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01/27/2017 11:04:08 AM · #1
Perhaps this is more of website suggestion, but since those go over like a fart in church, I will express it this way instead. And don't think less of me for bringing this up.

Why not change "Free Study" to Art of the Month, no jury required.

If all photography is art, than it makes sense. And this challenge was a success, in participation, comments, and quality of photography.

If all "Art" means something different compared to a free study challenge, then explain what.

If you "judge" the "Art" challenges differently, why? Can't big hi-res landscapes compete? Isn't this an art site at heart rather than a " look what my new camera, equipment or processing software can do?

Please don't reply, "No, things are just fine, not broke, let's keep going the way it is, do that as a side challenge" This is assumed, and this thread is to stimulate discussion.

Or, in the alternative, include art of the month as a new separate challenge each month- as irrational as that may be...

01/27/2017 11:12:02 AM · #2
We already have two Free Studies each month ... don't really see the need for another (or even a re-badging). The 'Art' challenge does so well because it does have a jury and in-depth comments, etc...

Are you suggesting that Don ( posthumous) do this every month?
01/27/2017 11:20:25 AM · #3
The Extended monthly FS could be the ART challenge. Wasn't it supposed to be art?

It can be called also: Extended Comments as to follow the example of the approach of the last jury of ART

Message edited by author 2017-01-27 11:25:47.
01/27/2017 11:29:32 AM · #4
I like the idea of a monthly art something...I was thinking that just yesterday. It needn't all be put in Don's lap either. Honestly, side challenges die after a couple days anymore. A prescribed art challenge might be good...might even get me to pay up again. I have more thoughts, but I'm typing on a tablet right now, so maybe more later.

I hope this doesn't turn into yet another thread of DPC-is-awesome-don't-change-a-thing either. The art challenge encouraged more site wide participation, which is never a bad thing.
01/27/2017 11:33:31 AM · #5
Originally posted by blindjustice:


If all photography is art, than it makes sense.


I'm not sure all photography *is* art. I don't see it that way anyway. I wouldn't call war photojournalism art. Or the photography you find on the outside of a cereal box. etc etc
01/27/2017 11:46:40 AM · #6
The monthly F-Art challenge. LOL
Not sure for that nomenclature.

01/27/2017 11:49:36 AM · #7
It was explained to me in one of my comments on my ART challenge entry:

"...the 'Art' challenges are about embracing the avant-garde garde, going beyond (or falling short of) conventional representations. ..."

So, I get it! Conventional photography, regardless of its caliber, is spurned by some who are looking for something different in "art" challenges. In other words, a significant portion of the membership does not believe all photography is "art".

Because my brain is not wired to create art (evidently), I would be excluded by this website suggestion. It's okay. There were other websites in which I did not fit... like Worth1000 and 1x.com. I'll get over it.
01/27/2017 12:54:52 PM · #8
Richard, do not place yourself in one single restrictive drawer and shut it close.
Did you, even from your place, make any comments in the ART challenge? Even, or more so, if you have a solid critique to them?

By what you say, a lot of artists might turn their back also, I mean painters. Paintings or music or ceramics or sculpture or architecture.... are not of one kind, as photography is not of one kind. You don't always measure a work of art by its level of craft only, by the way the painter masters the drawings or the medium or approaches a subject...it's a complex process

What is conventional photography? National Geographic type? Daguerre? Brassai? Commercial photography?
You seem to run in a short circle and ask the same questions: what is art while seeming to know for sure what photography is

If you love what you do, just do it.
01/27/2017 03:10:00 PM · #9
Originally posted by mariuca:

...
If you love what you do, just do it.


Yes, will comply! It's okay. I'm just not interested in producing blurry, avant-garde images. But, I certainly accept and respect others' interest in alternative styles.
01/27/2017 03:42:18 PM · #10
Originally posted by hahn23:

Originally posted by mariuca:

...
If you love what you do, just do it.


Yes, will comply! It's okay. I'm just not interested in producing blurry, avant-garde images. But, I certainly accept and respect others' interest in alternative styles.


Richard, you don't need me to say it, but you are a great photographer- and if photography is art, which at least a lot of us think it is, then you are a great artist as well.

The point of this thread is- blurry, avant-garde ("fine art") images are just as much "photography"(I mean, they are made with a camera...) as Nature and Mountain landscape photography = "art."

01/27/2017 04:18:22 PM · #11
Originally posted by blindjustice:

...

The point of this thread is- blurry, avant-garde ("fine art") images are just as much "photography"(I mean, they are made with a camera...) as Nature and Mountain landscape photography = "art."


I believe this is true! Alas, there are a significant number of members who don't believe this to be true from the reverse perspective.
01/27/2017 04:21:43 PM · #12
It is such a broad church and all opinions are kind of valid. Always good to discuss though.

It's not about blurry/sharp or any of those dichotomies though. Not the technicalities.

One notion I am always in mind of is one that ubique mentioned a few years ago which he talked about a photographer using (I think it was Paolo Pellegrin) and this is the idea of 'open' and 'closed' photographs. 'Open' photographs are moveable, have room for interpretation and act as questions and spring boards. 'Closed' photographs are fixed within the frame and all that is needed is held within. It's not a judgement call that one is better than the other. I'm not sure it that was applied to 'art' in general or if I am misremembering but it seems like one thing to think about when we get into these discussions.

Brecht famously said, “Art is not a mirror held up to reality but a hammer with which to shape it.”

That's another way to think about it I guess.

I've got my own ideas on what art is or is not. They are confused. Here are some…

Advertising - I detest advertising. Anything that is created in order to sell something else or purely to create money is not art.

Fashion can be great, fantastic art.

Tracy Emin's bed is art

I'm in two minds about Andy Warhol.

Message edited by author 2017-01-27 16:51:46.
01/27/2017 04:26:14 PM · #13
For what it's worth - I do think that landscape art - such as Richard's amazing scenes - are art. They do fall into that category of 'closed' images that I mentioned above but like I say, it's not a hierarchical thing. I've got huge respect for Richard's work and other landscape photographers.
01/27/2017 04:28:52 PM · #14
I think there is also a distinction between 'Art' and 'Craft'. A fabulous carpenter who hand crafts amazing chairs and tables are utmost in respect from me.
01/27/2017 04:44:15 PM · #15
I'm rambling but here are another couple of definitions that *I* have of art, or what art is…

Political

Not party politics or lame stuff like that but the bigger, wider picture, or the smaller personal politics. Art is good at that.

Unconsciousness

I think i've done very little art but I know when i've done it and it's those moments when i've let go a bit and let my 'inner' self take over a bit. Either through what I am perceiving and looking at or just catching the 'moment' which I see as a bit of a collaboration. All that 'Muse' stuff. That works for me.

Message edited by author 2017-01-27 16:45:04.
01/27/2017 04:55:12 PM · #16
Originally posted by hahn23:

It was explained to me in one of my comments on my ART challenge entry:

"...the 'Art' challenges are about embracing the avant-garde garde, going beyond (or falling short of) conventional representations. ..."

So, I get it! Conventional photography, regardless of its caliber, is spurned by some who are looking for something different in "art" challenges. In other words, a significant portion of the membership does not believe all photography is "art".

Because my brain is not wired to create art (evidently), I would be excluded by this website suggestion. It's okay. There were other websites in which I did not fit... like Worth1000 and 1x.com. I'll get over it.


I'd have thought 1x would have offered up images that resonated well with your work Richard:
01/27/2017 05:05:50 PM · #17
Originally posted by hahn23:

It was explained to me in one of my comments on my ART challenge entry:

"...the 'Art' challenges are about embracing the avant-garde garde, going beyond (or falling short of) conventional representations. ..."

So, I get it! Conventional photography, regardless of its caliber, is spurned by some who are looking for something different in "art" challenges. In other words, a significant portion of the membership does not believe all photography is "art".

Because my brain is not wired to create art (evidently), I would be excluded by this website suggestion. It's okay. There were other websites in which I did not fit... like Worth1000 and 1x.com. I'll get over it.


On reflection I put my inverted commas in the wrong place. I was referring to the 'Art challenges' - I wouldn't say that 'conventional photography' is by definition not art. Just that my perception of the DPC Art challenges, as derived from the original Fine Art challenge is by definition different to the normal FS - it shouldn't be Best of 2016 II (or I in this case).

I began by writing: "For me, this doesn't represent the sort of image I'm hoping to enjoy in this challenge." [New emphasis in bold].

I'd rate many of your images highly in a regular FS but the same images in an Art FS would score quite differently, since I take the Art challenges (due to precedent) to be for the purposes of showcasing an alternative aesthetic.

I know your OK with that and thanks for the discussion.

01/27/2017 05:40:51 PM · #18
Originally posted by mariuca:

The Extended monthly FS could be the ART challenge. Wasn't it supposed to be art?

It can be called also: Extended Comments as to follow the example of the approach of the last jury of ART


Not quite the same thing. A lot of the entries in the extended FS are more digital art than photography. The great thing of the Art challenge was that it was standard editing, so the entries still pretty much looked like photos.
01/27/2017 05:52:19 PM · #19
Originally posted by GinaRothfels:

......Not quite the same thing. A lot of the entries in the extended FS are more digital art than photography. The great thing of the Art challenge was that it was standard editing, so the entries still pretty much looked like photos.


Surely art is art regardless of the media/style/etc?
01/27/2017 05:59:40 PM · #20
Originally posted by MichaelC:

Originally posted by GinaRothfels:

......Not quite the same thing. A lot of the entries in the extended FS are more digital art than photography. The great thing of the Art challenge was that it was standard editing, so the entries still pretty much looked like photos.


Surely art is art regardless of the media/style/etc?


Yes, but I feel that to mix it all together under expert editing is always going to favour those with the best editing skills. Art created through photographic skill interests me a lot more.
01/27/2017 06:40:59 PM · #21
I agree the EFS is dominated by a 'digital art look' and that is IMO not what is wanted for an Art FS. However, I don't believe you should be putting ruleset restrictions on something that is essentially an Art FS. I have seen many examples of photographic based art that I would gladly hang on my wall that would require expert editing, I think it is just a matter of nurturing those with the skills and desire to create that kind of work to do so.
01/27/2017 10:45:23 PM · #22
I wish I could offer advice, but "Free," "Best," and "Art" all mean the same thing to me.
01/28/2017 10:38:35 AM · #23
I guess in suggesting this I was trying to have too much of a good thing- to catch the lightning-in-the-jar that is the "once a year" type challenges, (especially in light of the fact that this was a retro- find a gem type challenge.)

Perhaps there is a truth discovered in all of this: The names we give to things are arbitrary but do shape how we enter, vote and perceive entries.

Let's assume arguendo that tomorrow there were no more categories- just one contest per week no description. Then we try to get as many people to vote and comment as possible, and review the results- what style wins- a Gyaban style manipulation, a deep fine art shot, a pristine HDR hi res landscape, studio portrait- I wonder.
01/28/2017 11:02:50 AM · #24
Therein lies the problem. I doubt that the fine art shot is going to win.
01/28/2017 11:06:01 AM · #25
Originally posted by GinaRothfels:

Therein lies the problem. I doubt that the fine art shot is going to win.


right- so is it an honest assessment about the state of photography in general as to what is "best or most popular" - or just on this site? I am guessing that some would snuffle and say, condescendingly- that is just the way people vote- they naturally like it and think it is better- what can we do?

Perhaps it is the "contest" aspect that makes it feel like sports rather than art... Still fun though.

Message edited by author 2017-01-28 11:08:34.
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