entering, and kept me shooting.
01/30/2013 04:22:00 PM · #5
I only ever got one of your long comments. I guess I am one of the guilty ones however, sometimes chasing the ribbons made me branch off and try new things. So it is not all that bad but I wish there were other ways of recognizing individual efforts here than popular scores, PHs and comments. Maybe juried thematic challenges would inspire some better photography. I don't know. TPL is a great way to build up the community and inprovement for the newbies but it may not be promoting the most inspiring photography. Maybe we need more ideas for that.
01/30/2013 04:22:47 PM · #6
I'll miss the Longer Look comments (those alone were as good as a Posthumous Ribbon for me). But any feedback I get from you automatically gets a "longer look" from me, so nothing lost, as far as I'm concerned, so long as you're still participating and commenting.

I've taken to even number voting recently, which I found works better for me. A smaller scale means I can think less about score (is this a seven or an eight?) and put more time into commenting. It also means no more middle-of-the-road five comments, no ones (I've ever handed one out anyway), and, actually, more tens.

01/30/2013 04:23:27 PM · #7
Originally posted by Paul:

2. No more votes of 5 or 6 from me. It will either be an image that I think enriches the DPC community portfolio or it doesn't. If I feel an image offer something 'enriching' then the minimum it will get is a 7. If an image is technically perfect, artistically constructed but (in my view) isn't 'enriching' then the most it will get from me is a 4.
I wouldn't admit this out loud. You edit your original comment, remind me to edit this one also.
01/30/2013 04:23:52 PM · #8
Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by Paul:

1. No more 'Longer Look' comments on Free Studies - it has already moved away from its initial intent and I am acknowledging that with a new award, the structure of the comment might change too as it's been fairly rigid until now. Also, the new award will be better aligned with my thinking in Point 2 below.
My reason for entering challenges has just been squashed. I got a longer look comment on this image. I was trying to get more in every challenge, only to realize you did it for free studies only.

edit - I should add I've read a good portion of your longer look comments because both the comment, and the image accompanying the comment were often quite insightful and a pleasure to look at.

Who's going to vet the entries now? You mean I have to look through all them?


I'm still doing a similar thing in Free Studies - 100% voting, look at all the images - comment on the ones that stand out.... but: different comment structure (still long).

Originally, the award was conceived because one photographer who I admire greatly said that they had received no comments on their image and that it wasn't fair that the slightly obtuse images, the ones that were superficially without mass appeal, were getting neglected. I tried to start seeking them out and spend much longer picking over them. I learnt a lot and found that I really enjoyed them with enough time. Over the time I've been doing it, I've moved away from that pure aim and now acknowledge those that appeal to me. In many ways, I'm just going to be transparent about that. My new voting scheme is all new for me now and it may force me to assess images quite differently. I definitely won't be commenting on the 1-4s and I'll see whether commenting on all the 7-10s is viable.

[Edited for typos]

Message edited by author 2013-01-30 16:27:19.
01/30/2013 04:26:20 PM · #9
Originally posted by bvy:

I'll miss the Longer Look comments (those alone were as good as a Posthumous Ribbon for me). But any feedback I get from you automatically gets a "longer look" from me, so nothing lost, as far as I'm concerned, so long as you're still participating and commenting.

I've taken to even number voting recently, which I found works better for me. A smaller scale means I can think less about score (is this a seven or an eight?) and put more time into commenting. It also means no more middle-of-the-road five comments, no ones (I've ever handed one out anyway), and, actually, more tens.


I noticed your new scoring system Brian - it's one of the things that got me thinking!
01/30/2013 04:30:22 PM · #10
Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by Paul:

2. No more votes of 5 or 6 from me. It will either be an image that I think enriches the DPC community portfolio or it doesn't. If I feel an image offer something 'enriching' then the minimum it will get is a 7. If an image is technically perfect, artistically constructed but (in my view) isn't 'enriching' then the most it will get from me is a 4.
I wouldn't admit this out loud. You edit your original comment, remind me to edit this one also.

too late
01/30/2013 04:41:37 PM · #11
I love the ‘Eye’ you awarded me once Paul (and is proudly displayed on my Profile Page) and have always appreciated the comments from you. I hope to get more in the future as well. I appreciate you taking the time to explain your new approach to commenting and voting. It makes a lot of sense and has got me thinking about how I have been voting lately.
01/30/2013 04:41:44 PM · #12
Originally posted by h2:

Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by Paul:

2. No more votes of 5 or 6 from me. It will either be an image that I think enriches the DPC community portfolio or it doesn't. If I feel an image offer something 'enriching' then the minimum it will get is a 7. If an image is technically perfect, artistically constructed but (in my view) isn't 'enriching' then the most it will get from me is a 4.
I wouldn't admit this out loud. You edit your original comment, remind me to edit this one also.

too late


I only just understood what this meant. I don't mind one bit people knowing that I'm giving technically good photos that are artistically constructed a maximum score of 4 - it's in a wider context (no 5s or 6s). I still think there will be plenty of technically good, artistically well constructed images that also 'enrich' the community portfolio and they'll get 7+.

Message edited by author 2013-01-30 16:42:19.
01/30/2013 04:43:50 PM · #13
I received one of your comments and I still go back time and again to read it.
I was flattered when I got it and it inspired me to comment more.
Thanks again and good luck on your new voting system.
01/30/2013 04:49:42 PM · #14
I was so afraid you were leaving....

Now I am moved to pull up my socks and stop entering the albeit rare-for-me pretty picture. I will wait until I get that slightly wicked frisson that makes photography electric.

Thank you for staying.
01/30/2013 04:52:27 PM · #15
Sigh! There goes my score. The 5's drop to 4's and the 3's drop to 2's...

Each voter is unique. Each voter is unique. Each voter is unique. Just keep repeating...
:-p
01/30/2013 04:58:19 PM · #16
Perhaps we should skip the Free Study for a while, so you can enter your best photo in another challenge here. Just a though in the late evening :)
01/30/2013 07:10:13 PM · #17
Paul, you are a gentleman. I love your longer look comments but I trust this will be better.. for you and for us. Thank you.
01/30/2013 07:25:34 PM · #18
Originally posted by MNet:

Maybe juried thematic challenges would inspire some better photography. I don't know.


...I guess that would depend on who the juries are, and what they consider to be better photography.

There are as you know, some very artful individuals on this site whose avant-garde approach might not meet the expectations of either the masses of the great unwashed, or those who consider themselves connoisseurs of fine photography.

But, I am game to learn from the esteemed jurors. :O)

Ray
01/30/2013 07:47:42 PM · #19
I don't mind one bit people knowing that I'm giving technically good photos that are artistically constructed a maximum score of 4 - it's in a wider context (no 5s or 6s)

I actually wish you would give comments on those photos that you give 4s. I've often wondered about the 4s and 5s on nature shots that I find impressive, difficult captures. Are they 4s and 5s simply because a nature shot is rarely artistic, and mostly just another bird? I often feel that way about portraits. Nicely done, but not much soul. But then it seems like portraits can't seem to make it unless the model is beautiful or fascinatingly interesting. For those of us who would rather be jagar or tanguera comments on our 4s would probably be very useful... :)
01/30/2013 07:54:44 PM · #20
Not wanting to hijack this thread but I couldn't help but notice that hajeka looks exactly like a well known media figure Johnathan Holmes here in Australia.



Your profile shot caused me to have a longer look :-)

Back on topic. Even if I don't get a comment from Paul this FS I will be wanting to read his comments on the entries he likes as they usually offer an insight that I often miss.
01/30/2013 07:58:25 PM · #21
As a recipient of a few "Longer Look" comments, I know I will miss them. And I thank you for doing that in the first place! Made entering several "eh" scoring shots all that much more satisfying. And in fact, may propel me to actually enter the "Best of" thing going on, even though I have nothing that will break a 6.
01/30/2013 08:02:24 PM · #22
I don't really give a hoot about how you structure your comments or how you score the images. I'm just happy you're back :-)
01/30/2013 09:13:07 PM · #23
I'll second that. I know what you mean Paul, things have gone very pc and homogeneous. The turbulent days of ubique have eased, his in depth critique backed with an artist perspective and articulation cut the mustard, as does yours (and many, many others here). Robust critique seems to be in decline as to keep the peace or just not enough time. It reminds me of those little creatures of the year Eight Hundred and Two Thousand in H.G. Wells' The Time Machine ;) Thanks for sharing, and I know that if you have a 4 for me I deserve it but I'll never know it was you.

Message edited by author 2013-01-30 21:15:23.
01/30/2013 09:13:44 PM · #24
Originally posted by Paul:

New Year, new times, new thinking.

For me (and others too I'm sure) DPC has got a little frustrating. I'm not referring to the site functionality but the cycle I feel the community has got into in relation to the type of shots that are rewarded with high scores and how those scores attract more images just like those. Of course many will think that is just fine, but from time to time I think we get a Front Page that doesn't really do the community justice. Today for example, there are a bunch of images up there that are perfectly fine as legitimate, competent and fun responses to a challenge theme but I'm just not sure they offer a good representation of photography as an art form or indeed the talent of our community here. I'm not bashing those on the front page, they are highly talented photographers and most, if not all, will have positive comments from me (and you) on images in their portfolio - and after all, they are on the Front Page because they have done exactly as we have expected them to do in relation to meeting our expectations of a winning image. There's a skill right there.

Paul


The highlighting is mine.
This is one of the best thing I read here in a long time.
Great idea about the way you'll score Paul.

01/30/2013 09:32:49 PM · #25
Thank you Paul. Very constructive, and I always enjoy your thoughtful comments. Often ones I may not have looked at long enough.
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