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04/26/2015 05:37:44 PM · #1
I am looking for a bit of LR or PS help on a recent photo I took. Please take a look at the following photo:



I was shooting with the sun behind the subjects at 45 degrees to camera right and a 36" gold reflector reflecting light to the subjects.

Something in the shot caused the subjects to look very flat and I can't edit it to make it look any better. I thought it might be caused by the white balance and due to the fact that I used the gold reflector. To fix that I tried to change the white balance on the overall photo, then on the subjects only, then on the background only. Neither worked to create any depth. I tried working with the light and shadows, the contrast and the clarity. Neither of those worked to bring about any depth.

I was editing in LR4 but I have PSE9 also. Any help or advice would be appreciated. Feel free to download off the smugmug site and play around.

Thanks.
04/26/2015 06:05:10 PM · #2
They do seem a touch yellow to me, but I don't associate that with the flatness. I feel that it's the white sky that's pulling the attention away from them and effectively flattening the image.

I snagged a copy and played with it a bit. My first instinct was to darken (burn-sorta) the treeline behind the sisters. I did it in Photoshop with an Overlay layer at about 55% Opacity. I painted a big fat black bar across the treeline at about the older sister's shoulders and then went back in with the eraser to bring the gals back into the foreground.
04/26/2015 06:42:58 PM · #3
Doesn't look bad at all to me. One trick I frequently use is a very slight dark vignette around the edge. Not enough to be obvious, but it can help to steer the viewers eye where you want it to go.
04/26/2015 08:15:21 PM · #4
I think the issue is that the subject and the bg have the same tonal range, so the girls don't pop from the background. I did a very quick and dirty edit, making a copy of the layer, and reducing the brightness. Then adding a mask, and bringing out the girls from the brighter layer below. Less obvious than a vignette. Is this what you mean?

04/26/2015 08:36:55 PM · #5
Thanks All.

I have another shot from the same set that just a few frames prior. Hopefully you can see the difference. One has depth, the other appears to be flat. The only thing that changed is the aperture from f4 to f5.6. The first one I posted was SOOC shot at f4. The one below it is edited and shot at f5.6. Both have same shutter, same ISO.





I edited the second one which didn't really have any issues to my eye. I edited in LR with edits to the whole picture. No selective editing done. The edited version just appears to have more depth and I can't get the same result from the first image I uploaded.

I am willing to scrap it but it's the only one I have of both of them looking forward.

My thinking is that the reflected light was hitting them more straight on than from the side, which caused the flatness.

Message edited by author 2015-04-26 20:39:44.
04/26/2015 10:02:58 PM · #6
Remove the red and yellow from the backgound, and add a touch of contrast. The smaller aperture let in less light.
04/27/2015 02:12:53 AM · #7
Originally posted by tanguera:

I think the issue is that the subject and the bg have the same tonal range, so the girls don't pop from the background.

I just read an article** on this, and the recommendation was mainly to stop-down the aperture to darken the background and use a fill-flash to light your subjects and help separate them (make them "pop") from the BG.

**Outdoor Portrait Photography Tips

Message edited by author 2015-04-27 02:16:31.
04/27/2015 02:20:25 AM · #8
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by tanguera:

I think the issue is that the subject and the bg have the same tonal range, so the girls don't pop from the background.

I just read an article** on this, and the recommendation was mainly to stop-down the aperture to darken the background and use a fill-flash to light your subjects and help separate them (make them "pop") from the BG.

**Outdoor Portrait Photography Tips


I'd say do the adjustment with shutter speed and use a reflector not flash (to avoid sync limit). But then I'm a wide open aperture kind of guy.
04/27/2015 02:30:54 AM · #9
Originally posted by Paul:

I'd say do the adjustment with shutter speed and use a reflector not flash (to avoid sync limit). But then I'm a wide open aperture kind of guy.

You could use a ND filter to open the aperture while still slowing the shutter and moderating the flash.

But yeah, a reflector, flashlight, anything to to create relatively more light on the subject than the BG.
04/27/2015 02:43:02 AM · #10
Im not on my editing laptop to test this, but I don't think the colors are helping you here. As Joanna said the tonal range is very shallow. I would try processing the image as a black and white to bring out the contrasts, get the tones to pop a bit and then use it as an overlay to bring color back up as a multiplier.
04/27/2015 08:58:23 AM · #11
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Paul:

I'd say do the adjustment with shutter speed and use a reflector not flash (to avoid sync limit). But then I'm a wide open aperture kind of guy.

You could use a ND filter to open the aperture while still slowing the shutter and moderating the flash.

But yeah, a reflector, flashlight, anything to to create relatively more light on the subject than the BG.


an ND filter can really mess up your autofocus, especially those other than the center, and especially shooting into the sun. its fine when working with a model who knows how to hold a pose while you wait for the camera to do its thing, its another when shooting everyday people.

El-ROI, your issue is two fold, first the use of the gold reflector; not sure why you chose that but in my experience, white is usually the best option in unless you are shooting at sunset and you need extra light and the gold light will better match the ambient temp. even silver is just too much light when the sun is still high. you also should have put it off the camera axis, that is what is giving the flat look.

With no offense Johanna (:P), i dont like the background having a color temp different than the subject, it makes them pop too much.

two ways I would try to fix this, black and white and add some dodge and burn to get some shadows or try to lightly drop on a flare or light leak texture to remove the contrast and add a dreamy effect, basically cover up the flaws with processing that draws attention away or the best option, crop in closely on the hands :)
04/27/2015 09:13:12 AM · #12
I thought I would give it a try, and did something similar to tanguera. I processed the girls and the background separately. I just used levels on the background to darken it, and then reduced the reds (a little) and the yellows (a lot) on the girls. I also did some brightness/contrast adjustment (increased the contrast and lowered the brightness) and a small exposure adjustment (lowered the offset).

04/27/2015 10:47:24 AM · #13
Thanks everybody. I think that about covers it...

@ tanguera - I basically processed my second shot that way, however was not able to achieve the separation from the background on the first shot. So I will have to try again because I think you and FromDaRock did pretty good with that.

@ Paul & @ GeneralE - You are both right there. In the first shot, I had the aperture open a stop wider, which caused the flatness. The first shot was f4, the second shot was f5.6. In both, I used a reflector.

@ BrennanOB - I will definitely try to adjust the tonality of the image in black and white and overlay that onto the color as you suggested.

@ Mike - I used the gold reflector because I just got a reflector and don't know what I am doing with it. My niece has pale skin and I figured it would add some warmth to her skin tone. It did do that!! When you say I should have put the reflector off the camera axis do you mean that the reflected light was parallel with the lens direction and it should have been reflected from an angle, say 45 degrees or so? I do remember standing almost next to the reflector during this series.

Anyway, thanks again to all for the help. There is never a lack of learning from the folks at this site!!
04/27/2015 11:27:10 AM · #14
I use Topaz Remask for masking, it is a great tool.
04/27/2015 11:28:49 AM · #15
Originally posted by EL-ROI:



@ Mike - I used the gold reflector because I just got a reflector and don't know what I am doing with it. My niece has pale skin and I figured it would add some warmth to her skin tone. It did do that!!



you have two color temps here, the warm gold and the white sun, its like shooting under fluorescent with ungelled flash trying to fix with that awful green tinge. The point of the gold is to help atch the ambient light color temp when the sun is low, silver when its not. in the future, stick with white for fill and use the shiny side if you intend to overpower the sun (and blind your subjects :P)

dont forget shoot raw (and use a grey card) so you can adjust the color temp in post later more naturally when all the light is the same color temp.

Originally posted by EL-ROI:



@ Mike When you say I should have put the reflector off the camera axis do you mean that the reflected light was parallel with the lens direction and it should have been reflected from an angle, say 45 degrees or so? I do remember standing almost next to the reflector during this series.



yes, get it off to the side. in most cases you dont want a light source straight onto the subject as you tend to lose any shadows that define the features of the face and end up with a very flat look, same concept as using on camera flash. in the case of the sun i'll either place it opposite the sun to fill in the harsh shadows the sun is causing, this does tend to leave a hard edge at the shadow transition, or on the same side as the sun to help soften that transition, it depends on how the subject is posed and how strong the light is, etc. play with both to see how it works for you. the sun is a very strong unmodified light source and you need to treat it as such, that's why shooting mid afternoon in full sun is not ideal for portraits unless you can really make use of the hard light creatively.

04/27/2015 11:40:18 AM · #16
Originally posted by Mike:

With no offense Johanna (:P), i dont like the background having a color temp different than the subject, it makes them pop too much.


Deeply offended, Mike :P

The only reason I suggested that was because his second image was like that. The bg was MUCH cooler (and darker) than the subjects. My suggestions were to replicate that look.
04/27/2015 01:38:16 PM · #17

Here is my take. I found the biggest challenge was balancing out the yellows coming off the bounce with the very blue light coming off the background. The two hues seem to be at war and the skin tones are the battlefield. Though silver and gold reflectors have their place, for ease of editing a simple white foamcore bounce makes life editing so much easier since there is only one color of light to deal with when editing.
04/27/2015 08:37:54 PM · #18
Thanks again everyone. You guys were very helpful. I did learn a lot on this one! Hopefully will put it to the test on another shoot sometime.
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