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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> Photographer Rights or a Police State
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Showing posts 51 - 75 of 81, (reverse)
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 07/29/2005 12:31:20 AM · #51
Originally posted by GeneralE:
"I'm always on the lookout for suspicious characters, and I don't have a camera-phone, so I always carry my camera with me just in case, so I can document anything important."


Try this one "officer, I wasnt taking photos, i was just looking around. i cant see without using my camera, its my eyes, my EYES, damnit!" and act very eccentric and start talking to yourself, mumbling gibberish... lol
 07/29/2005 12:34:11 AM · #52
Hey Everyone,
When people harass me for taking photos I just bust out the Jedi Mind Trick, "You don't need to see my identification".
 07/29/2005 12:38:24 AM · #53
Originally posted by Pedxer:
Hey Everyone,
When people harass me for taking photos I just bust out the Jedi Mind Trick, "You don't need to see my identification".

Heh, funny! But in all seriousness, I think some people are getting bent out of shape over nothing here. The friendly police officer asks to see someone's ID and the next thing you get is 5 conspiracy theories in a row? The most likely thing that happened immediately after the officer took down his name and license # would be to run it in the squad car computer for priors or outstanding warrants. That's it. No list.
 07/29/2005 12:40:18 AM · #54
Originally posted by aboutimage:
Heh, funny! But in all seriousness, I think some people are getting bent out of shape over nothing here.


HEY, dont spoil the fun! ;)
 07/29/2005 12:44:56 AM · #55
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
It's even worse when it's some "I wannabe a cop but can't lay off the donuts" so called Security Guard who tries to enforce laws about taking pictures that only exist in his imagination.


hahahahah you dont have to listen to those people! they cant do anything to you.
Some of those people make it to the force eventually, its horrible.
I don't want to sound like im anti-authority, but its amazing how important some of people seem to think they are now that they have a uniform, they're really just another person getting in your way half the time.

As a skateboarder ive had my name taken down more times than I can count, didn't always have my ID me with have been respectful and given accurate information to the cop (they wouldnt have known the difference), and they still treat you like a little sh*t. These people with nothing better to do acting like they are better than you is what annoys the hell out of me. Condescending speeches about whatever lasting upto 20 min only to end up in getting a citation anyways, when you think by actually listening and being agreeable it might do you some good. If I knew I was getting a ticket I would speak my mind from the start.

I have come across a few cops that were level-headed, told me what they need to tell me, and thats that, and I leave -whatever . now THAT - is them doing their jobs. NOT WASTING TIME LECTURING PEOPLE.

I think that's silly they asked your name for taking photos, I would have told them I had no ID on me, I've done that before and there's not much they can do about it (unless you are driving a vehicle then you run into legal probs)

but yeah dont worry about it, it is stupid and a bit weird however.
 07/29/2005 01:14:42 AM · #56
Originally posted by shadow:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
"I'm always on the lookout for suspicious characters, and I don't have a camera-phone, so I always carry my camera with me just in case, so I can document anything important."


Try this one "officer, I wasnt taking photos, i was just looking around. i cant see without using my camera, its my eyes, my EYES, damnit!" and act very eccentric and start talking to yourself, mumbling gibberish... lol

Then you're in for 72 hours "observation" for sure ...
 07/29/2005 01:16:57 AM · #57
In order to ask for your ID, I think the officer still has to have some "probable cause" to believe that a crime has been committed. I'd always want to ask specifically of what crime they were suspicious.
 07/29/2005 01:20:36 AM · #58
Originally posted by Tom2898:
They're just doing their job, guys.


Yep, but they and the folks directing them are not using 1/10 of the IQ God blessed them with.
 07/29/2005 01:30:27 AM · #59
Originally posted by jbsmithana:
Ok - I have to step in here. My father was a cop, my brother was a cop and my nephew is a cop, all in NY. I agree it is not the individual cops. They are doing their job.

But, it is the policy makers in law enforcement taht give them stupid jobs to do. Blanket policies like stopping and questioning people taking pictures is pure crap. Let officers use a little common sense in what is a potential threat or suspicious action and what is not.

And yes we live in a great country. But how long do you think that the loss of liberty will go on? How far does it have to go before we do not live in a great country? When does it reach the point that we are a police state? We all would have different answers to these questions but we would all in fact have a limit that represented crossing the line.


Well said!
 07/29/2005 01:31:49 AM · #60
These guys (the policy-makers) seemed doomed to repeat history, since they've apparently learned nothing from it. People oppressed by rich oligarchs eventually rise in violent revolution, as Thomas Jefferson so eloquently stated.

Not only have they created new incubators for violent insurgency overseas, they are developing the core of a backlash movement here too (witness this thread, or the Oklahoma City bombing) which seems like it will eventually lead to either civil war or fascism.
 07/29/2005 01:33:07 AM · #61
All that is necessary to control the people is to make them afraid.
 07/29/2005 01:44:14 AM · #62
And that's what these more often occuring incidents are: terrorist acts perpetrated by the state against its very own citizenry for the purpose of minimizing and repressing dissent. The authorities are attempting to prolong their own political lives and it is their fears that they are trying to project onto the general population.
 07/29/2005 01:55:45 AM · #63
Originally posted by jemison:
All that is necessary to control the people is to make them afraid.


Go and read "Angels & Demons" by Dan Brown... religion is a form of control too.
 07/29/2005 02:18:59 AM · #64
Originally posted by deapee:
The cops should just mess with the pocket-cam guys.

Originally posted by shadow:
i agree with you that someone trying to take candid shots would probably be carrying pocket-sized cameras which are more convenient.


That would be hardware profiling! ;-)
 07/29/2005 03:29:25 AM · #65
Originally posted by GeneralE:
In order to ask for your ID, I think the officer still has to have some "probable cause" to believe that a crime has been committed. I'd always want to ask specifically of what crime they were suspicious.


Actually, they don't.

Read this decision from the US Supreme Court: Hiibel v. Nevada

Refusal to provide ID can be a crime, it depends on local statute.


Message edited by author 2005-07-29 03:37:21.
 07/29/2005 03:30:50 AM · #66
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Refusal to provide ID can get you arrested.


I think while we belonged to whatever, our ID cards belong to the government where it was issued? hehe
 07/29/2005 03:32:25 AM · #67
Yeah, I cited that case further back in the thread, but couldn't remember the particulars. Thanks for the clarification/correction ... that was the gist of the major change in the decision, that police no longer needed any "reason" at all to demand you "papers" ...
 07/29/2005 03:49:50 AM · #68
I had a friend, a comercial fisherman, who used to drink and drive on occasion. One day I was driving from the dock to the store and noticed he had been pulled over by a State Trooper. I knew he had been drinking, but a few minutes later he comes pulling up in front of the store. I asked "How'd you get out of that one?" and he told me when the Trooper started asking for his lisence he dug up his nose as far as his index finger would go, fished around a bit, then with the same hand reached for his wallet and pulled out his lisence. It worked for him.
07/29/2005 05:21:20 AM · #69
07/29/2005 07:52:00 AM · #70
My husband is a cop. Since 9/11 he has gotten at least 10 calls a day for suspicious persons or cars or activity. He must check each of these out and document the results. On some occasions, it can be as simple as a person taking pictures. On other occasions, it can be much more serious, like the pedophile he arrested watching kids at a playground (restraining order violation). It is citizens that call these in the majority of the time, not the cops having nothing to do.

As for quota, that's not quite the right word, as my husband and I have argued countless times. It is a "suggestion," recommended by the command staff to be used during bi-annual review. Hey, I call it a quota, but those are illegal. :)

Anyway, my husband has to document each encounter with a citizen, especially in these lawsuit crazy times. Asking for ID is the easiest way to prove you were there. I highly doubt the photographer was put on a list. He was probably checked against a list, like for open warrants and such but generally a person is run against the state or local database, not a federal database.

d
 07/29/2005 08:14:42 AM · #71
Originally posted by GeneralE:
In order to ask for your ID, I think the officer still has to have some "probable cause" to believe that a crime has been committed.


That's the way it was before the patriot act. Now, they can ask anyone they want any time they want for any reason they want. Ridiculous.

The last time I was stopped, I was taking pictures from up the highway of two cops who pulled a guy over for something and they were searching his trunk...



He made sure to come find me...asked me what I was doing I said "taking pictures" he said I had no business doing that. I said well, I haven't broken any laws am I free to go? He said yeah, if I broke a law, I'd either be sitting in the back of his car or lying on the ground.... SURE.
 07/29/2005 08:35:35 AM · #72
Taking pictures of law enforcement officials without getting their permission first is a bad idea. Many of these guys/girls are already moving targets for bad guys. They are often overworked and stressed. I think you'd get p.o.'ed too if you did their type of work and have complete strangers taking pics of you.

I can understand that photographers can get ticked off for being challenged, but what the media tells us is that the USA is at war, and cops are now part of the game to a much higher degree than they ever were. Photographers in war zones get challenged all the time as per their credentials. The US is at war, so expect to have your credentials scrutinized.

Also try to remember that police have to do their job, cuz if they don't it's called negligence. I'd rather have a motivated police force rather than a lazy one. People should be glad that they are being extra careful. I do however agree that some of these guys/girls could use some better people skills though.
 07/29/2005 08:59:31 AM · #73
Originally posted by Beagleboy:
Taking pictures of law enforcement officials without getting their permission first is a bad idea. Many of these guys/girls are already moving targets for bad guys. They are often overworked and stressed. I think you'd get p.o.'ed too if you did their type of work and have complete strangers taking pics of you.


If someone hadn't been taking pictures of law enforcement, Rodney King would be just another guy who got the crap beat out of him by the LAPD. No to mention the cops back in the '60's turning the firehoses and attack dogs loose on peaceful protesters. I'm sure none those officers gave their consent. The cops may not like it, but when they are out in public, they are just as valid a subject as anyone else.

Now, it's nice to ask and asking is the courteous thing to do, but it's not always possible.

Originally posted by Beagleboy:
I can understand that photographers can get ticked off for being challenged, but what the media tells us is that the USA is at war, and cops are now part of the game to a much higher degree than they ever were. Photographers in war zones get challenged all the time as per their credentials. The US is at war, so expect to have your credentials scrutinized.

Also try to remember that police have to do their job, cuz if they don't it's called negligence. I'd rather have a motivated police force rather than a lazy one. People should be glad that they are being extra careful. I do however agree that some of these guys/girls could use some better people skills though.


I don't mind being asked to show my ID or having my name run through some database, what ticks me off is arbitrary "laws" being fabricated and then "enforced", like those "laws" against taking pictures while on public property.
07/29/2005 09:38:42 AM · #74
Originally posted by goodtempo:
I think people here in the States are spoiled and need to learn some gratitude. I have never lived anywhere outside the United States and I am grateful that I live here. It is sad what is going on it the world today, but I would rather be here than anywhere else. This is a great country and I don't mind the police stopping me and making sure all is safe.

[rant on]
Well said Richard. I must confess that I am very much ashamed of many of you. We live in a great country and you act as if it is some medieval fiefdom. Freedom isn't free. Sometimes we have to sacrifice simple liberties for the protection of all. That policeman was simply doing his duty by asking you questions. Terrorists don't come in some prepackaged form. Many of them look exactly like you and me. They dress the same, talk in the same accents, and are born citizens. In the crazy world we live in, those that put themselves in harms way each day to protect us can't assume that because you aren't wearing a turban and asking if people if they'd like a slurpy today (horrid stereotype, I know) that you are not up to no good. The costs that come with not being diligent are just too high. You people do remember September 11th? I'd just as soon that day never had the chance to occur again. So I ask you again, was it really so damnably intrusive on your civil liberties to answer a few questions and show your ID? If so, perhaps you should consider relocating.
[rant off]

07/29/2005 10:13:36 AM · #75
Originally posted by Beagleboy:


The US is at war, so expect to have your credentials scrutinized.



I'd rather keep my credentials where they belong, if you don't mind.

The Article 1 Section 8 of the US Constitution grants the Congress sole authority to declare war. But it has not done so since the US was involved in WWII. So if the US is at war, then the executive has overreached its authority.

One does not win a war on terror by killing terrorists. Killiing them is the most productive means of turning people who don't like you into suicide bombers. If you don't believe it, think about how many suicide bombers American aggression has produced in Iraq.

Remember the last words of Obi-Wan Kenobi. "kill me and I will come back a hundred times stronger." If one could win the war on terrorism by killing terrorists, things would be different in in Northern Ireland and Israel. And terrorism would end with the first suicide bomber. It is not constraint or force that causes people to lay down their lives for causes in which they believe, It is rage. It is anger. it is hatred, the hatred of people who feel powerless to address injustice. People do not hate gratuitously, they are taught hatred by reasoning about injustice or just by feeling enraged about injustice. Crush al-Qaeda, Crush Hamas, crush every terrorist organization known on this planet and what will happen? Each will be replaced by ten just like it except more powerful, more determined, more efficient.

How does one win with terrorists? One listens to the complaints that give rise to their virulent attitudes. One works for a world that works for everyone, not just the guys with the most resources. It is ears and minds and empathy and a determination to be fair to all people - not just the ones who can afford to hire guys with guns - that will win the war on terrorism. It is to allow people who have complaints to raise them and give them fair hearing. It is to act against injustices when they are raised by people with complaints. This is the ultimate reason for free speech.

As long as Americans believe that the police will 'keep us safe' if we only trade away our civil rights, the terrorists have won. Paraphrazing Ben Franklin "Those who trade away liberty to gain safety deserve neither and lose both."

This has a lot to do with where we are allowed to point our cameras.
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