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 04/29/2005 03:37:41 PM · #26
Hand over the photo with a copy of the Creative Commons licence (also include a digital version on the CD or DVD)

//creativecommons.org/
 04/29/2005 03:40:28 PM · #27
sorry not to have time to read through all this, and apologies for repeating anything anyone else has said, but this really is a no brainer.

if you are on the company dime, it is their stuff. if you are in a blue collar position, you might have recourse for unpaid overtime. if you are in a white collar position, unpaid overtime is part of the job (with very, very, very few exceptions).

if you go into a project anticipating needing a lot of time, then you talk to the boss about how to handle it before you get started. in a white collar position, this typically means negotiating for days off, vacation, etc.

as to rights to the images and getting credit for them, that too, is something to establish ahead of time.

you can make the most of introductions, networking opportunities, and experiences, but work product is not yours, unless you specifically contract it ahead of time.

and, as far as it goes, you have to decide how much you need your current employer and any future references before you decide to play tough over things like this. pick your battles wisely...
 04/29/2005 03:44:54 PM · #28
Keep the really good ones for yourself & let them have copies of the rest. They'll never know the difference if you don't tell them.
 04/29/2005 03:46:21 PM · #29
Originally posted by sage:
are you going to compensate them for the work hours you spent taking those photos?


Originally posted by sage:
If your company was the one putting on the seminar, and you were an employee of that company and taking pictures... at that point are you really the "unofficial" official photographer?


So which is it? Was I taking photos for me or them? In your own post (in the two quotes above) you highlight the quandary I'm in.

Originally posted by sage:
I don't see what the big deal is. It isn't like you were taking photos of a groundbreaking event, or a celebrity screwup that is going to be sold for thousands of dollars to a tabloid. It was a seminar!


The photos obviously are of value to the company, otherwise we wouldn't even be having this discussion. And that is the case with any client- the final product is going to be of very high value to them, regardless of the worth to the rest of the world. My time and effort in taking and processing those photos is worth something to me and to them. I was paid to be there as a seminar attendee. I attended the seminar, I took notes, I learned new things. I got out of it the same thing every other attendee did and would have been there whether I owned a camera or not. I do own a camera and happen to be somewhat decent at using it, so I also happened to take photos at the event, and during breaks, and by specific request. I was not given additional compensation or consideration to do so. And I've already handed over a number of the more important photos, with no questions asked. Now they want ALL of them. This is the "big deal", as you state. It is an unusual situation.

Originally posted by sage:
They agreed to let you take those photos on company time, and probably did so under the assumption that you would provide them with the photos.


Why would that be the assumption, any more than me assuming that I'd receive additional compensation?

Originally posted by sage:
Sounds like you got bigger issues with your employer than just this. Maybe you should just find a new job.


I'd like to know what prompted this comment.

Message edited by author 2005-04-29 15:47:51.
 04/29/2005 03:49:49 PM · #30
Have you asked him why he wants them? Unless you have a model release from Diana Degarmo I believe the images can only be used for editorial release anyways. I'm not an expert so dont quote me on that.

I was a volunteer photographer for a non-profit organisation. They asked for photographs that I took while not volunteering. I saw it as an opportunity to get more notice and maybe have things go from there. The images were used in a banner that I never got to see. Several months later I got a membership form to join the organization, which is also sent out to about 50k people and two of my images were used on it with no credit. Who knows how else they are being used. I also havent heard from them since.

It's a sad state of affairs but he he has a proven track record of screwing you over then dont do him any favors. Ask him why, tell him how it is, and see what he says.
 04/29/2005 03:51:16 PM · #31
being good with a camera and having one handy puts you in just as bad a situation as a doctor or lawyer at a cocktail party...everybody expects you to do peform professional services for free. the only way to ever get paid is to make arrangements ahead of time.

Originally posted by aronya1:
Keep the really good ones for yourself & let them have copies of the rest. They'll never know the difference if you don't tell them.

you gotta be kidding, otherwise i'd question your sense of ethics...
 04/29/2005 03:53:19 PM · #32
He did say there was one specific image he needed, of his department heads with an industry muckety muck. So my guess is that one will be printed- the others it sounds like he wants just so he doesn't have to keep asking!

(edit cause I can't spell "muckety")

Message edited by author 2005-04-29 15:54:06.
 04/29/2005 03:57:50 PM · #33
Originally posted by ahaze:
He did say there was one specific image he needed, of his department heads with an industry muckety muck. So my guess is that one will be printed- the others it sounds like he wants just so he doesn't have to keep asking!

(edit cause I can't spell "muckety")

depending on your relationship with your boss, if you want to keep it friendly, look him in the eye and tell him you want to help him, it is a bit of work, that it has been a bit of work, and ask him what is it worth to him, or what can he do for you?

you have a couple options, andi. fight with him, or give it up and learn from the situation, or maybe find some middle ground. you just need to decide what you want out of this, and whether the payoff is going to be worth the effort. and, as moody pointed out, you can't sell the images anywhere without a model release. at best, you can use them to showcase your abilities. it seems that the ball is in your court...
 04/29/2005 04:03:02 PM · #34
OK. I went back & reread the original post. I'd like to recall my post. The company would have a very strong case that the images belong to them, unless you specified when you asked permission that you would be shooting for your own benefit. Company time, company (paid?) seminar. You wouldn't have had the opportunity otherwise, etc. Give them what they want & ask for credit. Then don't bring your camera to future functions unless you are hired to do so. You've already set the precedent that you will provide professional quality photos for free, and it will be hard to wiggle out of the expectation that you will continue to do the same in the future.

Message edited by author 2005-04-29 16:03:44.
 04/29/2005 04:07:14 PM · #35
Interesting. JUST received this from the supervisor in question (regarding the photo of dep't and mukety muck):

Andi

I need this and all at 300dpi
Can you help me
I need to send off to trade pub today
I̢۪ll make sure you get credits

It would appear he is at least slightly aware of my concerns, on some level, even though it hasn't even been discussed.

Edit: The emails keep coming! Another just in:

If you would email me that one we talked about at 300 and real good ones of me on stage or great moment pics

Only need a hand full to be emailed so I can get to him ASAP

But if you can dup off a CD for me and bring in Monday that would be great

Guess I'd better see if that DVD is any good or not when I get home tonight....

Message edited by author 2005-04-29 16:08:52.
 04/29/2005 04:08:26 PM · #36
Is he a DPC member?
 04/29/2005 04:09:27 PM · #37
Originally posted by aronya1:
Is he a DPC member?


8-O
 04/29/2005 04:22:52 PM · #38
I would voice my concerns in as judicious a manner as possible and call this one a learning experience. But I do think you need to be forthright to some degree with your boss otherwise you'll keep getting walked over.
 04/29/2005 04:23:41 PM · #39
Hey Andi,

I run into this with riends & at my job ALL the time. It's wack! It doesn't matter if you were at a seminar , at work or anything else. You took those shots & resizing them to 300 dpi & making edits take a lot of time. Your time. I would ask the boss to be paid to do so bc it isnt your job to be taking fotos & editing them for the company. The worst that can happen is that he says no. At the very least, he should allow you to work on the fotos,if you choose to do so, at work instead of on your personal time.

Peeps with power suck! Good luck with whatevery end up deciding!
 04/29/2005 04:26:30 PM · #40
If you were paid by your company to work there then you should provide the pictures to the company,but make sure you watermark them with all your info so it can only be used if they pay you more for your photographic services.

If you were on your own time, then anything goes.

Message edited by author 2005-04-29 16:28:13.
 04/29/2005 04:48:23 PM · #41
Thanks all for your suggestions. I'm glad I registered andihazelwood.com, it means I can get my name and website on there all in one fell swoop ;0
 04/29/2005 05:10:49 PM · #42
[deleted] corporate slime bags. Why I oughta...

But this is not the time for bitterness, but answers. And here is my two-step say-so -

1) The company may have the right to say they photos are theirs because you were there on company time. But I doubt they have the right to your editing time. So give them your photos, but only the original, non-edited versions. If they want the good shit, they pay, plain and simple.

2) Before handing over the unedited shots clearly mark each and every one of them as copyrighted by you. I am not advocating that you deface or obscure important parts of the photos - that would actually be shooting yourself in the foot. But you took them and they are your photos. Let the world know. Besides, this might let you retain rights to the photos after they steal them and you have to take them to court for copyright infringement.

Oh, and let me add a step three here -

3) I am not a lawyer, so I am really qualified to advise you on only one thing - spend a consultation fee and present your concerns to a lawyer. S/He can advise you on what to do this time and what to do next time. S/He can also tell you how to keep for being intimidated into relinquishing your rights on this set of photos.

Now if you'll pardon me, it's time for me to get back to my radical agenda...

Message edited by mk - edited for language.
 04/29/2005 05:12:49 PM · #43
Wow, man! She likes me... See the look she's given me? I am so dope!

Originally posted by ahaze:


And I got a lot of good photos at this thing, we ain't just talkin' snapshots here!! :D

04/29/2005 05:15:12 PM · #44
...

Message edited by author 2014-08-22 18:01:15.
 04/29/2005 05:18:21 PM · #45
Good Point, but it may still be worth your time to consult a lawyer on this. It will give you leverage so that your boss can't just walk all over you.

Originally posted by ahaze:
Originally posted by mikasi:
So give them your photos, but only the original, non-edited versions. If they want the good shit, they pay, plain and simple.


I think I'd much rather *my* rendition of the photos go out there. The last thing I want is to hand over my soft, in some cases noisy, unprocessed originals and have someone "unqualified" do an awful edit job on them and have them printed with my name on them, looking like crud. I'd much prefer my name be associated with something I know I can be proud of.

04/29/2005 05:26:26 PM · #46
While you're at it, visit my two favorite links for helping with copyright matters:
US Copyright Office: pretty much all the manuals and publications are available for free download as PDF documents.

Nolo Press: Legal books for ordinary people to help you understand the law and participate in or do your own legal work. They have a whole section of products on copyright.

In particular, you need to carefully read the sections on "work for hire" guidelines. Factors which will influence the outcome:

-Did you pay your own way to the seminar (transportation, not necessarily the seminar fee)

-Who exactly asked you to take photos, and when

-Were you free to leave the premises during the break(s), and did you only take pictures during the breaks (presumably the rest of the time you were paying attention and taking notes on the seminar).

Personally, I'd probably give him the pictures this time, with a request for a credit every time they're used, and the right to use them yourself -- preferably unrestricted use but at least for your own promotional use; get it in writing.

Next time, have an advance agreement covering all aspects of ownership and use, or graciously decline to take the photos since it's not part of your job description.

You could also give him only the raw captures -- no reason for them to get the benefit of your editing time for free -- you definitely own the edited (derivative) versions ... I see you don't prefer this choice : )

Message edited by author 2005-04-29 17:27:53.
 04/29/2005 05:37:29 PM · #47
Originally posted by sage:
Sounds like you got bigger issues with your employer than just this. Maybe you should just find a new job.


Originally posted by ahaze:
I'd like to know what prompted this comment.


I ask because if you work for a company where you are happy and comfortable, providing them with photos you took on their dime wouldn't typically be a problem. This discussion wouldn't be happening.

What is the problem in giving them the originals? They didn't ask for you to spend hours doing post production... you did that because you wanted to. If you have a problem with the originals not being suitable... quit your whining, suck it up, and hand over the post production versions.

My job function at my current job is not as a photographer. But I have contributed above and beyond my job function by providing photos I took at events and shows on occasion just to help out.

What kind of seminar is worth all this debating? Potentially risking your relationship with your employer over a few photos of a boring seminar? Or has taking photos of an American Idol reject gone to your head?

It is not as if National Geographic has runoff and published your work without contacting you.

The bottom line is it is too late to try and draw up some sort of contract or agreement as to use. You should have done so beforehand. Quit your whining and consider it a lesson learned.

Message edited by author 2005-04-29 17:46:20.
 04/29/2005 05:50:20 PM · #48
Originally posted by sage:
Or has taking photos of an American Idol reject gone to your head?

Quit your whining and consider it a lesson learned.


Thanks for your helpful and well considered response, Sage. You'll be a wonderful addition to the DPC family when you start offering your advice and suggestions to the group on a wider basis, and I know all will benefit from your wisdom.

When will we have the privilege of viewing some of your work?

Message edited by author 2005-04-29 17:51:35.
 04/29/2005 08:57:15 PM · #49
Originally posted by ahaze:
Some of you may recall a couple months ago my company sent me to a 3 day seminar- there were some industry bigwigs there, as well as Diana Degarmo from American Idol providing entertainment. I asked my supervisor, who also happens to be the guy running the seminar, if I could shoot during the seminar. He said please do.

While there I became the official unofficial shooter, being asked to take specific photos for specific purposes, etc. I even gave my supervisor full-size processed files of the main portraits for use in future seminars.

Yesterday he asked me (actually it wasn't really a request- it was, "hey, I need from you....") to give him ALL the photos I took, at 300 DPI, on a CD. I'm a bit shocked and feel a little uncomfortable about this. I've already done quite a bit for him/them- now he wants me to just hand over everything I did, with no compensation? I'm not paid to be a photographer at my job, I attended the seminar as an employee and I was there to learn (which I did), taking photos was a bonus for me and an unexpected perk for them.

I recently backed up all my photos to DVD and I'm now finding that many of the files are corrupt, so this may end up being a moot point- I haven't checked the seminar photos yet. But in the event they're all whole, how should I handle this?

Edited to add: I took several hundred photos in the course of the seminar.


The problem here you did not mention that there was a charge for the work you did before going into this. They may of said no if you wanted compensation. You can on the other hand, say you did not get wavers from all the objects photographed, therefore, can not give them to anyone, even for free, without said wavers being signed.
 04/29/2005 09:33:32 PM · #50
My boss regularly checks out my blog (when I update it) and my portfolio, sometimes he even comments on posts I have made in forums just like this thread I am contributing to right now.

Very simply.
Burn the CD with copywrite notices/watermarks on each image. Place on it a notification that you recognize that you do not have waivers for any of the models and as such cannot be held liable for any use that the company takes with the shots without express permission of any 'celebrities' or 'non-celebrities' - Then sit your boss down and tell him flat out that you were prepared to give him the few shots that seemed company oriented for private use within the corporation, but that you did not expect that he would be asking for all of the photos for use as 'they' (the corporation) sees fit to use.

Let him know that you take pictures for pleasure and to learn and that often, you even get paid for the service of being a professional photographer. That said, you should then let him know you expect to retain all rights to any photos and that you would have to be consulted before they publish anything as there are legal ramifications for publishing say an 'idol's' pic without a release. Since you were unaware of his expectations for your services beyond your written job description, it is probably a good time to discuss how in the future they can compensate you for your additional efforts to the company's image and support you by obtaining releases or supplying legal support in any areas where people have been photographed.

Your knowledge that they plan to publish images that have no releases will save them a lot of money when someone comes knocking and it will serve as a good way for you to open a discussion about how they can't just have your photos to do with as they please.

Regardless of your being paid to be at the seminar and learn, they were not paying you to shoot photos, you asked if you could. There was no contractual expectation that your activites were in any way a paid-for-hire scenario. Call that lawyer. I'm sure they will agree.


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