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08/19/2005 01:52:08 PM · #1 |
OK, here's the scenario. I have a long time friend getting married in San Jose tomorrow. I wanted to bring my camera to get some nice shots for him and his wife in addition to any pro. photographer they've hired. In fact, I went ahead and rented a 70-200 2.8IS for the occasion.
This begs the question: what can I do to make sure I don't offend or tick off the pro photographer with my big white lens and loud Digital Rebel? What would annoy you as a hired wedding photog? |
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08/19/2005 01:56:38 PM · #2 |
Originally posted by bledford:
What would annoy you as a hired wedding photog? |
A dog humping my leg. |
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08/19/2005 01:57:23 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by bledford:
This begs the question: what can I do to make sure I don't offend or tick off the pro photographer with my big white lens and loud Digital Rebel? What would annoy you as a hired wedding photog? |
Answers to this question took 15 pages of FredMiranda thread once. The answer is - depends on the photographer and how he was paid. Some photographers speculate - they shoot cheap and expect reprints. You'd piss him off. Some photographers shoot expensive and whatever they get is bonus and you won't piss them off. I wouldnt shoot photos of their formals at ALL, and if you're going to shoot cake pictures, be somewhere behind and out of the way. The thing is - you're going to get looks all day - simply by having that lens on the front of your camera, you are saying "I can do this too." If you went into a doctor's office with a white coat on and said "I'll see the patient in the waiting room before you take them in back" how do you think the good Dr. would respond? ;)
M
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08/19/2005 02:00:25 PM · #4 |
| Just don't smack him/her in the back of the head with that thing trying to get the same shot. Give them their space to work and try different angles than what they're getting, and take a lot of candids of people. |
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08/19/2005 02:00:43 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by bledford:
What would annoy you as a hired wedding photog? |
More specific annoyances:
1) People standing behind me shooting over my shoulder. I warn them once. Second time I back up extremely quickly to repose the couple. I'm 6'1 and large. If I move backwards quickly, people go down. Doesn't happen a third time.
2) People making suggestions while I'm shooting - I'm the hired pro and I know how to do my job. At the last wedding, I offered to go get something to drink while Aunt Betty and her Nikon D70 did the rest of the formals if she thought I was doing poorly. Aunt Betty went and got something stronger than Diet Coke.
3) People breaking rules I am told to follow. If there are not photos to be taken during the ceremony, DO NOT TAKE PHOTOS DURING THE CEREMONY BECAUSE THE PRO WILL GET PISSED. If you aren't supposed to flash, or if you don't KNOW you can flash, DONT FLASH. There's nothing more annoying then to be told "ok you have to stay in back under that balcony and don't flash" and then have Aunt Betty and her D70 light up the place with a stroboframe while standing in the second pew.
M
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08/19/2005 02:07:14 PM · #6 |
I shot a wedding a while back with a guy in the audience using the same gear as me LOL (even the 70-200 F2.8L that I had). I didn't care, he kept to himself and didn't even try to come along for any family, group, or other shots. I'm assuming he was a pro because anyone else would've tagged along not knowing the difference. Tagging along is a no-no in my opinion. If they let you go, always keep quiet. No suggestions, no "everyone look here". Nada. Zippo.
Edit: Hear!Hear! To everything Mavrik said.
Message edited by author 2005-08-19 14:11:48. |
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08/19/2005 02:14:11 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
Originally posted by bledford:
What would annoy you as a hired wedding photog? |
More specific annoyances:
1) People standing behind me shooting over my shoulder.
2) People making suggestions while I'm shooting
3) People breaking rules I am told to follow.
M |
Thank you for your input, Mavrik. I appreciate your candor on the matter and those are good reminders. I might just leave the big white lens in the bag for much of the event come to think about it. I just couldn't pass it up for a $30 rental for the whole weekend.
I've already done this at several weddings and what I've found to be nice is to get shots that I am pretty sure the photographer isn't getting and that the couple wouldn't even ask them to get. This is stuff like a setup shot of the place settings, the balloons or ribbons tied at the entrance to the event to mark the location, etc. Also, I've done a lot of late night photography of events occuring after the photographer leaves.
I will also have access to the groom at all times. I wonder if pictures of him dressing are kosher if the photographer isn't there...?
Message edited by author 2005-08-19 14:14:27. |
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08/19/2005 02:18:41 PM · #8 |
For sure...the photographer is there to get the safe shots. The formals and the 'key moments'.
Be there and get those moments and angles that the photographer won't go for because he can't afford the risk. This is a great opportunity for you...but I agree, don't take away from his print sales if that's how he works... |
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08/19/2005 02:19:35 PM · #9 |
Why don't you just take a second and talk to the photographer. Then respect what he says unless it's totally out of line. Remember, you're there as a guest, enjoy sharing their special day.
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08/19/2005 02:21:42 PM · #10 |
I agree with what others have said. To answer your last question. If you are with the groom and the paid photographer isn't around, then I say shoot away. Also, in other situations, if the photographer isn't around, again, shoot away. The bride and groom will indeed love it.
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08/19/2005 02:23:11 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Why don't you just take a second and talk to the photographer. Then respect what he says unless it's totally out of line. Remember, you're there as a guest, enjoy sharing their special day. |
Good point. Usually, part of me "enjoying" something means capturing it on film (in bits, whatever). Of course, I'm going to be respectful of (in the following order) my friend's fiancee, my friend the groom, the parents of the bride and groom, and lastly the photographer.
I probably will talk to the photographer, actually, unless he/she comes off as someone best left alone. That's good advice, thanks.
Message edited by author 2005-08-19 14:23:26. |
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08/19/2005 02:26:34 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Tagging along is a no-no in my opinion. If they let you go, always keep quiet. No suggestions, no "everyone look here". Nada. Zippo. |
I agree Lori. I basically am aiming for the photographer and everyone else to not notice me. I suppose my choice of lens was not the greatest way to meet that end. LOL. |
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08/19/2005 02:35:31 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by bledford:
... I have a long time friend getting married in San Jose tomorrow. I wanted to bring my camera to get some nice shots for him and his wife in addition to any pro. photographer they've hired. ...
... What would annoy you as a hired wedding photog? |
This is probably the wrong place to express this opinion, but ... it is your long time friend's wedding -- why not ask him what he is ok with you taking pictures of. The hired help is there to do a job, not to have or express an opinion about the event or quests.
The only issue I can see as valid for the photographer is if the contract for the event is exclusive. But who in there right mind would let the hired help dictate what their friends and family can do. However, not everyone reads the fine print, so your friend is also the one to tell you if there are any contract issues involved.
Enjoy the wedding!
David
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08/19/2005 02:59:32 PM · #14 |
I am not a professional wedding photographer, or a professional photographer of ANY sort, so keep that in mind in reading the rest of this....
But, if I were the groom, I have HIRED the pro photog. I am his "boss" if you will for that event. That said, if I (the boss) also want my friend taking pictures of ANYTHING, then my friend gets to take those pictures. Sure, the Pro might get ticked off, but who is the boss? The pro photog? No, the bride and groom are the boss. What they say goes, and ALL photogs should abide by their wishes whatever they may be.
So if the bride and groom say it's OK for you to take pictures, then I don't think it is any business of the pro to want to restrict you in any way. And you shouldn't worry about what he might be thinking. You aren't working for him, you're "working" for the bride and groom.
At least that's my opinion... I just remember when I got married (before I was interested in photography at all), the photographer wanted us to take some pictures (on and on and on...) and I finally just said "No." I was "the boss" and he was no longer going to tell me what to do. We went and did what we wanted. He followed. He may have been ticked, but he never expressed it to me... Maybe because he knew who was signing his check...
My two cents worth... All the pros go ahead and flame me now. :-)
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08/19/2005 03:03:02 PM · #15 |
The last thing you want is hired help above their station!
Personally I would take photos after the photog has left - I guess they won't be there the whole evening?
With regards to "the pro".. More and more these days it seems the pro doesn't have huge amounts more talent than an eager enthusiast. There's no harm in shooting as long as you respect the photog's job (and space!).
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08/19/2005 03:05:37 PM · #16 |
Good advice from all and I agree, a dog humping my leg would certainly annoy me whether I was pro or not.
I was asked by my friends to shoot candids at their wedding because there was going to be a pro there but the pro was only hired for about 12 shots from the wedding and reception, that were going to be posed. I made sure I knew what those shots were going to be and then also talked to the pro to make sure I knew where he was going to be so I didn't get in his way when shooting from a different angle. Last thing I wanted for them was a shot of me behind them in one of the pros contracted shots. And actually a lot of those shots were done before the guest got there so there was no issues.
The pro was very nice and (was probably even nicer knowing I didn't have a huge DLSR) did not have an issue at all with me walking around shooting. I think it also helped that he knew I was doing this as part of my gift to my friends and in no was was I going to be hurting the money he made, which by the way was a TON! <--wish I could make that bigger cause it was a LOT of money for those few shots.
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08/19/2005 03:10:51 PM · #17 |
Mainly, just try to stay out of his way, stay behind him, and avoid flash if you can so you don't off his exposures.
On the flip side, you may find that during downtimes a little shop talk goes over well. Where as you might also find they simply want to be left alone.
Usually after the first bit of conversation you should be able to guage which....and then if dialogue is cool, just be wise to know when.
The photographer might even suggest an alternative sitting angle. For example: most everyone wants the shots as they come down the aisle, etc. So the photographer usually has to be center. But there are some real nice shots that can be captured from the sides. Sadly, it's hard to be in two places at once. By being in a different location you might capture shots/angles that the hired photographer just can't do while he captures the more traditional shots and angles.
- The Saj
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08/19/2005 03:16:23 PM · #18 |
I agree with dswebb.
However, many pro photogs have a different opinion. Most are cordial and expect there to be a person or two taking shots 'over their shoulder'.
Some of the issue is WHY you are taking the pics. For yourself, fine. For the b&g, then probably fine. For a portfolio...then you may raise a few hackles.
I shot one wedding with teh permission of the b&g. Their 'photographer' was a former coworker who shoots weddings for next to nothing, for fun i suppose. A wedding photo hobbyist you might say. The b&g were boss, I introduced and explained myself and had no probs with access, the other photog, etc.
What was an issue (for me anyway) was with two shooters the fopllks in the pics never knew where to look - 1/2 at me and 1/2 at the other photog, so some shots turned out goofy looking. Also, i never offerd any pose suggestions - i was just a shadow.
I assisted at a wedding the bride's sister was there with an Oly E1. She was very much trying to get all the shots the paid pro was getting, but she waited her turn (as all photogs will say to the peanut gallery 'let me get my shots, and then you take yours'). The pro had been paid to get 100 shots. There was nothing to lose by letting sis take shots.
The more complicated event is coming up for me - a coworker is getting married and i asked if i could come and take some shots for my portfolio. She said 'Sure'. They have a hired gun, hmm, photographer. I plan on being low key, very guesty-like. I don't need 300 shots, just 20 maybe to make it look good in a portfolio. I am still debating if i want to take my lightshere...it gets LOTS of attention.
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08/19/2005 03:17:46 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Originally posted by bledford:
What would annoy you as a hired wedding photog? |
A dog humping my leg. |
ROFL.
Damn, that was so funny I swear I almost spit my LifeSavers(tm) into the monitor from the rapid "Guffaw!"
Thanks for the laugh.
Kev
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08/19/2005 03:32:20 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
More specific annoyances:
1) People standing behind me shooting over my shoulder. I warn them once. Second time I back up extremely quickly to repose the couple. I'm 6'1 and large. If I move backwards quickly, people go down. Doesn't happen a third time.
2) People making suggestions while I'm shooting - I'm the hired pro and I know how to do my job. At the last wedding, I offered to go get something to drink while Aunt Betty and her Nikon D70 did the rest of the formals if she thought I was doing poorly. Aunt Betty went and got something stronger than Diet Coke.
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If I hired you to shoot my wedding, and you did either of those to one of my guests.. I would be extremely pissed off... not at the guest, but at you.
Guests are going to take pictures at weddings. If professionals who have a problem with it need to get over it. Deal with it, it's a fact of life.
I don't care if you are the "hired pro" that doesn't mean you are the only person qualified to take pictures... it just means you are the only one being paid to take pictures. It isn't your job to police the wedding. Shut up and take pictures. Thats what you are there for, nothing else.
Unless the bridal party specifically requests guests not to take photos, the hired photographer needs to suck it up and just do his job and ignore what other people are doing.... acting like an a@@ about it isn't going to do a damn thing to his reputation... you never know when Aunt Betty has her Niece Debbie who is getting married and is in the market for a photographer but you just pissed her off. Or Uncle Mike and his son Nephew David... and you just knocked over Uncle Mike with your "back up real quick" trick. You just lost business.
Message edited by author 2005-08-19 15:35:39. |
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08/19/2005 03:37:43 PM · #21 |
True, some of the tactics described here may not be acceptable however the guests also have to realize that the photographer was hired by the bride and groom to do a job and they should stay out of their way so they can do what they have been paid to do.
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08/19/2005 03:40:23 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
True, some of the tactics described here may not be acceptable however the guests also have to realize that the photographer was hired by the bride and groom to do a job and they should stay out of their way so they can do what they have been paid to do. |
Someone else taking pictures isn't preventing the photographer from doing his job. Someone standing behind you or within the same vicinity of you shouldn't effect how you do your job.
Cut the egotistical "i'm a professional" bullsh$t and just get your shots. |
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08/19/2005 03:45:41 PM · #23 |
I'm gonna disagree with Doug on this one but I don't thinks its going to be for the reasons he wrote about. In the first place I get paid in full before the wedding takes place. The checks already been signed and is in the bank so there's little (beyond a lawsuit) that anyone can threaten me with at that point and if it gets to the point of someone just walking away then communications have already broken down and you're at a bad place as a business person.
My job at the wedding is to (A) capture key moments in the best possible exposure I can create from the situation, (B) capture artistic moments so that when a month later the bride realizes she DOES want a photojournalistic album rather than an insert style 8x10 plain jane album I have enough good shots that tell the story to supply this desire and (C) keep the ceremony and celebration flowing when my work becomes the choke point. I echo the sentiments of several others about if you want to shoot while I'm shooting I have no problem with it, just don't stand directly behind me and expect me to move for you; if they wanted your pictures so much they woulda paid you a grand or two for them. Stand to the side, get a chair and stand up far enough behind me that I have the freedom to move around. Stand on a pew for all I care. Just don't hamper me as I'm working 'cause whether I run over my alloted time to shoot because I'm an idiot or because the best man ran off to get some punch or because an amatuer photog won't move, its all the same: namely, I'll get the "credit" for it. Give me room to work and I'll reciprocate by giving everyone some time with each pose to get a shot. Keep in mind that if the photos from an amatuer photog don't turn out, nobody but the enthusiast cares. If mine don't, the bride, the bride's mom, the bride's dad, the groom, etc will all be upset with my services and I'll get phone calls as well as negative references. Once you leave the ceremony your best friend isn't going to be calling you at home asking why you didn't get the shot of Alecia's mom or the bride & groom with their elderly grandparents. Imagine if I came to your workplace and interrupted you so that at your next meeting with your boss he/she brought it up and said it was your fault.
Don't hinder the hired person from doing their job and more than likely they won't mind you shooting as many frames as you have space for. My attitude is that if I can't produce a high quality, attractive album with 3 photogs at the service and the responsiveness of the wedding party turned to one of us then I'm satisfied that my rep will reflect that and next time I won't get the referral. What I don't want is to get negative publicity because someone who has little invested and little to lose both in terms of money and time, causes me problems while I'm trying to do a job and at the same time maintain the focus on the celebratory nature of the event.
Just my angle on this one. I think you should take the equipment. It sounds like it'd be good experience for you and its fun.
Kev
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08/19/2005 03:47:54 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by sage:
Originally posted by mavrik:
More specific annoyances:
1) People standing behind me shooting over my shoulder. I warn them once. Second time I back up extremely quickly to repose the couple. I'm 6'1 and large. If I move backwards quickly, people go down. Doesn't happen a third time.
2) People making suggestions while I'm shooting - I'm the hired pro and I know how to do my job. At the last wedding, I offered to go get something to drink while Aunt Betty and her Nikon D70 did the rest of the formals if she thought I was doing poorly. Aunt Betty went and got something stronger than Diet Coke.
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If I hired you to shoot my wedding, and you did either of those to one of my guests.. I would be extremely pissed off... not at the guest, but at you.
Guests are going to take pictures at weddings. If professionals who have a problem with it need to get over it. Deal with it, it's a fact of life.
I don't care if you are the "hired pro" that doesn't mean you are the only person qualified to take pictures... it just means you are the only one being paid to take pictures. It isn't your job to police the wedding. Shut up and take pictures. Thats what you are there for, nothing else.
Unless the bridal party specifically requests guests not to take photos, the hired photographer needs to suck it up and just do his job and ignore what other people are doing.... acting like an a@@ about it isn't going to do a damn thing to his reputation... you never know when Aunt Betty has her Niece Debbie who is getting married and is in the market for a photographer but you just pissed her off. Or Uncle Mike and his son Nephew David... and you just knocked over Uncle Mike with your "back up real quick" trick. You just lost business. |
Sooo, you're willing to accept an inferior product because "Uncle Mike" got blitzed and decided the photographer needed some free advice? or your obnoxious brat "Nephew David" decided to torture the photographer who's trying to do his job instead of tying cans to the cat's tail?
Sounds like any business lost wasn't worth having in the first place.
BTW, sniping over the shoulder of the photgrapher while he's trying to shoot his carefully setup formals is essentially stealing. The kinds of clients who would tolerate, or even encourage, such behavior, honestly aren't worth working for.
I'm not talking about shooting candids at the reception, I'm talking about shooting posed formals and during the ceremony. Does "Uncle Mike" have so little confidence in the bride's (his niece's) ability to choose a competent photographer that he feels the need to shoot it himself? It's like hiring a string quartet for the reception and then encouraging "Nephew David" to set up his garage band in the other corner.
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08/19/2005 03:57:50 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by sage:
I don't care if you are the "hired pro" that doesn't mean you are the only person qualified to take pictures... it just means you are the only one being paid to take pictures. |
It does mean that you are the one they chose to entrust making the photos of their wedding to. It also means that you are the only one under a service contract. No one in this thread has said that they have a problem with other people taking photos or that they feel they're the only ones qualified. What I've said (and I think others have said it before if not in this thread) is that its one thing for anyone to take photos during a wedding; its something different to slow down or interfere or interrupt someone who is doing a job. You wouldn't think of standing up during the wedding ceremony and making a speech while the officiant is speaking would you? You might whisper to someone with you about something you see as special. In a similar fashion, don't create problems for someone who has gone to the trouble of putting their credibility and work on the line by entering into a contract where they are paid for the service they provide. When you hire an artist as opposed to a manual laborer you afford them some latitude in how they produce their work or even in what they produce. You might hire a painter to paint a portrait but if you do you aren't going to tell them how to do their work are you? That is the difference in paying a couple hundred bucks to cousin Phil who has $1500 worth of equipment and won't give you a contract that details what you get for your money and someone who is willing to invest time and money and give you a contract that details what you get for the money you pay. If I forget to get a bridal portrait or if I take one and it doesn't turn out then I'm obligated to remunerate that client and if I want to have any chance of not getting negative feedback I probably should go beyond that to give them something of value for the loss of what I promised I'd provide them. A guest on the other hand has made no promises about what photos they will deliver and is not "on the hook" at all. If you went to your best friend's wedding (by the way, why weren't you in the bridal party if you're so close) and you took 1,000 frames and they were beautiful exposures that covered the gamut of standard poses all the way through artistic interpretations of the joyous event, you wouldn't be liable to share those with anyone. You never promised you would and no one stopped you from taking them. As far as my experience goes, you could print 'em and burn 'em for all anyone would care. You could print 'em and give 'em to the couple or make wall hangings out of them. There is no legal obligation you agreed to about what you'd supply them.
All I think some people are saying is be considerate that while its your friends getting married, it is still a job for the officiant, the piano/organist, the wedding director and the photographer. Take all you want but don't bother the person who's hired to produce something for the couple.
Kev
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