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07/10/2005 01:01:56 PM · #1 |
DPC Mentorship ΓΆ€“ Rules of the Road
Group: B&W Photography
Mentor: muckpond
Students: aboutimage, puzzled, sher9204, Kavey, papagei
NON-MEMBERS PLEASE READ, TOO:
1. If you are not an active member of this mentorship group, please feel free to follow this thread. It is not intended to be exclusionary - we hope everyone can learn from it.
2. If you are not an active member of this group but have a question or comment, please send it directly to the moderator by Private Message. The moderator will either answer you directly or post your comment and their response to the thread. Thank you for understanding that we are trying to keep these groups small and on-topic. If this experiment takes off, we plan to start more groups to try to accommodate as many people as we can.
3. Mentors are volunteers with jobs and/or families. They're human too, and may make mistakes on occasion. If you feel the burning need to criticize them, point out a mistake, or point out your own infinately greater knowledge in they subject they are teaching, please do so in a PM to the mentor, not in this thread.
4. Have fun learning!
P.S. To see updated group information, see my profile.
Message edited by author 2005-07-12 16:55:07. |
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07/10/2005 05:29:35 PM · #2 |
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07/10/2005 09:11:10 PM · #3 |
hi!
i promise i will post very soon. i developed a "lesson plan" in my head last night. i'm really excited about our group!
but right now i'm busy trying to figure out how many coats of hot pink paint it will take to make the walls of my kitchen the actual deep red i've chosen. :/
see? black and white is so much easier! i wanna move to pleasantville!
ps -- hi sher! ho-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o! |
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07/11/2005 07:21:22 AM · #4 |
| I would like to join this group as I have just picked up a camera again after quite a few years of not taking any pics. I would love to learn all the little tricks. |
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07/11/2005 07:43:37 AM · #5 |
| so happy to dig into B&W :) |
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07/11/2005 08:53:06 AM · #6 |
ok! we're kind of getting a late start, but that's ok. i really didn't expect this to take off like this.
if you've gotten a PM from me but are not showing up on aboutimage's list, you're still good to go. if you HAVEN'T gotten a PM from me, i'm sorry. i'm going to have to limit this core group to what we've got for now. but you are ABSOLUTELY more than welcome to play along with the home game and follow through the thread with us.
what i'd like for us to do first is find out a little bit more about why everyone wants to be here. do you need more help converting to b/w? do your attempts come out bland and gray? please post WHY you thought this group appealed to you. i hope that will help me drive things in the correct direction.
secondly, i would like everyone to post a thumbnail of a shot that's ALREADY in your profile that is black and white. don't go shoot anything new to impress us... just pick something you've already got (if you don't have anything, go for a duotone or a selective desat pic, and if you STILL don't have anything, post a shot with really good contrast and separate blocks of color). try to pick one that's not one of your highest-rated -- one that it's less likely everyone has seen. this isn't an ego challenge ("look at my best!") as much as it is a workshop. feel free to mess up. i do it ALL the time.
finally, please go through everyone else's shots and add a short comment to each about what you like and what you don't. focus more on the color, toning, and contrast than on composition and subject. does the b/w help the mood of the picture? and, do you think it's an appropriate shot to be converted to b/w? (not all shots were meant to be displayed in two colors -- we'll get into that later).
i'll go first:
photojournalism is what first got me REALLY interested in photography. i love looking at stark images that tell real-life stories and truly draw me in. i know that not all journalistic photos are b/w (less and less these days, actually), but i think that frequently the removal of the distraction of color forces viewers to focus on the more important parts of the shot. to me, conversion to b/w is one of the few means of removing something from an image in order to enhance the primary focal point.
i started shooting with digital. i have shoeboxes of snapshots but they are just that. i've been using Photoshop for over a decade, so by the time i bought a "real" camera, digital seemed the way to go. some of my shots i knew i wanted to be in b/w, but the reason i chose it for some of my shots, honestly, was to just save them. the colors were gross or the white balance was wrong... it was a cheat. but the more i did it (i screw up a LOT), the more i got into it. a lot of times now, i'm able to look through the viewfinder and almost subtract the color out in my head. sometimes it works for b/w and sometimes i just know it's going to be a color image. that's ok too. :)
i looked at my profile the other day after i signed up for this mentor business. at first i was like "what the heck am i doing?" then i realized that my 5 highest-rated shots were all b/w or duotone, so i figured i must be doing something right.
here's one of the lesser-known shots from my profile. it's got some issues compositionally, but i would like this to be my first one up for critique:
report back soon!
rob |
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07/11/2005 09:33:11 AM · #7 |
Hi Rob
OK, why did I sign up for this? Mainly because black and white photography was where I first entered the interest and remains a love of mine but I seem not to be focusing on it as much as I used to.
I got into photography when I was about 11 or 12 - first year of high school - and my parents generously bought me a Minolta film SLR and lenses for my birthday that year. A year or two later a bunch of us asked the school Art department if we could study photography. They were happy for us to do so but weren't willing to provide any teaching or guidance. They did agree to let us convert a tiny disused kiln room into a dark room and stumped up some money for a second hand enlarger plus chemicals and paper. And that small group of us basically spent our lunch times and breaks in that dark room for a couple of years to come.
More recently this interest has merged with my other great love, travel, and I've ended up neglecting non-travel photography.
I haven't got specific areas I want to focus on, I would like simply to increase my motivation to produce some new black and white photos, learn whatever I can and improve in whatever areas I can, just seeing how it goes.
I didn't know whether you wanted us to post a challenge or portfolio image so here's one from each:
 (challenge)
 (portfolio)
I've tried to choose two that people won't know well and which contrast to each other - one very organic and one very architectural.
I'm not supposed to be posting three but IF people have time left over after doing the first lot of thumbs, I'd also appreciate comment on this one - it's one of my faves yet has never received any comments or interest so I'd like to know whether anyone else sees what I see in it:
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=97617
Message edited by author 2005-07-11 09:44:02.
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07/11/2005 09:42:04 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
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I left my comment on the image itself, then figured it might be useful to copy it here too.
There are some aspects of this that leap out at me even before I am able to really soak in the broader scene and look hard at all the details:-
Tilted horizon - I can see how you've decided to keep the lines of the foreground area of the decking horizontal but as this is at the expense of the true horizon it doesn't work for me. Especially as all the verticals (lamp posts, bins and buildings) are also tilted.
Exposure - I also have a problem exposing for bright skies and often have the same situation as you have here with small patches of the sky completely blown out. In this image there are few natural highlights so those blown out patches really stand out more strongly.
Moving past those into the details of the scene, here are my observations:-
Our main character in the foreground seems to present a fascinating silhouette but this is interrupted by the two characters seated behind merging into his shape. I wonder what the composition would be like were the photograph taken a few moments later when he had progressed to a position between the two leftmost bins?
.
For the record, I'd appreciate any comments given to me to be left on the images themselves (so I can find them easily in the future) but would be happy for them to be copied here too.
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07/11/2005 10:02:41 AM · #9 |
I'll just post one of my own. It's not necessarily a favorite, although I like it quite a bit. I already know why it got hammered in the challenge, so no need to revisit that ;-)
My reason for wanting to learn more about B&W: To me, taking to color out of the picture forces you to concentrate on the most basic elements of the picture - light and shadow. They can be very dramatic, and it always seemed to me that the "masterpieces" were usually in B&W (probably for the same reason).
I don't typically convert my color photos to B&W. I usually take them that way. I'm experimenting with color photo filters when in B&W mode (yellow for highlighted skies, red for highlighted fall leaves, etc.) and sometimes like the effect I get.
Mainly, I'd just like to learn how to compose a dramatic piece. If anyone wants to look at my stuff, I have plenty of B&W on my profile. Maybe you can tell me what I'm doing right and wrong. |
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07/11/2005 10:16:09 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by aboutimage:
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I left a comment on the image that is essentially just my observations about the image. I don't know that any of them will be useful but they are just feedback on how I viewed the image:
This is an unusual shot and I think it lends itself well to black and white. Here are my observations, in no particular order:
- The toning applied to the black and white seems rather red in colour, this may be deliberate to echo the colour of the wine.
- Although there are some really bright white areas outside the window, because there are a lot of highlights in the foreground objects this doesn't stand out or distract particularly.
- I like the way the objects are placed to one side to allow the view of the window grills but I find their placement somewhat cluttered.
- I wonder if more could be made of the reflections of the objects in the surface material?
- It's hard to focus on the shapes and outline of the flowers and leaves because of the strong shapes of the grill just behind.
- I like the detail in the glass of the objects and the reflections in the wine glass are particularly intriguing.
- I like the way the bottom left hand corner is punctuated by a full circle from the grill. I think the slight cropping make the one at the top left less effective.
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07/11/2005 10:38:41 AM · #11 |
I've always been interested in B&W photos. The contrasting and focal interest always jumps out for attention in most. I also think it gives more dof at times. Almost every photo I take, I change over to black and white just to see how it looks. The reason I'm here is to learn more about getting the right exposure, contrast, etc.. My shots sometimes end up not being very pleasing to the eye, not enough contrast, too sharp/soft. I just need help in general! I left comments on all the photos posted so far.
Here are a couple:
Message edited by author 2005-07-11 10:51:15.
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07/11/2005 10:41:28 AM · #12 |
kavey -- thanks for all of your great thoughts!
in the interests of thread management, let's leave the comments on the initial submissions out of the forum here. if 8 of us participate and each of us comment on each other's shots, we'll have something like 60 posts just with comments on these initial photos! so, please post comments to the photos. having the thumbnails here will allow us to get to 'em easily.
perhaps we can put some kind of note at the top of our comments on the shots: something like "B/W Mentor Class" or the like.
:) |
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07/11/2005 10:43:30 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
in the interests of thread management, let's leave the comments on the initial submissions out of the forum here. if 8 of us participate and each of us comment on each other's shots, we'll have something like 60 posts just with comments on these initial photos! so, please post comments to the photos. having the thumbnails here will allow us to get to 'em easily.
perhaps we can put some kind of note at the top of our comments on the shots: something like "B/W Mentor Class" or the like.
:) |
OK no problem - I'll go edit mine now to reflect that idea.
Everyone probably knows but just incase anyone doesn't, the quickest way to locate recently received comments is to go to your profile and use the Comments Received link.
Message edited by author 2005-07-11 10:49:46.
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07/11/2005 01:43:51 PM · #14 |
hi!
a LOT of people have contacted me about joining up. the "official" group is full right now, but i'm very excited about the interest in black and white so i'm having trouble turning people away.
PLEASE keep reading through this thread. if you are not a member and have, AT ANY TIME, a question, please PM me. i will work to either answer you directly or post a note in the thread if it's something that everyone will benefit from.
anything i can do to get rid of those DREADED color images... (kidding!) (kinda) :)
now, you "official" students: where are your shots? :^) |
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07/11/2005 02:22:03 PM · #15 |
What attributes do you look for in a good B&W photo? How do you decide when to use B&W vs color? I have used B&W several times, but I find I am usualy trying to make a photo I like with poor color look better. I don't usualy look at a scene and say "hey that would look great in B&W". If this thread is not appropriate let me know and I will glady edit it away. Thanks
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07/11/2005 02:24:22 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by tristalisk:
What attributes do you look for in a good B&W photo? How do you decide when to use B&W vs color? |
nope, it's PERFECTLY appropriate.
i am, right at this very minute, typing up a little "plan of attack" for our group and these questions are most definitely on it.
but, for right now, why don't you post a sample from your portfolio (if you have one), so everyone can see what you've done and we can know where we're starting. :) |
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07/11/2005 02:32:07 PM · #17 |
| oh, yeah. i'm gonna be talking a lot about Photoshop-specific stuff. is that a problem for anyone? |
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07/11/2005 02:50:07 PM · #18 |
Sure here is a couple of examples. They are not the same shot but were probably only one or two clicks apart. I still would not be able to say B&W was the better shot. I feel it's a great shot but I think the color is better.
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07/11/2005 02:53:19 PM · #19 |
The first is from an advanced edit challenge and the lily from my portfolio
I will leave comments on the ones my fellow B&W's posted.
I'm looking to learn to tune my eye more to b&w --- see it in potential shots, also learn about dual and quad-tone post processing work. The pop of well done b&w is something I drool over. I am only working with PS Elememnts 2.0 but have purchased the "hidden secrets" cd that works as a plugin to simulate some of the PS features like curves and dualtones. (Here I am speaking as if I understand what that is -- I have really no idea! I only know that those remarks are in the comments of b&w shots I love)
Theresa
edit to add: perhaps offering a few "things to notice about B&W" would help teach as we comment... you mention contrast, and tone. I had heard that there should as many different tones in the image (from white through many grays to black) wondering your'all thoughts on what you look for as you comment on the shots/
Message edited by author 2005-07-11 15:05:33. |
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07/11/2005 03:14:10 PM · #20 |
woo woo! we're rockin' and rollin'!
OK, i'm going to focus this little group on 4 key steps in the B/W process:
1) calibration if your monitor isn't displaying all of the subtle tones, you're missing out!
2) selection which photographs are you going to convert to b/w? which ones SHOULD you? should you shoot in b/w mode on your cam?
3) conversion how do you take a color image and suck the color out while keeping the good stuff?
4) production once you've got the image converted, how are you going to bring out the subtle tones and really make the image pop?
and i'm loving the images that you guys are posting. PLEASE DON'T GET OFFENDED BY THE COMMENTS!! if any of us were pros, we'd be getting paid for this!
i am going to pull from this "pool" of images that we have here to illustrate points that i'm trying to make. i can type all day and not actually make a point, so hopefully the visuals will be educational too. |
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07/11/2005 03:17:18 PM · #21 |
hi everyone :) *tosses her hair at mucky*
i'm mentoring my own group in Portaits so i may not be as active here as everyone else. i will be following along closely, though.
here is a pic from my portfolio that i really like but finished relatively low.
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07/11/2005 03:19:47 PM · #22 |
step 1: calibrate your monitor.
i'm sure some of you are like "duh..." but trust me...it's a bigger issue than you think. if you're using your monitor straight outta the box then you are missing out. factory calibration is probably not any good. it's meant to be bright and crazy and eye-catching when it's sitting on the shelf at best buy.
there are a million threads in dpc about how to calibrate and i'm not going to re-invent the wheel here.
this is a great starting point: the gray strip. take a look at the images here and ensure you can see a definite distinction between the different shades of gray. you don't have to have fancy calibration software!! there are a billion free ways to calibrate your monitor so that it is "good enough" for our purposes here.
finally, if you are using an LCD monitor, make sure the screen is as parallel to your face as possible. i spent like 20 minutes a few months ago cursing photoshop because i was convinced it was shifting the color of a client logo that i was saving for the web. i moved the screen about 1 centimeter and realized that it looked a full stop darker at the bottom of the screen than at the top because of the tilt of the monitor. doh. |
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07/11/2005 03:48:28 PM · #23 |
I don't have the internet at home so I don't know how well calibrated the monitor is. I saved the file to a USB flash drive and will make sure I am up to standard tonight. My normal veiwing is on a work PC and I know for a fact it is way off. But I can't do anything about it.
On a more B&W related topic. I realy like the photos shown by the others so far. I look at them and say wow what an emotional photo and what great details. I feel that detail is an importaint factor to a good B&W. Is this always true?
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07/11/2005 04:12:57 PM · #24 |
Sher, I didn't comment again on yours as it's one I've already commented on (and love).
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07/11/2005 04:30:49 PM · #25 |
Hi all. I am late - sorry :)
Here is a B&W of mine:
[thumb]198211[/thumb]
I am drawn to B&W / monochrome and yes, I do see scenes that I know would look great in mono! I am looking to expand that into more areas. To me it represents simplicty and draws the eye to any lighting and textures present.
I have PS CS2, but I work in PSE 3.0.
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