Legality of Nik Silver Efex for basic challenges

Sony Sonnar T* 35mm F2.8 ZA

06/24/2009 12:33:51 AM · #1

The software can do spot stuff (control points, vignetting, etc) but also does just overall conversion to B&W. If used only with the overall conversion bit (no spot stuff), is it legal for basic editing challenges? I would assume it is similar to using LightRoom - as long as one doesn't include any of the potential spot stuff (vignetting is one I know of), that should be fine, too. Yay? Nay?

salmiakki

Sony Alpha a7R III

06/24/2009 01:08:27 AM · #2

Deb, I've always assumed it is not legal since it is accessed via the filter menu, but would also be interested to know the right answer.

06/24/2009 02:11:29 AM · #3

Not sure but if I had to guess I would say no. It could be legal if we are just talking about the channel mixer options it has but I'm guessing you want to also be able to use styling and film type etc and that stuff probably wouldn't fly.

Message edited by author 2009-06-24 02:12:38.

06/24/2009 02:15:20 AM · #4

Sarah, you bring up a good point - it's applied as layers (when you look at the history in Photoshop) and I'd need to check to see how those layers are created and applied. Forgot about that.

As for the styling - we're allowed to add film grain, yes? But I suspect it's not added evenly with the film styles in Nik. I'd think the toning applications would be OK, though.

Message edited by author 2009-06-24 02:15:46.

06/24/2009 02:26:46 AM · #5

Well it seems to me it's a lot like the virtual photographer plugin which if I recall had lots of those toning/gradient-like effects you could apply and then fine tune with sliders. I know that one isn't legal.

Message edited by author 2009-06-24 02:28:02.

06/24/2009 02:28:53 AM · #6

I'm guessing that to be on the safe side I should avoid using it for Basic challenges. Which is too bad, because it does kick-butt high contrast. :-)

06/24/2009 02:29:00 AM · #7

Btw, why not just use the channel mixer, b/w adjustment layer and or curves to create the conversion and toning?

Message edited by author 2009-06-24 02:29:29.

Sony Sonnar T* 35mm F2.8 ZA

06/24/2009 02:33:36 AM · #8

I do - that's what I did before I had that software. And I still do that from time to time, but the Nik stuff does it so much quicker! :-)

salmiakki

Sony Alpha a7R III

06/24/2009 02:34:43 AM · #9

Originally posted by Melethia:

I do - that's what I did before I had that software. And I still do that from time to time, but the Nik stuff does it so much quicker! :-)

Word for word what I was about to say. Won't use anything else other than Silver Efex unless I have to now.

nixter

Fujifilm X-Pro 1

Fujifilm XF 18mm f/2 Lens X-Pro1

06/24/2009 03:00:47 AM · #10

Just be careful that if it adds layers, that it doesn't change the blending mode in any way. If it does, that would not be legal in basic.

ben4345

Nikon D700

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

06/24/2009 06:13:50 AM · #11

I use NX2 and Efex 3... I have been wondering if they're legal too.

Covert_Oddity

Nikon D700

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

06/24/2009 07:22:41 AM · #12

Originally posted by salmiakki:

Originally posted by Melethia:
I do - that's what I did before I had that software. And I still do that from time to time, but the Nik stuff does it so much quicker! :-)

Word for word what I was about to say. Won't use anything else other than Silver Efex unless I have to now.

Completely agree, and I can never quite get the same results as I do using Silver Efex, it just produces great B&W conversions!

dainmcgowan

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

06/24/2009 08:17:03 AM · #13

Originally posted by Melethia:

Sarah, you bring up a good point - it's applied as layers (when you look at the history in Photoshop) and I'd need to check to see how those layers are created and applied. Forgot about that.

there is an option to not create new layers!

i still don't know if that would fly though.

maybe a ticket needs to be raised as no SC in this thread yet!!

spiritualspatula

Panasonic LUMIX DMC-LX100

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

06/24/2009 10:36:17 PM · #14

Originally posted by dainmcgowan:

... no SC in this thread yet!!

We're sitting on pins and needles waiting. Any SC online that are adventurous enough to respond?

geoffb

06/24/2009 10:39:51 PM · #15

Originally posted by dainmcgowan:

Originally posted by Melethia:
Sarah, you bring up a good point - it's applied as layers (when you look at the history in Photoshop) and I'd need to check to see how those layers are created and applied. Forgot about that.

there is an option to not create new layers!

i still don't know if that would fly though.

maybe a ticket needs to be raised as no SC in this thread yet!!

Also, the Lightroom version doesn't add any layers.

06/25/2009 12:01:45 AM · #16

Ah, I hadn't thought about the Lightroom version - good point. As long as you check to make sure whatever setting you're using in LR doesn't add a vignette or lens correction, I think it's good to go. Definitely "universal" adjustments, and doesn't involve blending modes.

06/25/2009 12:04:59 AM · #17

There you go, lightroom the great big loop hole. :P

06/25/2009 12:05:50 AM · #18

LOL! If I had your skillz, Richard, I'd not be using all these other tools. :-)

06/25/2009 12:22:18 AM · #19

Actually, my beef (if I have one) is on what constitutes an effect. Lightroom can be used to preserve image integrity or it can be used like a great big effect filter. Heck, even a curves adjustment has that ability. I could use it to get the correct white point or I could use it to create a cross process effect. One should be legal and the other not if I am to take this part of the rules seriously:

"You may use filters or stand-alone utilities designed to preserve image integrity (such as Neat Image, Unsharp Mask, Dust & Scratches, and color correction tools). These filters must be applied uniformly to the entire image, and must not be used in such a way that their use becomes a feature. No �effects� filters may be applied to your image, with the exception of Noise and Gaussian Blur."

Now if Basic Editing was interpreted like Advance Editing, i.e. results based, paragraphs like that one might actually mean something and you could anticipate what would be allowed and what wouldn't based on how you planned to apply the tool.

Message edited by author 2009-06-25 00:29:34.

Sigma 15mm f/2.8 EX Diagonal Fisheye for Nikon

06/25/2009 01:45:16 AM · #20

I agree there's a fine line between "effect" and "integrity". Often a matter of opinion or taste, so that makes it tough. And I do think there's still a need for basic editing. I think some try to push the boundary, but in my opinion, the "basic" challenges should indeed focus on just that - the basics. Composition, lighting, cropping, etc. May be time for more advanced challenges. And maybe the basic challenge topics can lend themselves to things like composition, lighting, etc (the basic technical aspects) while the advanced challenge topics can lend themselves to interpretive or emotive results. Just a few random thoughts.

muckpond

Nikon D200

06/25/2009 08:41:59 AM · #21

i'll jump in!

i'm not fancypants enough to have the Nik filters, but my gut says that you should avoid them in basic.

if it creates an adjustment layer applied in Normal mode only, we'd have to look at it.

does anyone want to give it a shot and post a screengrab of the history panel for review? i'll look for a demo of the filters.

muckpond

Nikon D200

Sigma 15mm f/2.8 EX Diagonal Fisheye for Nikon

06/25/2009 08:43:27 AM · #22

oop -- never mind. from the filter's website:

"Featuring Nik Software�s patented U Point® technology to selectively control the tonality and contrast..."

so, nay nay Fluffy. sorry :(

glad2badad

DJI Mavic Air 2

Sears 55mm f/1.4 M42

06/25/2009 08:45:42 AM · #23

Watching with interest. I have Nik filter plug-ins I'd LOVE to use in basic editing challenges! To this point I've avoided them as I felt they were "special effects". Kind of like VirtualPhotographer (which is specifically mentioned as a no-no in the Administrator Announcements forum along with Photomatix and LucisArts).

ETA - Took too long in typing my post while muckpond was responding.

Message edited by author 2009-06-25 08:46:55.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S21, S21+, S21 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

06/25/2009 09:05:08 AM · #24

Originally posted by muckpond:

oop -- never mind. from the filter's website:

"Featuring Nik Software�s patented U Point® technology to selectively control the tonality and contrast..."

so, nay nay Fluffy. sorry :(

I think the point is you don't HAVE to use the u-points to make your conversion; it can be applied globally to the entire image. As an analogue, consider that Lightroom itself has the u-point technology, but SC hasn't banned lightroom in basic. For that matter, photoshop allows selections, of course, and they can be used in conjunction with the B/W adjustment layer, but nobody has banned THAT, last I've heard. No, we're told we can use the adjustment layer in basic, but we can't combine it with selections.

ALL of our editing tools make possible one sort of selection or another, and it's the USE of selections that is banned in basic, not the tools themselves. So why is it different here? Am I missing something? I'm not expert at Nik (I used the program on free trial but never bought it), but it didn't seem to me to be all that different, at its most basic level, than the CS3 B/W adjustment layer...

R.