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07/07/2005 08:48:56 PM · #176 |
Originally posted by peterish:
My brief message to Site Council:
It is apparent that huge entry numbers are having adverse effects on the majority of regular participants of this site, ... |
Not so apparent to me, but let's see:
Originally posted by peterish:
including:
-Degradation of comment quality and decrease in constructive feedback |
I am participating in the circles challenge and I have already recieved as many comments as in previous challenges with half the participants. Same quality as well.
Originally posted by peterish:
-Voters throwing most pictures into 5's or 6's... |
This is to be expected. Most pictures I see are of fair to middling quality. Not bad in any obvious way, they just inspire an "eh" response in me. This is true of any sample of any craft, skill, performance, what-have-you. Most participants are of average quality (fives and sixes). Few are awful and few are excellent.
Originally posted by peterish:
-Increased bandwidth usage (from entries and from all these angry forum posts). |
I'm assuming you're being facetious here. 150kb pictures and text are not too much of a drain on bandwidth.
Originally posted by peterish:
The bulk of DPC members would agree [and the rest] |
First, never assume that a large group of people will ever agree on anything.
From reading this thread, the Site Council is listening and responding. I don't believe the >500 entrant challenge is a catastrophe of any proportion, just an opportunity to see more photos. I think of it this way: instead of looking at just the top 10 or 20 photos to learn from, I'll probably be seeing photos in the top 40 or 50 worth studying. It'll be harder to earn a ribbon, but I get to see more examples of what can be done with a camera, which is why I come here.
If I don't see all the pictures during voting, I'll see them on the results page. |
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07/07/2005 08:48:57 PM · #177 |
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
I am sorry, but you missed my point. It is not as shallow as you understood it.
Again: the high number makes learning difficult because each image gets less time. The drive of the challenge is to learn but when images can not receive enough attention for a vote, let alone a comment: hence the challenges suffer. |
Your difficulty is predicated on a commitment of everyone to vote on every photo. I'm saying that it would be better if everyone voted and commented in-depth on a random 25% of the pool, and let the final result be somewhat less "accurate" than if there was 100% voting by everyone. I think it is the feeling of having to vote on all of the entries on order to be "fair" which drives the shallow commenting and low votes based on 3-second views of anything but the most in-your-face interpretations.
Maybe we should make it so no one is ALLOWED to vote on over 200 entries ... then you can feel like you have the time to make 'em count. |
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07/07/2005 09:01:32 PM · #178 |
Originally posted by chesire:
Would you like to explain to me just how looking at something is going to tell me how to fix my own pictures? For Composition perhaps, but that doesn't tell me about dof or apurature or lighting or anything. |
You will learn to recognize that in a similar situation, that you'll need to control your aperture setting, or lighting angles, or something ... by looking at a photo and analyzing what's "wrong" (to you) and what it might take to fix it, you've just answered your own question--you'll be learning who to take better pictures yourself.
Recognizing that (for example) aperture control (or lack thereof) is what's affecting the quality of the photo is an example of "learning" about photography. Looking up or asking what specific setting to use is just technical research, but has little to do with true learning. |
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07/07/2005 09:02:59 PM · #179 |
There's no question that there are alternatives to the addition of more challenges, but I think more challenges would be good for the site anyway.
A number of solutions that preclude having more challenges have been suggested. I'd like to see those included (no thumbnails, compulsory amount of comments per challenge, etc.) and perhaps incorporated into a newer system that includes 4 challenges per week. The 4 challenge system will have 2 challenges available to members only and 2 challenges available to everyone (open challenges). Members would be able to choose to enter one of the open challenges and one of the member challenges while non-paying members would be allowed to enter either one of the two open challenges. This could, as well as easing numbers, mean the all round quality of shots could improve (maybe not technically but conceptually). I think this may happen because, as it stands, DPCers just try to get their entries in on time, often regardless of quality, because it's the only challenge in which they can enter each week! Two topics = two sets of ideas, and with a larger range of ideas from which to choose the chances of seeing original entries increases
These challenges will have to have similar 'desirability' - that is, based on past experiences, the SC will have to choose concurrent topics of similar popularity. For example they should chose the concurrently run open topics of 'Black & White' and 'Macro' as opposed to running 'Pain' and 'Portrait' (everyone would enter the portrait challenge). This could be decided upon by the SC by taking a small sample group (ie: themselves) and voting upon which contest they'd rather enter, if the numbers are similar than the challenges can run concurrently, if not then it's back to the drawing board.
Dual challenges could even be a possiblity - by this I mean that they could concurrently run antonymous challenges like 'Darkness' and 'Light', or synonymous/metonymous challenges such as 'Hope' and 'Glory'.
Personally I don't see WHY anyone would be dead against more challenges. This site will continue to grow as people refer their friends, digital cameras keep selling and this site keeps rocking (unless they want it to become less pleasant and thin out the numbers a bit!) I think it'll be more fun and less monotonous if there are more challenges and it'll help break down the volume into manageable chunks.
Open to suggestions, I thought I'd just clarify my thoughts as much to myself as anyone else. I just can't conceivably see how having 2 hugely anonymous challenges each week is better than more choice and more 'individual attention'.
Alex
PS: Apologies for some badly worded sections, but this was a bit of a mission to compose and I'm too tired to be grammatically precise. Hopefully I've communicated the gist of things.
PPS: Part of this message appears on page 5 but it was mostly ignored, so I thought I'd reiterate because I think I have some valid points.
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07/07/2005 09:09:28 PM · #180 |
Originally posted by peterish:
The SC seem unable or unwilling to give the people a straight answer. Even if no gears are in motion to end this catastrophe, would someone of authority at least let us know why not? |
I would beg to differ ... I've made several posts here, and I believe other SC members have as well. We are (obviously) discussing it.
Do you need further information than that? We don't have a press officer to hold regular briefings or anything ... when there's some change we make an announcement. If the admins (not the SC--we're essentially advisory) decide to poll the membership, a poll will appear on your home page.
In the meantime, it's still my personal opinion that there's no problem if you don't feel obligated to vote on all the photos. Just vote on the 20% minimum plus whatever else you can do before you start getting bored and be done with it. |
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07/07/2005 09:16:44 PM · #181 |
Originally posted by amber:
Thanks, I never seem to tire of hearing I'm wrong;) |
whatever. in the meantime, though, you might want to check out canon's online tutorials. they cover everything from basic to advanced topics.
laurie was also dead-on about shooting, shooting, and shooting. if you work at it, you will teach yourself more than anyone else can. and really, if you are struggling with such basic concepts as depth of field, you should get some books. there are tons of threads here at dpc with book recommendations. |
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07/07/2005 09:17:45 PM · #182 |
If everyone wants to vote on all the photos, then having 4 challenges with 250 entries each is no better than 2 challenges with 500 ...
Those stats below are probably quite skewed because the challenges with lower entries were probably invitationals or some other "special" case which would likely draw more than the usual per capita commenting anyway, not just because they were small. |
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07/07/2005 09:17:52 PM · #183 |
perhaps this post is a bit off of the topic, but then again this thread has gone all over the place.
maybe as an option instead of leaving a witty comment, we could have check boxes where the voters think the photo could use the most improvement.
[ ]dof [ ]composition [ ]focus [ ]sharpness [ ]color [ ]highlights
[ ]no improvement needed
at the end of the challenge people can review what people thought would help the image. in turn, they could then get help, through forums or even tutorials, on improving on the concept in concern. (this may address the problem that too many entries hinders peoples ability to learn from the challenge)
i think it would be a lot easier for me as a voter (and commentor) to check a box rather than leave a comment. not saying that i would stop making comments, but the ones that i dont make comments on i'd surely check a box.
i also think it would be more beneficial if i got less 'nice' comments, and more checkmarks on what the voters think i should improve.
i looked through a few first pages of this thread and a few ending pages, so i don't know if something like this has been mentioned. if it has, mark me down for being in favor of it.
Message edited by author 2005-07-07 21:19:08.
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07/07/2005 09:20:19 PM · #184 |
| It might not be in THIS thread, but it's brought up in SOME thread about every 2-4 months ... : ) |
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07/07/2005 09:21:07 PM · #185 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If everyone wants to vote on all the photos, then having 4 challenges with 250 entries each is no better than 2 challenges with 500 ...
Those stats below are probably quite skewed because the challenges with lower entries were probably invitationals or some other "special" case which would likely draw more than the usual per capita commenting anyway, not just because they were small. |
Unless we want to vote on all the photos, but not in all the challenges. Then we can vote less, and achieve our objectives.
I used to vote all the photos...I don't think I've made it through any of the 400+ or 500+ challenges. That's just too many, if you want to spend a fair amount of time looking at each photo. I'm having trouble making it through the macro challenge as it is. I am only half way through.
Message edited by author 2005-07-07 21:21:48. |
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07/07/2005 09:23:06 PM · #186 |
im gonna go get a pizza... anyone wanna join me?
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07/07/2005 09:23:10 PM · #187 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
In the meantime, it's still my personal opinion that there's no problem if you don't feel obligated to vote on all the photos. Just vote on the 20% minimum plus whatever else you can do before you start getting bored and be done with it. |
Amen! No one ever expected anyone else to vote on every image in a challenge.
One has to ask what the complaint everyone really has. I mean, really, what is the real gripe? Is it that you think your scores don't reflect the quality of your shot and that it's somehow due to the lack attention paid to your shot? Are you tired of voting on so many shots in a challenge? If so, just don't vote on so many. Spend the same amount of time as you always do. I'm just confused what the problem is.
Actually, it's beginning to sound like the folks who feel the need to go through every shot are doing a disservice to themselves and the site. There's no way you can go through that many images and realistically provide constructive comments/good votes. It's not expected and shouldn't be the culture (if you want to call it that) of the site.
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07/07/2005 09:23:54 PM · #188 |
Originally posted by totaldis:
im gonna go get a pizza... anyone wanna join me? |
Make mine canadian bacon and pineapple, please... with extra cheese! ;)
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07/07/2005 09:28:34 PM · #189 |
Originally posted by laurielblack:
Originally posted by totaldis:
im gonna go get a pizza... anyone wanna join me? |
Make mine canadian bacon and pineapple, please... with extra cheese! ;) |
i'm in! i'd like some dof, some oof, and some rotds ;-) |
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07/07/2005 09:32:40 PM · #190 |
Originally posted by skiprow:
Originally posted by amber:
Thanks, I never seem to tire of hearing I'm wrong;) |
whatever. in the meantime, though, you might want to check out canon's online tutorials. they cover everything from basic to advanced topics.
laurie was also dead-on about shooting, shooting, and shooting. if you work at it, you will teach yourself more than anyone else can. and really, if you are struggling with such basic concepts as depth of field, you should get some books. there are tons of threads here at dpc with book recommendations. |
You obviously didn't see my smiley? No problem.
I know about DOF thanks and the rest, I was speaking hypothetically. |
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07/07/2005 09:40:03 PM · #191 |
when we join a community, we should try to make ourself fit in rather than change everyone to fit ourself. all these years, DPChallenge has always been in this way, and I guess if there's anything to improve on, it would be MORE CHALLENGES! :p
actually, maybe alternate between the closing dates for the closed and open challenges, so they are equally apart? This makes membership more attractive to those who wish to spend more time creating nice photos for the challenges. |
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07/07/2005 10:20:01 PM · #192 |
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07/07/2005 10:31:13 PM · #193 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If everyone wants to vote on all the photos, then having 4 challenges with 250 entries each is no better than 2 challenges with 500 |
That's a bit off. Those who said they want to vote on all the photos, were referring to all photos in a given challenge. So 4 with 250 each (as opposed to 2 with 500 each) allows them to pick a challenge, and vote 100%.
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07/07/2005 10:49:12 PM · #194 |
I don't want to sound like an old grump or anything, but I remember the days when people complained about voting on a 150 pics, because at the time we were only voting on 50 or so. Then it was 300 that became too much, and now it's 500. This topic comes up more often than anything so far over the life of the site.
It seems to me that it's more about people not liking their community growning beyond the level at which they first fell in love. |
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07/07/2005 10:51:12 PM · #195 |
Originally posted by shadow:
when we join a community, we should try to make ourself fit in rather than change everyone to fit ourself. all these years, DPChallenge has always been in this way, and I guess if there's anything to improve on, it would be MORE CHALLENGES! |
Ditto! I only joined recently, so I suppose that I'm part of the problem. This site is attractive (I did do my homework - I chose to join & participate here rather than elsewhere, so far) because of many, many factors, primarily the
a) obvious skill of so many participants & the incredible quality of the ribbon winners, and
b) the wit of the users, made manifest in the forums.
However, I'm staying because of the greatly helpful comments I've received, and the learning that I'm doing from voting/commenting.
I really like this site & am learning tons. The first few weeks I voted on almost everything and commented tons; I find that I can't keep up that pace. However, when a challenge is particularly exciting (I LOVE what you guys did with macro), I don't mind seeing more than several hundred entries.
My newbie 2 cents.
[BTW, I like mine with just basil and oregano]
[edited to add pizza order]
Message edited by author 2005-07-07 22:54:39. |
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07/07/2005 11:12:18 PM · #196 |
personally, i do not like only voting on 20% of the images. although i vote on the 1-10 scale, i do vote "on the curve" a little bit, where i'm comparing images in each challenge. i feel that if i don't vote on all of them, i'm not seeing the whole picture (pun intended).
it's frustrating to me to see a challenge rollover and realize that even though i voted i've never seen any of the top 10 images. it's happened more than once and it IS irritating. it's like being a blue voter in a red state (or vice versa) -- you spent the time to do it but it doesn't count.
don't tell me that i'm lazy or that i need to make more time, either. this isn't about that. i feel like i'm not doing my "job" if i don't at least LOOK at all of the entries, even if i don't critically examine each one.
so, for me speaking as a participant of the site and speaking for myself, the large number of images IS becoming an issue. telling me to just vote on 20% is a cop-out. what happens when we have a challenge with 1000 entries? we're rapidly heading there if we don't come up with some other options, and now is a perfectly valid time to discuss it even if nothing changes in the immediate future.
i like some of the solutions that have been proposed here. i don't like others. i have a few ideas but they're mostly variations of what else has been said.
honestly, i don't understand what drives people to think that they HAVE to enter every challenge -- i really think that harms the site way more than it helps because you get a lot of submissions that really have no business being submitted. and those are not the kind of photos that are going to be helped with a thoughtful critique or comment. those were the ones submitted because someone felt they kinda had to.
while it's true that this site is a great resource for learning and i personally have benefitted more than i can imagine, the site name is dpchallenge, not dpcomment and i think many people forget that a lot of the time. there are many other places that are better for critiquing because there's no time limit on it and you're not being presented in a forum with 500 other shots of the same genre.
jeez, i didn't think this would be so long-winded.
in summary:
- i think the number of entries is becoming, if it is not now, an issue
- i prefer to vote on all of the entries in a single challenge than 20% of entries in 5 challenges
- i wish people would stop and think before submitting any old thing to a challenge
- i babble. a lot. |
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07/07/2005 11:26:47 PM · #197 |
I too find it a daunting task to vote for 300+ entries and as for eliminating "bad" photos I don't agree. This is a great online community for beginner photographers all the way through to professional photographers to share ideas, knowledge, tips, hints, tricks, technical information and the like with other photographers.
The way I see the challenges is that this is a way for me personally to learn about my photography. Most of the feed back that I've received on my submissions (which is only 2) has been great. The comments have allowed me to look at my photos differently and see where I could have improved, what I did great and where I went wrong in regards to a final composition.
I think that dpchallenge is a great opportunity to learn through trial and error instead of taking courses on photography which could become costly!
In regards to voting on all pictures... I think that dpchallenge is very generous in only requesting a minimum of 20% votership. I understand that all photos are displayed randomly in the voting process but I feel that it is only fair to vote on all of them. All or nothing is my philosophy. What I do is when I have time I will vote on a few photos and then gradually vote on the rest of the photos as I have time to do so (as the voting time frame is 1 week, there is more than ample time to vote on all photos). I also only give constructive feed back that I feel the photographer will find useful to help improve their technique or get them thinking about how they would view their subject differently the next time.
In the same respect... when submitting a photo... we've all see the quality of good and bad photos, but as they do say, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and "a picture says a thousand words". What may not be a good photo or a "likeable" photo to one person, it will be an amazing photo to someone else. Each and everyone of us has our own artistic style and it is evident in all of the photos submitted. Maybe before submitting a photo we all need to think twice before submitting it or really decide and ask ourselves the question "does my photo really meet the challenge requirements"... which may be something for dpchallenge to think about, because I do find that some of the challenges are a bit vague allowing for a lot of different interpretations. If you've noticed... challenges that are "vague" receive higher submissions than challenges that are more specific. ...Just a thought.
And in regards to the Critique club not commenting with a critique on submissions... I have not received one critique since i've requested them. I understand that a lot of people request critiques and it would be difficult to keep up with all of the requests, but if you are not going to follow through when people are expecting it, don't offer to critique at all! They are only hurting the creditability of the dpchallenge site. Maybe increase your critique committee, but then again... I go back to "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"... there would be a thousand and one suggestions for each photo and i would imagine that it would be hard to critique a photo technically and objectively putting aside your own personal photographic style and not base your critique on "what I would have done is..."
With all of the posts with this forum I do think that this is something that dpchallenge needs to look into so that this site can be the most benificial to all of is members. Which leads to another question... (sorry for my long feedback... lol) What is the percentage of memebers to non-members? I know that there are open challenges for non-members and they cannot take part in any member challenges, but maybe as a member you could only vote on member challenges. I'm assuming that if you are a member, people are taking this site and what it has to offer seriously and that they are not just submitting photos "willy nilly" to see if they will get the blue ribbon.
Just my thoughts... and I know that everyone will have some to say, argue against or agree with. Isn't that the purpose of these forums? Lets see what happens!
Thanks,
Kevin |
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07/07/2005 11:34:22 PM · #198 |
Maybe increase your critique committee,
It's voluntary. I joined, why don't you? |
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07/08/2005 12:12:39 AM · #199 |
All I̢۪m saying is that the site is growing which is a good thing. But like cities, as they grow they must accommodate for the congestion. Sometimes it takes making a two-lane road and four-lane road. Sometimes it means creating more roads. And I think DPC is at that point right now. I̢۪m not saying the site needs an overhaul or even big changes. I just believe that the administrators need to be looking at this issue now for future improvements.
I believe too many entries can do more harm than good. Below are a few examples I believe to be true.
1. To many entries gives voters less time to look over a photograph as good as they should because of time issues before voting.
2. Voting on a percentage of the challenges could obscure the results. We have voters that vote in different ways. Some vote 1-5, 5-10, 1-10, and 3-7. For a percentage to be an accurate way of voting I believe everyone would have to vote on the same scale. How would you like the 1-5 voter randomly getting your picture?
3. I believe that comments are important during a challenge to help show the photographer ways of improving. Spending more time voting you have to give up something, be it commenting or forum posting. Don̢۪t say that forum posting is not a vital part of this site because it is. Without the forums as a way of communication then we are no more than a posting site, not a community.
4. When you have to look through 500 entries or more your artistic judgment becomes numb. It̢۪s like eating your favorite food for a week. Say you love pasta and had it for dinner everyday for a week prepared by a different cook each day. Even though you love the dish as the week goes on you will not find that dish as good as it was the first or second day. And the same can be said about voting. As you go though that many photographs during the week it takes more of a pop or wow factor to vote the way you did at the beginning.
These are just some of my opinions and may not be true to everyone. I like DPC and do my part as well as most everyone here. I believe possible issues should be addressed before they become problems.
Message edited by author 2005-07-08 00:17:54.
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07/08/2005 12:17:57 AM · #200 |
There needs to just be 2 more total challenges per week. Then people won't want to enter every single one, but can pick and choose 1 or 2 of them to enter.
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