Post Election Collective Thread - DPChallenge Forums

11/09/2004 02:59:16 PM · #276

Judith --

your last article is laughable.

If Clinton's Monica incident has happened during his first term he would not have gotten re-elected.

Remember what happened in 1994 when the Congress pass the assault weapons ban? REpublicans BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF THE DEMOCRATS and turn it into a Republican control congress because gun owners are pretty pissed off of all the liberal crap they've been spouting -- including gun bans and national healthcare attempts by Hillary Clinton.

The last two Democratic presidents -- one was a lameduck one termer, the other was IMPEACHED. Is that how you want to judge a party by?

Democrats will never win another national presidential election in this country until they have a candidate that addresses the view of the middle America, not the liberal areas. Kerry doesn't even come close to winning -- if you consider all the factors that are against Bush, he should have won and won easily, instead he got a 3.5 million vote spread difference and Bush beats him easily, with a majority of votes, with more votes than Clinton has.

Tony

11/09/2004 03:01:22 PM · #277

Don't give Democrats any more ideas, please :-) Next thing you know there will be a Pedophile Rights convention soon.

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Originally posted by paganini:
.... gay rights activist will never admit that gays are "chooosing" their lifestyle, because if they do, then the argument that gays should enjoy the same rights as other people is lessen a lot.

This statement explains why YOU CHOOSE to believe homosexuality is a choice, because it allows you to act on your bigotry with less guilt. Do you have a choice with respect to your heterosexuality?

Why would anyone choose to be reviled and discriminated against?

Though I'm not defending paganini ( he can do that for himself), I just wanted to point out the problems inherent in your rebuttal.
1) Do I have a choice with respect to my heterosexuality? Absolutely. I may not have a choice in my heterosexual feelings and desires, but I most certainly exercise choice in the actions I undertake in response to those them - namely I choose to not approach that beautiful woman in the supermarket aisle with a view to seducing her, even though I may imagine such in my mind - why? Because, to me, it would be immoral. The thoughts are difficult, if not impossible, to eliminate; but the actions are a choice I get to make each time such thoughts appear.

2) Unfortunately, we're back to Pedophiles - why, indeed, would anyone choose to be a pedophile - reviled and discriminated against much more than are gays. If you can tell me why a pedophile would do what he does ( choice, genetics, or a bit of both ), then you have your answer. If you cannot tell me why, then you still have an answer. Either way, it may not be the answer you seek.

kevinf

11/10/2004 04:00:42 PM · #278

I'm joining this late I think but I still had to weigh in. I've gone through and read some of the last posts and I have to say I couldn't care less whether other animals exhibit homosexuality or not. We as humans do. There is a question of why. Is it choice? Is it nature, or nurture? As far as I'm concerned that doesn't matter either. Humans along with Dolphins (if there are more there is an extreme few) are the only animal which has sex for pleasure. It's not only for procreation, it's fun. And it's damn fun. When I have sex with another consenting adult am I choosing to? Most definitely. And no matter how unnatural or immoral someone else may think my choices are I will never apologize. If I fall love, I will never apologize. I will dedicate myself to honoring, respecting and growing that because love is indeed the most precious and valuable thing in the world. Do my choices indicate a mental defect. That is an argument some participate in and you can call me defective all you want but that's no reason to legally ban two people from spending their life together. Mentally disabled, murderers, child molesters all have the legal right to marry. They are who they are for whatever reason and still we uphold their legal rights. Why not homosexuals? (I'm only equating them to shoot down the argument).

As to the argument that liberals need to wake up and realize this country is conservative, I say open your eyes. Our entire history as a nation has shown us to be ever progressing toward a more liberal mindset. We have abolished slavery, given Women the right to vote, given them and minorities equal right oportunity to education and employment, legalized abortion, and brought homosexuality to the most cuturally accepted point western civilization has ever seen. This tren will continue. Conservatives will inevitably lose evry battle fought against radical liberals. We will uphold civil rights, women's rights, and yes the rights of all gays and lesbians as well. Wake up conservatives - you are losing.

11/10/2004 07:08:58 PM · #279

I will always be astonished that "morals" won this election for a man whose policies have caused the suffering and deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in the world and who is promoting discrimination and even adding it to our constitution.

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law"
"Equal rights for all, special privileges for none"
-Thomas Jefferson

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

11/10/2004 07:30:57 PM · #280

MOral values?

Martin Luther King was a preacher and he based it on his religious beliefs. To say that religion has no place in this country is ludicrous.

It was the Republican that overthrew slavery, under a REpublican called Lincoln. The 'liberal and progressive' Democrats at that time were the slave owners. Don't twist facts around, OK? It was Republicans that sided with Lyndon Johnson in the South to integrate schools, not the Democrats.

No one is talking about banning gay unions together here, merely saying that we can't just change marriage from man and womn to man and man and woman to woman. That's the fundamental fabric in our society.

Don't worry, abortion will soon be a thing of the past. Abortion is murder. You know how they do these late term abortions that Kerry voted AGAINST the ban of partial birth abortion? They take the baby who is 9 month mature and then BAHSED ITS SKULL with a blunt object. That's how they abort babies in late term. No one should justify that. If Western Civilization keep going at the path that Europe has gone, it will soon be over. You'll find that most civilization era end because of loss of morals. Prior to the dark ages, the Roman empire was pretty damn powerful but it collapsed on moral grounds.

Liberalism is nothing more than corruption of the human soul. You call it progressive, but it's merely poison. If allowing murder of babies can be called progress, then all hope is lost. Keep supporting these fringe groups, and you'll find Democrats end up as the minority party in this country.

I think when Democrat nominate Hillary Clinton as the presidential candidate, you'll see jus how conservative this country is. If peopel think that 59 million turnout with evangelical support is large, they haevn't seen anything yet. Clinton will energize the conservatives, and i'd expect it'd be 80 million voters for the Republican candidate next time around.

Originally posted by kevinf:

Message edited by author 2004-11-10 19:33:51.

mrorange002

Canon EOS-5D

11/10/2004 07:35:39 PM · #281

Originally posted by paganini:

MOral values?

Martin Luther King was a preacher and he based it on his religious beliefs. To say that religion has no place in this country is ludicrous.

If Western Civilization keep going at the path that Europe has gone, it will soon be over. You'll find that most civilization era end because of loss of morals. Prior to the dark ages, the Roman empire was pretty damn powerful but it collapsed on moral grounds.

Liberalism is nothing more than corruption of the human soul. You call it progressive, but it's merely poison. If allowing murder of babies can be called progress, then all hope is lost. Keep supporting these fringe groups, and you'll find Democrats end up as the minority party in this country.

I think when Democrat nominate Hillary Clinton as the presidential candidate, you'll see jus how conservative this country is. If peopel think that 59 million turnout with evangelical support is large, they haevn't seen anything yet. Clinton will energize the conservatives, and i'd expect it'd be 80 million voters for the Republican candidate next time around.

Yeah, because every good conservative knows that woman are immoral, and a liberal woman is nothing but a corrupt human soul.

Hey paganini, A good Lesbian friend of mine is one of the best psycologists in the nation, Would you like her number? I'm sure she would give you a good deal.

Here's a little history lesson for you: a brief history of the collapse of the roman empire

sorry but the roman empire did NOT collapse because of their moral values.

Martin Luther King taught EQUALITY and CIVIL LIBERTIES

Checked the news lately? The EURO is the stongest it's ever been against the dollar. Europe is headed in the right direction. And has been since the end of WW2

Message edited by author 2004-11-10 19:58:41.

frisca

Nikon D70

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

11/10/2004 07:53:23 PM · #282

I am so shocked and angry at the things you have said in your posts over the last few pages of this thread that I can barely put my mind to typing out my thoughts. I will say this though:

Supporting a woman's right to choose IS NOT EQUAL TO supporting late term abortion. Don't use scare tactics to forward your backward and oppressive agenda.

Before you speak about "late term abortions", can you cite how many of these occur, which states and WHY they occur?

Seals are clubbed (brutally and wrongly I might add), not babies.

Originally posted by paganini:

Don't worry, abortion will soon be a thing of the past. Abortion is murder. You know how they do these late term abortions that Kerry voted AGAINST the ban of partial birth abortion? They take the baby who is 9 month mature and then BAHSED ITS SKULL with a blunt object. That's how they abort babies in late term.

Canon EOS-60D

Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS

11/10/2004 08:00:28 PM · #283

Just as a little FYI because this is something important to me and to my career...

1. Late term abortions are not performed by "bashing" a baby's skull in with a blunt object.

2. Late term abortions are not common.

3. Most abortion providers do not perform late term abortions. In the major metro area closest to my house, I have found three providers that will consider a post-20 week abortion, but only with serious genetic and personal counseling, and with two medical opinions that certify either severe problems with the fetus or jeopardy to the mother's health.

4. A healthy pregnant woman, with a healthy fetus, cannot just enter an abortion clinic at 7, 8, or 9 months and request an abortion. It simply does not happen that way.

5. In nearly every case I've been involved with, any considerations of abortion are made within the first 12 weeks. Beyond that, even most abortion providers will counsel toward adoption.

Flame away, but these tidbits of info are based upon my own professional experiences and I know them to be true in my area.

11/10/2004 08:39:12 PM · #284

Originally posted by laurielblack:

Perhaps your area is like that, but nationwide:

According to a survey conducted by the Alan Guttmacher Institute, "an estimated total of 31 providers performed the procedure 2,200 times in 2000."

Dr. Martin Haskell, from Ohio, owns three abortion clinics, all called Women's Med Center ( ref:here). In 1992 Haskell published a paper describing how to perform what he called "dilation and extraction." Circulation of this paper led to introduction of the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act by congressman Charles Canady, a Florida Republican, in 1995. Haskell wrote that he used this method on all of his clients from 20 through 24 weeks, unless they had certain health problems, and on "selected" clients through 26 weeks. He told American Medical News that 80 percent of his late abortions were "purely elective." The head of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers admitted to the New York Times in 1997 that the method is used thousands of times annually, and that "in the vast majority of cases, the procedure is performed on a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along."

And if that's not bad enough, Canada is sending its women to the U.S. to receive late-term abortions:

From this link
Ontario taxpayers paid $400,000 last year to send 56 women to the United States for late term abortions, reports Life Canada, the educational arm of the pro-life movement in Canada. The Ontario Ministry of Health admitted the figures after stories last week claimed 15 women were sent from Ontario and 30 from Quebec. The new information shows that each abortion costs taxpayers an average of $7000.00.

Message edited by author 2004-11-10 20:40:37.

11/10/2004 08:48:22 PM · #285

This is ridiculous. Ron and anyone else, its none of your damn business what a woman who lives a thousand miles away from you does with her body.

The fact that this was an issue in this years election goes to show how ignorant and misguided most Americans are. This is a NON ISSUE compared to what is going on in our country and the world.

Pathetic and stupid this whole premise is.

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

11/10/2004 08:56:39 PM · #286

Originally posted by MadMordegon:

I've heard it said ( I didn't make this up ), that the reason the Democrats have been losing more and more elections is because for the last thirty years they have been systematically murdering millions of their potential voters while they are still in the womb. Evangelicals do not murder their babies - they let them grow up to vote Republican. :-)

ScottK

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

11/10/2004 09:26:16 PM · #287

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by MadMordegon:
This is ridiculous. Ron and anyone else, its none of your damn business what a woman who lives a thousand miles away from you does with her body.

The fact that this was an issue in this years election goes to show how ignorant and misguided most Americans are. This is a NON ISSUE compared to what is going on in our country and the world.

Pathetic and stupid this whole premise is.

I've heard it said ( I didn't make this up ), that the reason the Democrats have been losing more and more elections is because for the last thirty years they have been systematically murdering millions of their potential voters while they are still in the womb. Evangelicals do not murder their babies - they let them grow up to vote Republican. :-)

I've also heard it put forward that a significant contributor to the pending crisis in the Social Security system is the fact that, over the last 30 years, some 40 million potentially productive and tax paying citizens have been eliminated from our society. (The number is probably higher by now.)

Judith Polakoff

Nikon D7000

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

11/10/2004 09:27:55 PM · #288

Well, I couldn't get back to answer some of paganini's rant earlier, and I see some others have answered him already. I was going to also make the point that mental illness is not a legal bar to marriage. Furthermore, paganini has several times asserted that allowing same-sex marriage would somehow infringe on his "rights" although he has never explained this statement. What rights or liberties of yours, paganini, would be infringed?

Additionally, Martin Luther King used religion as a tool AGAINST oppression, whilst you and the moralists on the far right use it as a tool OF oppression.

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

11/10/2004 09:30:03 PM · #289

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Additionally, Martin Luther King used religion as a tool AGAINST oppression, whilst you and the moralists on the far right use it as a tool OF oppression.

Indeed/Agreed.

ScottK

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

11/10/2004 09:34:33 PM · #290

Originally posted by MadMordegon:

This is ridiculous. Ron and anyone else, its none of your damn business what a woman who lives a thousand miles away from you does with her body.

So I guess it was none of any abolitionist's business what slave owners did with their private property - slaves. It was none of the world's business what Hitler did to the Jews. It's none of our business when genocide occurs in the Balkans, in Africa, or anywhere else that's thousands of miles away.

I don't agree. Murder is murder, and its society's business.

Originally posted by MadMordegon:

The fact that this was an issue in this years election goes to show how ignorant and misguided most Americans are. This is a NON ISSUE compared to what is going on in our country and the world.

Pathetic and stupid this whole premise is.

Nice grammer, Yoda. :) But, I don't understand why this hate speech is tolerated.

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

11/10/2004 09:38:58 PM · #291

Scott, as usual in this argument people of your opinion often compare abortion to things like genocide, murder, slavery or other completely out of context issues.

Please stop, it dumbs the argument down.

Judith Polakoff

Nikon D7000

11/10/2004 09:41:00 PM · #292

According to the latest polls I've seen, nearly 70 percent of Americans support legalized abortion.

Also according to recent polls I've seen, about one-third of the population oppose same-sex marriage, one-third support civil unions, and one-third support same-sex marriage.

Message edited by author 2004-11-10 21:42:59.

Canon EOS-60D

Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS

11/11/2004 07:12:37 AM · #293

Originally posted by RonB:

According to a survey conducted by the Alan Guttmacher Institute, "an estimated total of 31 providers performed the procedure 2,200 times in 2000."

A total of 31 providers in the entire country says to me that not many doctors perform the procedure, which is what I was saying (Most abortion providers do not perform late-term abortions). There are FAR more than 31 abortion providers in the country.

Originally posted by RonB:

The head of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers admitted to the New York Times in 1997 that the method is used thousands of times annually, and that "in the vast majority of cases, the procedure is performed on a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along."

According to your own statistic provided, thousands equals 2200 (at least in the year 2000). And again, in MY area, it isn't performed as an elective procedure.

Originally posted by RonB:

The new information shows that each abortion costs taxpayers an average of $7000.00.

in MY area, the cost is not estimated to be nearly that high, usually around $3,000, depending on the length of the pregnancy.

11/11/2004 09:31:32 AM · #294

Originally posted by laurielblack:

Originally posted by RonB:
According to a survey conducted by the Alan Guttmacher Institute, "an estimated total of 31 providers performed the procedure 2,200 times in 2000."

A total of 31 providers in the entire country says to me that not many doctors perform the procedure, which is what I was saying (Most abortion providers do not perform late-term abortions). There are FAR more than 31 abortion providers in the country.

Originally posted by RonB:
The head of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers admitted to the New York Times in 1997 that the method is used thousands of times annually, and that "in the vast majority of cases, the procedure is performed on a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along."

According to your own statistic provided, thousands equals 2200 (at least in the year 2000). And again, in MY area, it isn't performed as an elective procedure.

Originally posted by RonB:
The new information shows that each abortion costs taxpayers an average of $7000.00.

in MY area, the cost is not estimated to be nearly that high, usually around $3,000, depending on the length of the pregnancy.

I guess that it's all relative. To me 31 providers is a LOT, 2,200 is a REAL LOT, ( average late term abortions per provider = around 71 - that's more than one a week, and that was in 2000 )and the point wasn't the cost, it was the number of women being sent to the U.S. to receive late-term abortions - this from Canada, the country that brags about it's national health care.

kevinf

11/11/2004 09:35:24 AM · #295

(I don't know how to do that quote post thing all of the rest of you are doing.)

"I've heard it said ( I didn't make this up ), that the reason the Democrats have been losing more and more elections is because for the last thirty years they have been systematically murdering millions of their potential voters while they are still in the womb. Evangelicals do not murder their babies - they let them grow up to vote Republican. :-) "

-That's why an overwhelming majority of 18 - 24 year olds voted Kerry.

"I've also heard it put forward that a significant contributor to the pending crisis in the Social Security system is the fact that, over the last 30 years, some 40 million potentially productive and tax paying citizens have been eliminated from our society. (The number is probably higher by now.)"

-Social Security is in crisis because first of all it was never meant to support anyone. When it was instituted the eligible age was 65 and the life expectancy was 60. Second, baby boomers are all retiring and putting too much of a strain on it.

"Nice grammer, Yoda. :) "

-Umm, actually it's spelled grammar and I'm not pointing that out to make fun but to show how stupid it is to put someone down for this type of mistake. It happens to all of us, especially in a forum.

"It was the Republican that overthrew slavery, under a REpublican called Lincoln. The 'liberal and progressive' Democrats at that time were the slave owners. Don't twist facts around, OK? "

- I never used the Republican and Democrate lables. I'm fully aware Lincoln was Republican as was Jefferson who was so vocal against Christianity. But if you can't see under our current understanding of conservatism and liberalism that a move from the white men, slave owning, aristocrates to the feminism and civil rights we have now is a move from conservative to liberal then you are being ignorant.

"Liberalism is nothing more than corruption of the human soul."

-Only a 'Christian' could call upholding a person's legal human rights a corruption of the soul. I feel sorry for you and your perversion.

11/11/2004 10:47:40 AM · #296

Originally posted by kevinf:

(I don't know how to do that quote post thing all of the rest of you are doing.)

Originally posted by RonB:
"I've heard it said ( I didn't make this up ), that the reason the Democrats have been losing more and more elections is because for the last thirty years they have been systematically murdering millions of their potential voters while they are still in the womb. Evangelicals do not murder their babies - they let them grow up to vote Republican. :-) "

-That's why an overwhelming majority of 18 - 24 year olds voted Kerry.

Actually it was a majority of 18-29 year-olds. But they only comprise 17% of those who voted compared to those 60 and older, who comprise 24% of those who voted, and THEY voted almost exactly the opposite - thus nullifying the youth vote. If not for abortion, the number of young voters MIGHT have been much higher ( say 19 MILLION more ).

Originally posted by kevinf:

Originally posted by ScottK:
"I've also heard it put forward that a significant contributor to the pending crisis in the Social Security system is the fact that, over the last 30 years, some 40 million potentially productive and tax paying citizens have been eliminated from our society. (The number is probably higher by now.)"

-Social Security is in crisis because first of all it was never meant to support anyone. When it was instituted the eligible age was 65 and the life expectancy was 60. Second, baby boomers are all retiring and putting too much of a strain on it.

Hmmm. First, what your're saying is that Social Security was a liberal scam to take people's money with no intent of giving most of it back from the very beginning. I guess that's why liberals are so oppposed to any attempt to privatize any part of it.
Second, part of the strain is that we're missing the social security payments from over 19 MILLION who would be entering the workplace now, if they hadn't been aborted.

Originally posted by kevinf:

"Nice grammer, Yoda. :) "

-Umm, actually it's spelled grammar and I'm not pointing that out to make fun but to show how stupid it is to put someone down for this type of mistake. It happens to all of us, especially in a forum.

"It was the Republican that overthrew slavery, under a REpublican called Lincoln. The 'liberal and progressive' Democrats at that time were the slave owners. Don't twist facts around, OK? "

- I never used the Republican and Democrate lables. I'm fully aware Lincoln was Republican as was Jefferson who was so vocal against Christianity. But if you can't see under our current understanding of conservatism and liberalism that a move from the white men, slave owning, aristocrates to the feminism and civil rights we have now is a move from conservative to liberal then you are being ignorant.

"Liberalism is nothing more than corruption of the human soul."

-Only a 'Christian' could call upholding a person's legal human rights a corruption of the soul. I feel sorry for you and your perversion.

Excuse me, but am I correctly interpreting that you just said that Christianity is a perversion? It seems that way no matter how I read that last entry. Could you please clarify that for me?

Message edited by author 2004-11-11 10:48:11.

kevinf

11/11/2004 11:12:22 AM · #297

I can't argue whether or not an aborted fetus would have grown up to vote Kerry. That path of discussion ridiculous. My point was that the youth vote went for Kerry which doesn't bode well for Republicans.

And my point about Social Security is that when it was instituted it was not meant or rather, designed to handle the mass number it is expected to now. Relying on it for retirement is a mistake. And again - conjecturing whether or not it would be more reliable now had people not chosen to abort their fetus is another ridiculous path of discussion. If you want to believe Social Security could have been enough for your retirement had other things in history occured, fine. But I'm going to contribute to my 403b (as a first step) and deal with reality as it is now.

My statement made about Christianity was that using it and the Church as a tool of opression is as much a perversion as a terorist using religion to justify their crimes.

11/11/2004 11:50:15 AM · #298

Originally posted by kevinf:

I can't argue whether or not an aborted fetus would have grown up to vote Kerry. That path of discussion ridiculous. My point was that the youth vote went for Kerry which doesn't bode well for Republicans.[quote]
They didn't turn out as heavily as hoped for - maybe next time. But then again, the Democrats pushed very hard for voter turnout this time, and were very successful - just not as successful as were the Republicans, who also got a greater turnout.

[quote=kevinf]And my point about Social Security is that when it was instituted it was not meant or rather, designed to handle the mass number it is expected to now. Relying on it for retirement is a mistake. And again - conjecturing whether or not it would be more reliable now had people not chosen to abort their fetus is another ridiculous path of discussion. If you want to believe Social Security could have been enough for your retirement had other things in history occured, fine. But I'm going to contribute to my 403b (as a first step) and deal with reality as it is now.

I can't change the past. I know that I can't retire and live on Social Security. I'm putting as much in my 401(k) as the law permits.

Originally posted by kevinf:

My statement made about Christianity was that using it and the Church as a tool of opression is as much a perversion as a terorist using religion to justify their crimes.

Thanks for the clarification. I agree.

11/11/2004 04:08:52 PM · #299

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by kevinf:
My statement made about Christianity was that using it and the Church as a tool of opression is as much a perversion as a terorist using religion to justify their crimes.

Thanks for the clarification. I agree.

Me too. That includes mental oppression; which I chalk this election up to.