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DPChallenge Forums >> Administrator Announcements >> Slight Change to the Expert Editing Rules Regarding Borders
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08/05/2014 02:49:35 PM · #1
One of your SC members pointed out to the rest of us that if we followed the rules literally a DQ was mandated for the following image:



Why? It's an unintended consequence of copying the border rule over from Advanced to Expert without changing it: the current advanced border rule was designed to SPECIFICALLY prohibit turning a single image into a triptych, and therefore borders are defined as going around the "outside edge" only. But there's consensus among SC that it would be ridiculous to prohibit triptych-making like this very fine image under the expert rules.

Accordingly, we are going to let this potential DQ slide, and we have changed the wording on the border rule in Expert Editing from "You may add a border to the outside edge of your entry." to: "You may add a border to your entry."

Message edited by author 2014-08-05 14:49:58.
08/05/2014 03:10:48 PM · #2
Am I understanding this right. You changed the rules AFTER an image should have been DQ'ed to allow it to be legal?
08/05/2014 03:14:03 PM · #3
It may be my lack of knowledge of the English language, but I don't understand how a clause that starts with "You may ..." can disallow anything that is otherwise allowed.
08/05/2014 03:21:47 PM · #4
I wouldn't count it as a border - it is translucent, it is a new image area created by overlaying an adjustment layer. I'd have thought that was legal in Expert without a rule amendment.

(I applaud the flexibility though - it would be strange for a change in law to not to include the case which caused the change. I presume there haven't been any DQs by that route before.)
08/05/2014 03:23:13 PM · #5
With all that can be done in Expert editing, we would have been vilified for a DQ here. This particular issue had never come up before, so there was no precedent of others who had been treated differently and we opted to correct what was essentially a typo in the rules.
08/05/2014 03:23:55 PM · #6
Originally posted by MattO:

Am I understanding this right. You changed the rules AFTER an image should have been DQ'ed to allow it to be legal?


Yes, you understood that right, if I understood it correctly.

Or rather, they voted that it should not be DQ'd due to the fact that the DQ offense was a subtle nuance that was never intended to be applied against an image like the one in question, and then fixed the ruleset to be more clearly worded.

I don't see a problem with any of that - do you?
08/05/2014 03:24:05 PM · #7
Originally posted by MattO:

Am I understanding this right. You changed the rules AFTER an image should have been DQ'ed to allow it to be legal?


Well, it depends upon how you interpret what the rule was. The Advanced border rule that got copied to Expert read that you "may add a border to the outside" of your entry. Advanced rules also stipulate that you "may not use ANY editing tool to move, remove or duplicate any element of your photograph that would change a typical viewer's description of the photograph". The second stipulation is not in the Expert rules, so while the rules said that you could add a border to the outside, they also didn't say that you couldn't add it to the inside.

I think the SC made the correct call in interpreting the rules, and simply corrected the wording to make it more clear.
08/05/2014 03:29:34 PM · #8
I'm with Mita. The language was open-ended. No dq threat. It makes no sense to be allowed to literally draw any other shape on your image, but not a straight line to visually divide the image. Besides, haven't diptychs and triptychs been entered in other expert editing challenges that didn't specifically call for that format?

08/05/2014 03:34:28 PM · #9
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by MattO:

Am I understanding this right. You changed the rules AFTER an image should have been DQ'ed to allow it to be legal?


Yes, you understood that right, if I understood it correctly.

Or rather, they voted that it should not be DQ'd due to the fact that the DQ offense was a subtle nuance that was never intended to be applied against an image like the one in question, and then fixed the ruleset to be more clearly worded.

I don't see a problem with any of that - do you?


The only problem I have with it besides the explanation seemed confusing to me, is where Bear says you know if we follow the rule as it's written this is a DQ. So if you don't follow the rule as it's written, then it's a DQ in any other instance, whether it was intended to be applied against an image or not.
08/05/2014 03:41:36 PM · #10
Originally posted by skewsme:

Besides, haven't diptychs and triptychs been entered in other expert editing challenges that didn't specifically call for that format?

I don't know for sure, but I do know that nobody's ever been DQ'd in expert for bordering his/her work into a diptych or Triptych, and we don't think anyone ever SHOULD be. So we didn't do it this time and we fixed the rule so it will never be an issue again.
08/05/2014 03:42:08 PM · #11
Respectfully, I'd say that the bizarre way this topic was brought up isn't doing it any good. It would probably be less confusing as a formal announcement of a minor change to the wording of the rule, with an accompanying explanation of the nuance you discovered. Because I'm pretty sure we do all appreciate this thoughtful and rational interpretation of the rule in question. So thanks for that.
08/05/2014 03:45:44 PM · #12
Originally posted by skewsme:

Respectfully, I'd say that the bizarre way this topic was brought up isn't doing it any good. It would probably be less confusing as a formal announcement of a minor change to the wording of the rule, with an accompanying explanation of the nuance you discovered. Because I'm pretty sure we do all appreciate this thoughtful and rational interpretation of the rule in question. So thanks for that.

Alright, I've done that. But didn't I explain it adequately in the first post?
08/05/2014 03:49:35 PM · #13
Originally posted by skewsme:

It would probably be less confusing as a formal announcement of a minor change to the wording of the rule, with an accompanying explanation of the nuance you discovered.

Originally posted by Paul:

I'd have thought that was legal in Expert without a rule amendment.

I suspect nearly everyone thought this was already legal (or should be) in Expert, so this wasn't really a change worthy of an official announcement. Just having a little fun with the FYI after a small string of regular DQs.
08/05/2014 03:58:22 PM · #14
Judging from the initial confusions, maybe the point wasn't totally clear. Also not everyone feels jokey about threatened dq's. I hope the new thread title will spare you additional grief :)
08/05/2014 04:21:10 PM · #15
Originally posted by scalvert:

Just having a little fun with the FYI after a small string of regular DQs.


I'm glad to be of some assistance. :)

In my defense, I was drunk...
08/05/2014 09:21:58 PM · #16
I like the idea of clarification, and I think this should be legal.

But..

A border goes around something - it doesn't segment it. If you want to allow diptych or triptych treatments, you should say so. Otherwise, what's to stop someone from creating a simulated net or fence with "borders"?


08/05/2014 09:37:49 PM · #17
Originally posted by Nobody:

what's to stop someone from creating a simulated net or fence with "borders"?

The fact that the people judging validations would see it as a net or fence (although that's irrelevant in Expert).

Message edited by author 2014-08-05 21:39:27.
08/06/2014 12:01:50 AM · #18
Originally posted by Nobody:

A border goes around something - it doesn't segment it.

Well, yeah. But when you draw "boxes" such that you divide a single image into three separate images (triptych) you now have "3 images with borders in a row" perceptually. So yeah, those are borders in any meaningful sense of the word. Think of a map of Europe, many countries in the map, each with a border, many borders exist within the map. See?
08/06/2014 12:34:10 AM · #19


I thought EXPERT Editing was keep the images within the correct date then Balls to the Wall
08/06/2014 01:02:44 PM · #20
Originally posted by littlemav:

I thought EXPERT Editing was keep the images within the correct date then Balls to the Wall

Well, pretty much so. Basically the ONLY restrictions on Expert Editing were meant to be the date restrictions (shoot everything the week of the challenge), the authorship restrictions (shoot everything but textures yourself), the size restrictions (800px, 300kb), and the clipart, text, and genitalia exclusions.
08/06/2014 01:44:59 PM · #21
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by littlemav:

I thought EXPERT Editing was keep the images within the correct date then Balls to the Wall

Well, pretty much so. Basically the ONLY restrictions on Expert Editing were meant to be the date restrictions (shoot everything the week of the challenge), the authorship restrictions (shoot everything but textures yourself), the size restrictions (800px, 300kb), and the clipart, text, and genitalia exclusions.


In short, "Balls to the Wall" is still out...
08/06/2014 05:38:47 PM · #22
jejeje :-) Volleyballs would be fine...

Message edited by author 2014-08-06 17:39:04.
08/06/2014 05:42:22 PM · #23
Originally posted by ShaneBlake:

In short, "Balls to the Wall" is still out...

They're fine in shorts.
08/06/2014 06:31:33 PM · #24
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by ShaneBlake:

In short, "Balls to the Wall" is still out...

jejeje :-) Volleyballs would be fine...

Racquetball or Squash would actually be more appropriate.

...what is the thread topic again?
08/06/2014 07:25:14 PM · #25
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by ShaneBlake:

In short, "Balls to the Wall" is still out...

jejeje :-) Volleyballs would be fine...

Racquetball or Squash would actually be more appropriate.

...what is the thread topic again?

"Expert Balls & Towering Walls", I think...
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