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07/06/2005 10:00:59 PM · #126 |
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
The truth of the matter is that the heavy overload of entries is certain to affect and defeat the purpose of the challenges.
..
I feel bad for the many good images which are certain to die because they are in the heart of 400-500 entries. So what started as a pleasurable experience has now turned into a nightmare. |
I agree 100%
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
Some time ago I subscribed to the idea of a creating a random division into two camps. You enter an image in your own camp but you are not allowed to vote in it. You vote on the images of the other camp. |
This is the most practical solution I've seen so far.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Maybe this is a self-regulating problem, too. If the challenges get too big, some people won't enter, and they'll get smaller. I see this as kind of like the problem of freeways ... when the commute gets too slow, some people don't go to work or change their hours or something. |
The only sad part of this 'solution' would be that some good photographers would simply stop submitting. Inaction might not always be the best solution.
How about polling all users with a few choices?
1. More Challenges / no restrictions
2. Two Open Challenges / Vote on one - submit in another
3. Do nothing, current system is just fine.
4. something else
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07/06/2005 10:08:53 PM · #127 |
Originally posted by Alienyst:
I really don't get this idea of too many entries so I can't vote on them all. You have a whole week to vote on them. Nowhere does it say you have to do them all at once. Everyone seems to have enough time to post multiple times in the forums throughout the week. As far as I am concerned, there is no excuse other than laziness/just don't care. Just my opinion. |
LAZY!!! Look, I have three kids and two jobs. I AM NOT LAZY!!!!!! |
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07/06/2005 10:10:17 PM · #128 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Why not just split the basic rules challenge into member and non-member? Same topic but only members can enter the member group and only non-members can enter the non-member group. Members could vote on both groups, non-members could vote only on the non-member group. Perk of membership and all...
Members would still have 2 challenges per week, non-members would still have one.
d |
I really, really like this idea- it's simple and everyone wins!
As for voting on 20% only, I was not long ago 'pounced' on in a thread when I mentioned that sometimes I only had time to vote on 20%...I was told it wasn't in the spirit of DPC, that fairness meant it had to be 100% or nothing and I was a bad, bad person...
I agree with graphicfunk...after voting on 50-60% of 500+ even with breaks, you become numb to the subject and numb to the images. The metal challenge became a catalogue of every metal object on the planet...I began to forget about photography, I had to keep reminding myself. Add to that the need to make comments and it is a huge task...Great some are up to that challenge - but not all - I want to appreciate the images, but suddenly the pleasure has gone.
When I first came across Dustdevil's attitude about no longer entering,I thought it was strange. Today I understand it. So I too am not entering for a while...no great loss to DPC, I'm sure. |
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07/06/2005 10:23:56 PM · #129 |
Originally posted by fotolady:
LAZY!!! Look, I have three kids and two jobs. I AM NOT LAZY!!!!!! |
And I have three jobs, a business and two kids. So what? You have enough time to sit here and read and post to the forums, why not spend that time voting/commenting instead of starting threads complaining? |
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07/06/2005 10:24:03 PM · #130 |
Forgot to say, too many people seem to dismiss all these good suggestions with "this comes up everytime there's a challenge with 400+ entries, and then dies down". However, given the number of such threads popping up lately, maybe, just maybe, something should be done about it?
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07/06/2005 10:25:38 PM · #131 |
Originally posted by Alienyst:
Originally posted by fotolady:
LAZY!!! Look, I have three kids and two jobs. I AM NOT LAZY!!!!!! |
And I have three jobs, a business and two kids. So what? You have enough time to sit here and read and post to the forums, why not spend that time voting/commenting instead of starting threads complaining? |
That's harsh, man. She sees a perceived problem and opens it for discussion. Not the first to perceive the problem, and surely not the last. No need to rip her apart for it, is there?
Robt.
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07/06/2005 10:26:15 PM · #132 |
Originally posted by amber:
... When I first came across Dustdevil's attitude about no longer entering,I thought it was strange. Today I understand it. So I too am not entering for a while...no great loss to DPC, I'm sure. |
I wouldn't go so far as to say "no loss to dpc". But this seems to support GeneralE's theory that the size of challenges is self-regulating.
I am not at all bothered by large challenges. I tend to resent the way some people make it out to be an enormous problem when, IMHO, it really is a statement in support of the dpc concept. If you have large numbers of people saying by their entering that they want to participate, how can you construe that as an urgent call for change?
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07/06/2005 10:30:08 PM · #133 |
I see no reason to decrease the number of entries. Do not feel like you have to vote on all images, they will all get enough votes anyway. I don't like the idea of being forced to comment, you will not get so many respectable comments in a system where you're being forced to do them. Nothing is broken, don't fix it.
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07/06/2005 10:32:57 PM · #134 |
Originally posted by Alienyst:
Originally posted by fotolady:
LAZY!!! Look, I have three kids and two jobs. I AM NOT LAZY!!!!!! |
And I have three jobs, a business and two kids. So what? You have enough time to sit here and read and post to the forums, why not spend that time voting/commenting instead of starting threads complaining? |
This 'why are you reading threads when you could be voting' is the most obvious sign that something is really wrong here. Mandy is FREE to choose how she spends her time here. The fact that you think she should be hand-cuffed to the voting button, rather than expressing her opinions in the forum shows that things have gone to far. ADD to that the fact that you can compare your life to hers and make a judgement that she is LAZY?!!! Hats off to you ALienyst- you are clearly a superman!!!
Message edited by author 2005-07-06 22:44:57. |
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07/06/2005 10:57:20 PM · #135 |
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
The truth of the matter is that the heavy overload of entries is certain to affect and defeat the purpose of the challenges. |
This, and bear-music's comment about two-tier voting, really bother me, because I think it's based on a completely mistaken notion of the purpose of the challenges and the site overall.
The purpose of the site is to help people help each other become better photographers, through a system of assigned topics and mutual feedback. The purpose is not to determine the "best" of a pool of photos as efficiently as possible.
The challenges and the ribbons and all are just a mechanism for achieving this feedback, and we could just as easily have a system without voting and rankings and all -- this just happens to be the vehicle chosen. The challenges do not have to function "effectively" (in terms of determining winning photos) to be effective at stimulating the creative efforts of photographers. |
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07/06/2005 11:03:50 PM · #136 |
err.... not trying to be a pain in the arse, but... i think there isnt enough challenges to keep me occupied here, lol. 1 challenge per week isnt enough. Even with 500 entries, I would be done voting and commenting in 2-3 days tops, so that leaves me with nothing to do besides flooding the forums with nonsense such as this *ahem*
muahahaha, i'm such a bastard XD |
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07/06/2005 11:06:14 PM · #137 |
Originally posted by shadow:
err.... not trying to be a pain in the arse, but... i think there isnt enough challenges to keep me occupied here, lol. 1 challenge per week isnt enough. Even with 500 entries, I would be done voting and commenting in 2-3 days tops, so that leaves me with nothing to do besides flooding the forums with nonsense such as this *ahem*
muahahaha, i'm such a bastard XD |
I tend to agree that the site is slow paced much of the time.
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07/06/2005 11:07:54 PM · #138 |
How about two themes/topic/challenges instead of one. You can choose which ONE, only one, to participate in. The voting is up to each individual as long as he/she covers the 20% vote margin (he/she can vote in one or both themes).
Must say it saddens me to see how easily a thread can turn into a fight.... no need for that. |
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07/06/2005 11:09:29 PM · #139 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
The truth of the matter is that the heavy overload of entries is certain to affect and defeat the purpose of the challenges. |
This, and bear-music's comment about two-tier voting, really bother me, because I think it's based on a completely mistaken notion of the purpose of the challenges and the site overall.
The purpose of the site is to help people help each other become better photographers, through a system of assigned topics and mutual feedback. The purpose is not to determine the "best" of a pool of photos as efficiently as possible.
The challenges and the ribbons and all are just a mechanism for achieving this feedback, and we could just as easily have a system without voting and rankings and all -- this just happens to be the vehicle chosen. The challenges do not have to function "effectively" (in terms of determining winning photos) to be effective at stimulating the creative efforts of photographers. |
A heavy overload of entries in the challenges is also negatively affecting exactly what you are talking about here GeneralE. with 500 - 600 entries, people just plain get tired and bored of it all. The comments get less and less constructive and effective, the number of people that truly wish to put time and energy into helping others gets watered down by people that are simply here to throw photos in for validation reasons.. and general chaos ensues. Yeah, I'm exaggerating a little.. but not much. I see it in the forum topics and the comments I'm reading and the lack of commenting outside of challenges. (comments on non-challenge entries can sometimes go for more than an hour between.. and that's a little silly with the number of people on here). Yah, I'm not the biggest one to talk.. but I'm a good example of what I'm trying to explain here. I'm tired and burned out myself. I like a lot of these suggestions about tiered systems, and other methods of controlling the number of entries for individual challenges. I think it's an important and worthwhile thing to look into.. to try for awhile. It certainly couldn't *hurt*. However, there seems to be a very strong and vocal opposition to any kind of change whatsoever, and I just don't understand it. I also don't understand anyone that can truly say that they don't mind seeing almost 600 entries in a challenge, and watching as time and time again, quality photographs are being destroyed by voting that just ends up being part of a, "man, I'm tired of this, everything's a 4 now" mentality.
Are the best photos winning? That's really subjective.. and that's not what this is about. What it's about is trying to keep this site a good learning tool.. and it simply cannot remain that way if people are constantly overwhelmed.
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07/06/2005 11:14:02 PM · #140 |
Hi all, I am pretty new to the site and find this discussion quite interesting.
- In looking at my own experience so far, I find that a big part of the 'fun' is seeing how images did in the voting vs. how i voted. so, if i don't vote on all of them, it takes away a lot of that 'fun' after the results come out, especially if ones i didn't vote on did really well.
- if i don't get many comments, the learning goes away. i don't see the point if i don't learn anything.
- obviously people pick images to vote on from thumbnails, if you give out the option, people will do it. that's bad IMO.
so, all said, i LOVE these ideas posted earlier:
1. If you enter you should be required to vote the 20% or be DQ'd. i would add some smaller percentage of comments are required as well.
2. You should only be able to vote on pictures on a random basis. YES! i also think you should be able to look at thumbs when you are done voting. so, when you are done (after at least voting on 20%), click an "i'm done voting" button, get thumbnails and not be allowed to vote anymore. no logging in, logging out.
- i don't think you should do more splitting in terms of members/non-members. i'm not a member now (i was quite excited initially but the lack of feedback is making me wonder) but still might join someday. i want the votes and feedback of members as well as non-members.
- i was intrigued by the idea of having a rookie challenge (5 or below average), member or otherwise, with the requirements noted above.
as a newly registered person here, considering becoming a paid member, i ask you to **please address this issue**. somehow, make smaller challenges in which people actually get some feedback and can vote on all the images (if they want) without going blind :)
Message edited by author 2005-07-06 23:17:52. |
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07/06/2005 11:14:40 PM · #141 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
A heavy overload of entries in the challenges is also negatively affecting exactly what you are talking about here GeneralE. with 500 - 600 entries, people just plain get tired and bored of it all. The comments get less and less constructive and effective, the number of people that truly wish to put time and energy into helping others gets watered down by people that are simply here to throw photos in for validation reasons.. and general chaos ensues. |
I agree with you, but not entirely. While a huge flood of entries can leave voters feeling bored, think of the positive effect it has as well. From the photos submitted, we, as a voter will get to understand what the "general" voter (assuming they also submitted a photo) sees, or how they perceive a particular challenge topic. This may not entirely help with your photography skill, but at least you get to see something thru the eyes of another person. |
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07/06/2005 11:14:52 PM · #142 |
Stopped reading after the first page.
* Split the challenge entries into thirds via coding. (when over ~360 entries are recieved)
* Each 'next' voter gets the same third each time they log in to the site until voting ends.
* The top ten of each 3rd go on to an open voting final round hosted the following week and voted on all registered voters.
* The remainders are then placed according to their original vote from whatever 'third group' they came from.
Just a whacky idea, now back to your regularly scheduled forum ....
Message edited by author 2005-07-06 23:17:03.
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07/06/2005 11:17:49 PM · #143 |
Originally posted by shadow:
Originally posted by Artyste:
A heavy overload of entries in the challenges is also negatively affecting exactly what you are talking about here GeneralE. with 500 - 600 entries, people just plain get tired and bored of it all. The comments get less and less constructive and effective, the number of people that truly wish to put time and energy into helping others gets watered down by people that are simply here to throw photos in for validation reasons.. and general chaos ensues. |
I agree with you, but not entirely. While a huge flood of entries can leave voters feeling bored, think of the positive effect it has as well. From the photos submitted, we, as a voter will get to understand what the "general" voter (assuming they also submitted a photo) sees, or how they perceive a particular challenge topic. This may not entirely help with your photography skill, but at least you get to see something thru the eyes of another person. |
I'd suggest that this could have a much stronger affect were there tiered challenges to select from.. you could view all the challenges, but you'd get a much better feel over 150 or 200 photos than 500. Like I said, I just think it'd be nice to put more energy into constructively trying to work out a system to try.. rather than adamantly refusing it outright.
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07/06/2005 11:21:32 PM · #144 |
Originally posted by Arcanist:
* Split the challenge entries into thirds via coding. (when over ~360 entries are recieved)
* Each 'next' voter gets the same third each time they log in to the site until voting ends.
* The top ten of each 3rd go on to an open voting final round hosted the following week and voted on all registered voters.
* The remainders are then placed according to their original vote from whatever 'third group' they came from. |
I was against the tiered voting, but this is different and i like it. it doesn't kick out a whole batch of people after day 3. |
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07/06/2005 11:30:10 PM · #145 |
Originally posted by autool:
My 2 cents worth.
1. If you enter you should be required to vote the 20% or be DQ'd.
2. You should only be able to vote on pictures on a random basis.
3. The site should sort for a random pick with the picture with the least number of votes coming up first.
Just my opinion of course! |
This sounds like a good start, espically only allowing random voting, eliminating the favortism of cherry-picking.
I also love the idea of mentoring.
anyways, finished voting for the day. Will do some more tomorrow. I am halfway done now! Yippie! But, do need to comment more, 7% comments is just not enough, but I do have 6 more days! |
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07/06/2005 11:31:58 PM · #146 |
| Started to read this......sounds right interesting too, but I can't comment right now.... simply too busy voting on the photos. See you all soon. |
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07/06/2005 11:32:26 PM · #147 |
I'll repeat:
Take away the knowledge of the number of entries in a challenge and the cherry-picking thumbnail views and this problem goes away, IMHO. Lowering the percentage threshold to, say 15%, should mitigate "neverending challenge" syndrome. |
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07/07/2005 10:15:04 AM · #148 |
When I PAID to be a part of this community I was so anxious to get envolved in the challenges and forums and just be a part of everything. I wanted to be a part of a website where I could learn and grow. But any time a member comments or starts a forum about voting or site issues there are some members who feel that they have to resort to name calling. Since I started this thread I have been called lazy, a whinner, a baby, etc. WHAT PURPOSE DOES THAT SERVE? Did your name calling do any good, but hurt my feelings? DID IT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF TO DO THAT? Are you proud of yourself? There are a few members that have posted in this thread who have been complete jerks. Yes I called you a name. But that is because it is the truth.
The reason that I do not like voting on challenges with so many entries is because I want to be able to take the time and really look at the photo. I want to give a fair vote. After looking at so many, I could care less what the picture is at that point. "Oh great, another flower. OOOOHHHHH another rusted tractor." Do you even see my point? I have time to vote on the pictures, but with sooooo many, even stretching it out during the week, it is exhausting!
I think that something needs to be done before they get any higher. Thank you to all that posted something positive in this thread. I am no longer going to post threads or even take part in them. I am all for people having an opinion about me or my photos (negative or positive) but start your own thread. I do not feel encouraged to have an opinion or take part in the forum community any longer. I will enter some challenges but I doubt I will vote. You probably have something mean to say about that too. But like you said yourself, one vote doesn't make a difference anyway right?
Message edited by author 2005-07-07 10:17:28. |
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07/07/2005 10:27:09 AM · #149 |
| At some point, an inconsiderate motorist will get you hopping mad, but that's no reason to abandon your car. Rude commenters are irritating, but they're surprisingly few and far between for such a large web site. Any talk of major changes to DPC brings out passionate (and not always polite) debate. Don't let an inconsiderate few (out of thousands of members) discourage you from participating in every part of the site. |
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07/07/2005 10:30:47 AM · #150 |
Originally posted by fotolady:
When I PAID to be a part of this community I was so anxious to get envolved in the challenges and forums and just be a part of everything. I wanted to be a part of a website where I could learn and grow. But any time a member comments or starts a forum about voting or site issues there are some members who feel that they have to resort to name calling. Since I started this thread I have been called lazy, a whinner, a baby, etc. WHAT PURPOSE DOES THAT SERVE? Did your name calling do any good, but hurt my feelings? DID IT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF TO DO THAT? Are you proud of yourself? There are a few members that have posted in this thread who have been complete jerks. Yes I called you a name. But that is because it is the truth.
The reason that I do not like voting on challenges with so many entries is because I want to be able to take the time and really look at the photo. I want to give a fair vote. After looking at so many, I could care less what the picture is at that point. "Oh great, another flower. OOOOHHHHH another rusted tractor." Do you even see my point? I have time to vote on the pictures, but with sooooo many, even stretching it out during the week, it is exhausting!
I think that something needs to be done before they get any higher. Thank you to all that posted something positive in this thread. I am no longer going to post threads or even take part in them. I am all for people having an opinion about me or my photos (negative or positive) but start your own thread. I do not feel encouraged to have an opinion or take part in the forum community any longer. I will enter some challenges but I doubt I will vote. You probably have something mean to say about that too. But like you said yourself, one vote doesn't make a difference anyway right? |
Mandy, don't let them intimidate you. Everyone has a right to post and have their own opinion. And we have a responsibility to express ideas which can improve the site (ok, maybe that's stretching it, but as a software developer, I know it's important to hear from users).
I know how you feel. One of the reasons I particularly feel strongly and step in when I see people being called "whiners", or other names, for example, is that I don't like the implied message: "Don't Post". I hope the site council in the future will step in directly and try to stop even minor name calling like that, because I don't think a SC member would have been told to "bite" part of someone's anatomy for doing it (whereas I was).
But the best way to address this is to keep posting, not to stop posting your ideas and requests for improvement. In the wake of today's attacks, it's no different than the sentiment "be normal, don't let this change you or they have won."
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