DPC Mentorship - Gig/Concert - DPChallenge Forums

08/06/2005 01:27:41 PM · #177

Composition could have been better in my humble opinion. It doesn't look as if you captured any particular 'moment'. This is the mistake I made the last time I went out and shot. Maybe you other shots that you took that were too blury did. Composition wise Rx Bandits 3 has thebest compo out of all 5, but I think that it is maybe still a bit too centered. Rx Bandits 2 everyone is looking in a differnt direction. The eye dosen't really know where it wants to go when looking at this photo. Finch 1 us great compo in the singer, but the guitar player in the background destacts..I made the SAME exact mistake on one of my photos last weekend. Hope I have been hepful, I am in NO WAY an expert so don't take anything I have said to heart. This is just my opinion.

xx
Anni

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

08/06/2005 02:59:44 PM · #178

Okay, PLEASE READ THIS POST CAREFULLY.

I've put in a lot of time into this thread, and it is frustrating when I feel advice is not being followed. I usually have no problem with my students when they feel strongly about something and do it their own way, but only after they've at least tried it my way!
There are MANY posts here and a lot of words from me, so I'll do my best to concisely sum it up in this post to save everyone from reading the entire thread. I will also index each point with a number or letter so I can refer back to them.

I want to avoid a thread where everyone just posts their latest concert pics done any old way... you can use the forums in the usual way for that. I would like this to be a series of ASSIGNMENTS! I realise this is not for everyone, and I won't be upset/offended if you decide this approach is not for you.

So here is what I want you to do...

1: Choose ONE local venue with moderately good lighting if possible. Tell me what it is and it's website address if possible, if you haven't done so already.

2: Approach the promoter of this venue, and ask if you can get free entry in return for their use of your photos. Get to know them, build up a good working relationship. Tell me how you've done with this (only one person has done this so far!).

3: If you don't have an external flash you can bounce, buy one. You can buy a basic flash that will do the job very cheaply. I recommend using a PC sync cord (you can buy an adapter if your camera does not have a socket) and holding the flash in the hand not holding the camera, but this is an unorthodox technique. Extra brownie points for trying this though! You have much more control over where you bounce the flash. Coloured walls can add a lot of flavour to the quality of the bounced light. You don't need amazing lenses if you use flash. Always ask the performers if you can use flash.

4: Get in the habit of placing the performer on the edge of your frame looking into it. Once this becomes a habit, you can start thinking about other ways of composing your shot.

5: Ask your performers if you can get on stage with them, or at least on the wings. In any photography, people are always interested in what is unusual or what they don't see a lot. Viewpoints from the stage are more valuable than what the audience get to see.

6: Show plenty of shots of the audience and surroundings. People will always be more interested in shots like these than you realise.

7: Get special moments of the performers, not a shot that could have been taken any point during the gig.

8: Keep checking your histograms. This will help to avoid overexposing.

And I'll create a list of common pitfals so that I can list them more quickly when asked for a critique:

a: Performer on edge of shot looking OUT of frame. This leads the viewer's eye out of the photo.

b: Performer's eyes/ face obscured by microphone/ headstock/ whatever. Throw the photo away.

c: Too much background clutter. Anything in the background must be part of the composition or it looks like a p&s snapshot.

d: Too many performers in the shot with no clear pof.

e: Performer is centered in the shot. Occasionally this will work well, but usually this is a sign of a lack of imagination on the part of the photographer.

f: Shot is not sharp enough. Either use flash or a minimum of 1/125s.

g: Overexposed. I recommend using a constant manual exposure all the way through a gig. If there are different levels of light through the stage, I manually change the settings depending on where I'm pointing the camera. If you're using spot metering (your only other sensible option), keep an eye on your shutter speed. If it drops way below your average for the gig, you may be overexposing.

h: Underexposed. If you can't use flash and you're on maximum aperture with 1/90s then there's nothing you can do about this. Otherwise, use more flash!

i: Too much flash, not enough ambient light. Reduce your shutter speed, increase your ISO, let in more natural light!

j: Boring expression. Wait for a genuine moment of expression! Even the most boring performers have that special twinkle in their eye at some point.

k: Hands chopped off. Ouch.

I will keep adding to this list as I think of more things.
Good luck!

BTW, please welcome your new co-mentor, terje... one of the best gig photographers on DPC. He's fantastic at not only capuring great shots of performers but also crowds, candids and general atmosphere shots which is what you need if you want to start finding publications who will accredit you to get into the big shows I know you all want to do!
You must check out his website here: //www.mrx.no/Events.html

Message edited by author 2005-08-06 15:11:47.

singe

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

08/06/2005 03:08:22 PM · #179

Okay, I understand what you're saying. I just have one question about number 2: Should I really approach the venue, considering my age? I doubt they'd take me seriously...

-Brad

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

08/06/2005 03:21:08 PM · #180

Originally posted by singe:

Using my new commenting system,
RX Bandits 1... d,f. Also, why all the negative space at the top? At least use rule of thirds... the fact that the performers' heads form a line across the middle of the shot isn't good. I do like the look the sax player is giving you, shots where the performer looks directly at the photographer can work very well.
RX Bandits 2... a,b,d,f,j. If you include the audience from the back, wait until the end of a song when they clap... or get them doing something other than look like zombies! Hands in the air is best. Again, use rule of thirds!
Finch 1... b,f,h. Try to get the composition you want without cropping afterwards.
RX Bandits 3... e,f,g. Nice motion blur in rh and expression though.
Finch 2... a,d,f,h.

And regarding your chosen venue, as long as you're legally allowed in there I would say you have your age in your favour!

Message edited by author 2005-08-06 15:21:37.

singe

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

08/06/2005 03:30:28 PM · #181

So... should I email the venue and tell them I want to shoot to gain experience and they can have any pictures they want? Should I tell them to give me credit? Sorry if you answered this earlier...

08/06/2005 03:35:01 PM · #182

I wouldn't email them... go to the next gig there and have a chat with the guy who's in charge of promoting the venue face-to-face. Either take some photos with you, or give him a website address with your images on. I had a quick look at //www.flickr.com/photos/reductiondesign/ , this should do the trick nicely. Follow it up with a phonecall.
If you want to get press passes to the big names, get ready for lots of similar phoning and chasing. Get chatting to ALL the bands who you photograph. Speak to loads of the audience. It's all about connections and who you know... being in with your local promoter will be the first step of many of becoming well connected.

08/06/2005 03:54:30 PM · #183

Originally posted by Anni:

no bouncing for me yet. I only have onboard...
Now I really have a lot to buy haha a 70-200mm f2.8 a 50mm 1.8 and aflashgun...which is most important?? The 70-200mm is sooo way out of the question though. I was going to rent one, but we had a major emergency this month and the credit card took a big hit.

Also at the local venue I am not sure where I would bounce all the walls are like yellowish brick, with some of the old plaster on painted black..The celing is really high and is painted black. and just about every other surface is black.

I have only one gig card to take with me this weekend, I have one 128 and a 64 as well and I was thinking of using the smaller cards set on jpg for my crowd and reportage shots. and still shooting in raw for the bands. This guves me some sence on security, because I can change everything with RAW if I make a mistake.

I can feel myself getting more confident though..thanks a bunch for everything.

Hi Anni, first of all, well done for being the student who has followed the most of my assignments so far! Please get yourself a cheap flash you can bounce though, your gig photos will thank you for it. Then get the 50mm lens. Don't worry about the 70-200mm lens, I still don't have one!
Now then... RAW... I shoot in low quality JPEG! On my 7D, low quality is still VERY good quality with huge files. I believe on a 300D/350D or D70 you should shoot on maximum quality JPEG. If I had 100Gb cards I might vaguely think about shooting in RAW, but even then RAW files take too long to process. I may change my thoughts on this in the future though. My reasoning is that composition is WAY more important than exposure, and I can take a LOT of photos at a gig. To give you an idea of how many shots I take, I was at a weekend festival (3 days of music) and I took about 3,000 photos. About 100 of these are definite keepers. Imaging how much space and time those photos would have taken in RAW. I say you're much better off taking as MANY photos as possible rather than having a fraction more shadow/highlight detail in RAW. In fact, gig photography is VERY forgiving of burnt out highlight/shadow detail. It's part of the style. Just make sure your contrast settings are on -2. I've been known to take 2,000 photos in one days worth of gig shooting. The more photos you take, the quicker you'll get better as you work out what does and doesn't work. If you take loads of photos, you can experiment with different styles. In fact, you should make a point of experimenting and you can't do this if you're rationing shots because you're shooting in RAW.

08/06/2005 05:55:15 PM · #184

Singe.. I contacted my local venue being straight up with the manager. Usually the manager or owner id in direct contact with the promoters, tour managers, or the bands themselves and they will know first if it is okay with them for you to be allowed in..I just dropped the place a quick email giving them my intentions..I said I was a photographer and I was really wanting to get into gig photography, but I didn't have much experience in that field and that I needed a place to practice. I offered up my photos for free for them to use..I also offered to do promo shots of the band so that they can promote that band if they didn't already have a photo. This went down really well I think. I also gave them a phonecall. Phonecalls can be a lot better than email when you are dealing with venues like bars and clubs because lots of them are swamped with bands begging to play there so they might not have time to write you back or they might just throw it away because they don't recognize your email addy .I wasn't asked my age, but I did conduct myslef in a professional manner.

I did the same thing to the person responsible handing out the press passes at this big concert tomorrow..I was completely honest. I didn't lie about experience or talk myself up. I offerd my photos up for free, and they will prob get used if I get some good ones for the Cumbria publication that the council puts out. I must admit that I am really lucky though cause if it was a real promoter and not the council/newspaper promoting I would prob have gotten laughed right off the phone without having a publication to back me.

Bob thanks again for the advice about the flashgun I will start looking for one next week..Also I think that I will use your advice on the jpg thing..I can only get 97 on a gig card on RAW and I think 200 or something like that..plus I have the 128..64 and 2 32 that should be plenty..Is there anything else that I need to bring with me for something like this...A survival kit of sorts??

Welcome Terje...I love your photos.It is great that we now have 2 mentors with such different styles.

terje

Apple iPhone

08/06/2005 06:23:08 PM · #185

Thanks BobsterLobster/Anni

My equipment includes: Canon 20D, for concert/gig photography I primarly use: 12-24mm Sigma, 50mm/1.4, 85mm/1.2 and 70-200/2.8IS.
My camera has a batterygrip for better vertical shooting,
I use the ST2E with 550Ex for flash. As of recently, I'm also the happy owner of a pocketwizard wireless system.

BobsterLobster's idea with assignments is great, and I hope that as many of you as possible will actively go out
and seek a chances to shoot a local venue.

08/06/2005 06:24:44 PM · #186

Good luck Anni,
take a rucksack with everything in it you could possibly need if possible! Remember to keep checking your histograms.
The really tough part of daytime gig photography is that the background becomes cluttered and busy... do your best with composition to keep everything simple. Include as many stage lights as you can in order to get some interesting lighting in your shot. Be cheeky and ask everyone if you can shoot from the stage or wings, even the big names! Ask for the managers if you can't speak to the performers. Hope it goes well!

08/07/2005 05:33:49 AM · #187

Thanks bob..Rucksack is no probs I have a lower pro ruck sack that my cam and lenses go in the bottom of...Bringing some bottled water and a few sarnies (sandwiches).

08/08/2005 07:47:21 AM · #188

How did it go, Anni?
Here's one of mine from yesterday I'm quite chuffed with:

good looking lass.

Come on everyone else, how are you getting on? Please let me have your choice of venue and let us know how you're doing.

08/08/2005 10:05:28 AM · #189

it was awesome..I am still editing, but I think you are going to be very proud of you little student..I will post some up tonight..I am looking forward tp hearing your thoughts...

08/08/2005 03:47:47 PM · #190

okay so here are the first of my images I am doing one band at a time. I have some edited of daniel but I will wait till I have them all done to upload. I had a great day met some really cool people as well. I can really see how going to one of these things can really get you moving in the right direction. I got talking to a jounalist, the paper couldn't send out a photographer so she was there with a P&S trying to get pics for the paper, she said that she didn't manage to get any good ones of girls aloud so I offered up my services and said that I had got a few good group shots.I said that she and her paper could use them for free. I need to stop giving so much stuff away..ha but i figure it is good publicity and it will help me get my name out there..Besides that she is a really cool person and I think I made a new firend (haha I am so sad! haha) I also met Daniel Bedingfield's guitarist and he was a really nice guy as well. He said he was going to get some passes for me and my new found reporter fried to go backstage, then I reminded him I was alowed back stage just that I couldn't take pics back there. I wasn't allowed on the stage I tried but to no avail, the security was pretty tight and they said they were just going on orders from the acts management.
I had one hap hazard and nearly got trampled in the pit when daniel bedingfield lept off the stage and onto the baracades interacting with the crowd, another photographer nearly ran me over trying to get position to catch this moment..but na na na boo boo I was in the right place at the right time and prob got a better shot than him. Think you will love the shot bob. It was a pretty exausting day with one act right after the other and I only got about a 15 min break cause girls aloud were running late, and it was really hot. I didn't realize how much hard work it would be, My legs are sore from bending and squating tring to get just the right angle, and I forgot sunscreen. OUCH! I only got a few reportage shots and that was just the crowd from the pit. The lady said that she already had someone working freelance in the crowds and on the grounds and wanted me to concentrate on the acts I was only too happy to oblige. I ran out of memory on my last card half way through the last act and I was franticly trying to go through and erase shots I didn't need. I will NEVER EVER do this again!! I am deff getting some more cs cards. I took nearly 450 if not more photos. It was heart braking to work so hard for the photos and have to erase more than half of them, because of composition or lighting on wierd expression, but I loved every min of it and can't wait to do it agian. I worked really hard on my comp and trie dto keep things as simple as possible and bob, I had you Lulu photo in my head the whole time cause the lights reminded me of it. I worked my ass of not to cut off arms and hands!

I am having such a hard time choosing which photos of girls aloud to be judge by bob and terge. If I look at them they all look marketable, I don't really have that eye that only comes from experience, so maybe you guys can help me out a little with that. I also big time need some lessons on post process..I think I did okay but I know they could be better. so without futher ado I give you my fav 6 girls aloud photos out of about 20 you can have a look HERE
and tell me if you see any that are more marketable or something I could have done better. Don't worry I am not looking for a full critique of all 20 just let me know if I did something right..

Post Script: Bob your photo from yesterday is beautiful! It makes me feel crap at mine..haha that is why I am the student and you are the teacher. It is so crisp it makes me hate you (not really). The expression is beautiful she is a very pretty girl. Very natural looking.

08/08/2005 04:18:49 PM · #191

The third one REALLY looks like cartoon character but I LOVE this pic so I was so lucky to get it what should I do?? and I can't figure out his skin tone on the last one..and the second to last one don't worry I am kicking myself for cutting off the hands! but I thought since the expression was so good I might be able to get away with it.

08/08/2005 04:35:03 PM · #192

Hi Anni, I'm really glad you had a good time. I love the people you meet doing this kind of work.

My comments on your Girls Aloud pics:
It's REALLY tough taking photos during daylight, as the stage background becomes too cluttered with gray scaffolding and annoying lines. All photographers struggle in these conditions. I combat this by zooming in close and waiting until the performer has a solid colour behind them in the frame. You'll need to be pretty patient for this, bearing in mind you're also waiting for them to pull a special expression at this point.
gaweb.jpg is nice as you've got all of them together with the same pose, but it's a shame about the scaffolding at the top and the monitors at the bottom. Many gig photographers take a small step ladder with them to gigs, this could have given you just the height that you needed to remove these problems. I'd advise doing a few more large festival gigs before you take stepladders though!
Something about gaweb8.jpg bothered me that I couldn't put my finger on, then I realised that although she's singing, her mouth is shut! I'll add that to my list of no-nos! The background is better, but I would be tempted to dodge/burn the background to make it darker.
gaweb4.jpg is great... nice clean background, simple composition but SHE'S LOOKING OUT OF THE FRAME! Nice backlit hair as well! Doh. I might have colour corrected the shot in PS and removed a bit of red. She really has plastered the make-up on, hasn't she? ;-)
You got a nice expression in gaweb9.jpg, it's just a shame about the background. In fact, what I'm really missing is a side profile shot of any of the singers... you need to get to the side of the pit more and put the singer on the edge of the frame. This is a classic type of shot. You'll also have less problems with microphones obstructing the face. They're also more dynamic.
gaweb3.jpg is great, although it could be a tad sharper. Again, she's looking out of the frame though! It doesn't detract too much on this one however.
gaweb1.jpg could have been the strongest... the performer on the right seems a bit squashed up to the edge. Bearing in mind there are 2 performers here, I'd have centered them in the frame. Great moment though.
Another point about being at the side of the pit is that it can be easier to make your background less busy by featuring the side of the stage rather than the back of it.
I'll comment on your Bedingfield photos later...

Message edited by author 2005-08-08 16:59:52.

08/08/2005 05:12:09 PM · #193

aww gaweb8 was my favorite hahaha...meanie :P nah it's cool I see what you mean. In gaweb1 I wanted to center it sooo badly well center a bit more really but the ginger one was cut in half on the right of the pic so I had to crop her out. My instinct was to go to the side of the stage more, but I was kinda just going where the others went, because I thought I might have been doing something wrong. all the other photogs seemed to be clustering up towards the middle so I went with the flow. I got some more shots of other performers in the 'classic' position. I botched up banannarama though. they were only on 2 songs and they had dancers. I hate dancers! it was bad enough trying to get a shot let alone adding more people I didn't want in my shot cluttering it up.
Thanks for your comments. I really feel I have come a long way just in the past week!

08/08/2005 05:16:56 PM · #194

A quick comment... when I was at Glastonbury, I was often on my own away from the other photographers. They would gather in the centre. They soon quickly gathered around me though when they saw what I was after. I've since found out that many of these photographers were not proper professionals, but worked for free for influential publications.
At Womad a couple of weeks ago, the standard was MUCH higher, and most of the photographers were on the edges. Seriously, DON'T go where the other photographers are. Trust your own instincts. You'd be surprised how bad professional photographers are at gig photography if they've not done a lot of it before.

08/08/2005 05:49:52 PM · #195

THIS ONE IS GOING IN MY PORTFOLIO!! I had some of the scofolding burned it out and I think I got a 'moment' here this is Estelle with a backup singer.

Message edited by author 2005-08-08 17:50:16.

08/08/2005 05:53:40 PM · #196

Nice, but why are they in the centre of the shot? Also, cutting off the elbow looks accidental. Look how much stronger this is (extremely quick crop)

Edit... it is a great shot, well done!

Message edited by author 2005-08-08 17:56:10.

08/08/2005 06:05:39 PM · #197

Originally posted by BobsterLobster:

Nice, but why are they in the centre of the shot? Also, cutting off the elbow looks accidental. Look how much stronger this is (extremely quick crop)

Edit... it is a great shot, well done!

See this is why you get paid to do this and I have to beg to do it for free.

08/08/2005 06:12:00 PM · #198

Originally posted by Anni:

Just me again. I got the Daniel Bedingfield photos edited. I had a real problem with these and in some he looks like a cartoon character and I hate it. The ones when he was out in the crowd were shot against the sky so in the originals he was more like a siluette. I had to lighted the shadows to make him magicly apear, the problem with this as you could guess was noise, The reductuion of noise is what made him look like a cartoon character. I was just wondering if there was anyway around this. As I said before. I am sorry I am putting so many photos up you don't have to say something about all of them just if you could give me the general idea of what I have done right or wrong.

The third one REALLY looks like cartoon character but I LOVE this pic so I was so lucky to get it what should I do?? and I can't figure out his skin tone on the last one..and the second to last one don't worry I am kicking myself for cutting off the hands! but I thought since the expression was so good I might be able to get away with it.

Okay, your Bedingfield shots...
it's extremely difficult to expose for a performer and get detail in your sky without it washing out. Especially when you can't use fill-in flash. Were you using manual metering? If so, you have to remember to turn it off when you point the camera away from the stage. I fall afoul of this quite often! Whenever you point your camera away from the stage, you must use spot-metering especially when there's sky involved. Taking crowd shots usually involves sky which will throw metering unless you take a reading from a skin tone.
Now, count how many Bedingfield photos include the chopping off of hands. Tsk tsk tsk! ;-)
dbweb2.jpg is strong as he's looking right at you, but I think you should have zoomed out to show more of the crowd and setting. What a golden opportunity you had to show some atmosphere and the performer with his audience. The tree growing out of his head would then have bothered me less.
You've caught a nice moment with dbweb3.jpg, but try to avoid direct sunlight. It's REALLY hard to get effective results as the dynamic range is usually too great and the shadows and burnt out highlights don't look good. (As an aside, how camp does he look here?!) Can you see how effective it is when you shoot a performer from the side? It's just a shame about the background.
How did you try to rescue the shadow detail in these shots? Was it the shadow/highlight detail in PS8? I'm not sure if I could have done better unless I saw the original photo... but it's obviously better to get it right out of the camera! We'll look at the original shots at a later date if it's okay with you.
Anyway, I hope we can direct everyone back on track soon with your local venue assignments!

08/08/2005 06:15:18 PM · #199

Originally posted by Anni:

Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
Nice, but why are they in the centre of the shot? Also, cutting off the elbow looks accidental. Look how much stronger this is (extremely quick crop)

Edit... it is a great shot, well done!

See this is why you get paid to do this and I have to beg to do it for free.

Don't worry about it... I know I can be a bit harsh but it's usually down to not having much time to sweeten up my critiques! It really is a great shot I'm just being picky. Besides, I'm still doing a lot of stuff for free! The more you do it, the better you will get and you're off to a pretty good start. I was terrible when I started, experience is really important with this type of photography. I remember one person on DPC who I admired (no names!) giving me a hard time over the quality of my gig shots but I didn't take it badly and just stayed patient knowing I'd get it in time.