Is in-camera HDR allowed in minimal rules?

06/11/2017 10:57:15 PM · #1

I'm guessing it's not because of the "single capture" requirement, but is it?

06/12/2017 03:20:52 AM · #2

Blimey dude, you still around? hahaha.

regarding your question, I would say no it's not allowed

06/12/2017 06:22:53 AM · #3

I'd think it is (allowed) ... it's in-camera, it's not something you make the camera do 'AFTER' the capture.

06/12/2017 06:50:49 AM · #4

Originally posted by glad2badad:

I'd think it is (allowed) ... it's in-camera, it's not something you make the camera do 'AFTER' the capture.

actually the camera takes the single capture then creates 1 under and 1 over exposure and blends them together, so, yes it is something the camera does AFTER the capture is made.

Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark III

06/12/2017 07:16:33 AM · #5

Originally posted by MAK:

Originally posted by glad2badad:
I'd think it is (allowed) ... it's in-camera, it's not something you make the camera do 'AFTER' the capture.

actually the camera takes the single capture then creates 1 under and 1 over exposure and blends them together, so, yes it is something the camera does AFTER the capture is made.

That may be so, but it's not something YOU do ... i.e you're not manually selecting an area to crop, highlight for special effects, etc...

GinaRothfels

Olympus 8mm f/1.8 M.Zuiko Digital ED Fisheye PRO Lens

06/12/2017 07:48:31 AM · #6

This is what my camera does if you use in-camera HDR with a moving subject.

I seriously doubt that would pass under minimal editing.

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

Canon RF 24-70 f2.8 L IS

06/12/2017 08:26:17 AM · #7

I'd wait for someone currently on SC to respond, but I can't imagine that it would be allowed in Minimal.

FromDaRock

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS II USM Lens

06/12/2017 08:40:59 AM · #8

Originally posted by MAK:

That depends on the camera, mine takes multiple shots at different exposures (5D III). I can't imagine that's allowed under minimal (even with a single exposure).

06/12/2017 10:32:29 AM · #9

Originally posted by FromDaRock:

Originally posted by MAK:

Originally posted by glad2badad:
I'd think it is (allowed) ... it's in-camera, it's not something you make the camera do 'AFTER' the capture.

actually the camera takes the single capture then creates 1 under and 1 over exposure and blends them together, so, yes it is something the camera does AFTER the capture is made.

That depends on the camera, mine takes multiple shots at different exposures (5D III). I can't imagine that's allowed under minimal (even with a single exposure).

Definitely not multi-exposures in camera, and i very much doubt it is legit with a camera that utilises a single capture to 'make' an HDR image in-camera so to speak.

06/12/2017 10:57:51 AM · #10

Originally posted by MAK:

Originally posted by FromDaRock:

Originally posted by MAK:

Originally posted by glad2badad:
I'd think it is (allowed) ... it's in-camera, it's not something you make the camera do 'AFTER' the capture.

actually the camera takes the single capture then creates 1 under and 1 over exposure and blends them together, so, yes it is something the camera does AFTER the capture is made.

That depends on the camera, mine takes multiple shots at different exposures (5D III). I can't imagine that's allowed under minimal (even with a single exposure).

Definitely not multi-exposures in camera, and i very much doubt it is legit with a camera that utilises a single capture to 'make' an HDR image in-camera so to speak.

Does your camera create a single, valid exif file, for the final output? If yes, then I believe it's valid.

06/12/2017 11:50:33 AM · #11

Originally posted by MAK:

Blimey dude, you still around? hahaha.

regarding your question, I would say no it's not allowed

Yeah, I'm back after several years away. :)

Looks like I opened up a can of worms, no worries though, I went with a non-HDR single capture.

06/12/2017 12:00:25 PM · #12

We don't allow in-camera HDR in Minimal Editing.

06/12/2017 12:29:39 PM · #13

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

We don't allow in-camera HDR in Minimal Editing.

How would you know if it's in-camera HDR. The exif would be valid and say it's one exposure. There's also "fake" in-camera "HDR" where it's only one image with Auto-DRO set at max value.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

06/12/2017 12:35:41 PM · #14

Minimal Rules

You must...
- create your entry in JPG format from a single capture. (RAW images may not be used in Minimal Editing).

"... a single capture" would be one push of the shutter button.

You may not...
- make any other adjustments to your image than those listed above. This includes, but is not limited to, cropping, adjusting brightness, hue/saturation, levels, curves, etc. Except as provided above, your image as entered must be identical to the original image as it came out of the camera.

"your image as entered must be identical to the original image as it came out of the camera" - this means no post-processing. If the image entered is the same as what the camera produced and is valid exif, it would meet the rules as written.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

06/12/2017 12:41:44 PM · #15

A "single capture" is having the shutter open and close one time. There are many occasions when a single press of the shutter button causes the shutter to open and close more than once. Also, I consider any form of HDR to constitute a "tone adjustment" -- otherwise why would you be using it? -- and that would have to happen after the data is captured and analyzed.

Message edited by author 2017-06-12 12:42:01.

06/12/2017 01:00:08 PM · #16

Just for the sake of argument, let's say Barry's right and we have gotten, or are about to get, to a point where SC can't TELL if muli-image or multi-layer sorcery has been applied in-camera, as far as EXIF is concerned.

If that happens, then Minimal Editing is no longer a valid ruleset and we'll probably relegate it to the DPC history dustbin. The whole POINT of minimal editing is to produce straight-from-the-camera, real-world snapshots that use no post processing whatsoever. CLEARLY, any form of HDR or other pronounced image intensification is processing accomplished by the camera after the image has been captured. There's no question about this.

The problem, to the extent that there IS one, is that JPG files, by their very nature, are post-processed in-camera and then delivered to the photographer. We have considered such settings as saturation, white balance, contrast, and exposure to be "normal" presets that the photographer dials in before taking the shot, much as users of color transparency analog materials chose their film (Ektachrome, Kodachrome, Fujichrome, Agfachrome, whatever) because the given film's characteristics suited their vision. We have considered any other more "modern" in-camera features as effectively being post-processing, in keeping with the spirit of the rule. If this becomes a problem for our members, I expect we'll just axe the Minimal Editing ruleset, as I said above, and occasionally hold "no cropping allowed" challenges in Standard Editing if that's something people want.

I'd be sad to see Minimal Editing fall by the wayside, but I'm pretty sure that's what will happen if enough people decide to find loopholes in the concept and exploit them. I mean, c'mon, it's simple! Normal pictures, just like the old days, for an occasional blast from the past. Can't we just agree to keep it that way?

Message edited by author 2017-06-12 13:01:57.

Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark III

06/12/2017 01:21:40 PM · #17

Probably best to explicitly state in the minimal rules that in-camera HDR is not allowed, so there isn't any confusion for new or returning members.

GinaRothfels

Olympus 8mm f/1.8 M.Zuiko Digital ED Fisheye PRO Lens

06/12/2017 01:45:45 PM · #18

Just out of curiosity, would the photo I posted earlier be legal under the standard rule set?

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

Canon RF 24-70 f2.8 L IS

06/12/2017 01:51:33 PM · #19

Originally posted by bryanbrazil:

Probably best to explicitly state in the minimal rules that in-camera HDR is not allowed, so there isn't any confusion for new or returning members.

Might be difficult to avoid a long "laundry list" of items, since if one is listed, how, then to avoid a comprehensive listing without creating endless questions on specific features?.
One potential way out of that morass would be to list only those in-camera features that are allowed, and specify that no others are allowed. Even then, the list of allowed features might get long.

K3Master

Pentax K-3

Pentax D-FA* 70-200mm f/2.8 ED DC AW

06/12/2017 02:09:40 PM · #20

Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by bryanbrazil:
Probably best to explicitly state in the minimal rules that in-camera HDR is not allowed, so there isn't any confusion for new or returning members.

Might be difficult to avoid a long "laundry list" of items, since if one is listed, how, then to avoid a comprehensive listing without creating endless questions on specific features?.
One potential way out of that morass would be to list only those in-camera features that are allowed, and specify that no others are allowed. Even then, the list of allowed features might get long.

Or, just leave it as it is and have SC verify questions in threads whilst ignoring the usual suspects that seem to love nitpicking constantly

06/12/2017 02:13:48 PM · #21

Originally posted by GinaRothfels:

Just out of curiosity, would the photo I posted earlier be legal under the standard rule set?

No. The scene is changing between exposures.

06/12/2017 02:21:00 PM · #22

Well - we could change the Minimal Ruleset and call it the SOOC Ruleset. Then you could use all the features your camera is capable of without concern and as a photographer you'd still be challenging yourself to learn the tool you have to capture photos with.

For me the gist behind shooting for Minimal challenges is to learn your camera better. The challenge to compose your photo correctly. To not tilt the horizon (unless you want to of course). To watch the edges of your frame for intruding elements. Etc, etc ...

Use your camera. No need to sit in front of your computer manipulating (except to resize and sharpen).

06/12/2017 02:30:31 PM · #23

Originally posted by bryanbrazil:

Originally posted by MAK:
Blimey dude, you still around? hahaha.

regarding your question, I would say no it's not allowed

Yeah, I'm back after several years away. :)

Looks like I opened up a can of worms, no worries though, I went with a non-HDR single capture.

Good to see you back man.

06/12/2017 02:40:27 PM · #24

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Yeah, but there are features in the newer cameras that we don't allow in STANDARD editing, let alone "minimal"...

Originally posted by glad2badad:

For me the gist behind shooting for Minimal challenges is to learn your camera better. The challenge to compose your photo correctly. To not tilt the horizon (unless you want to of course). To watch the edges of your frame for intruding elements.

All of those are what we're doing now :-)