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11/09/2005 10:53:29 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by srdanz:
OK, this is all good. What we need is some 10-15 years of such rule. We need to let the evangelists and right-wing conservatives take over the whole country. The only way to convince people that this is not the way to go is to let them have it.
Yes, one generation will be screwed, but in 15 years, we will turn back and ask ourselves: where are our moral values? Where is the equality? Where are we socially? How wide is the gap between haves and havenots?
Once we have all the laws in place to 'protect' us, then we will have no other choice than to reflect on the state of the union. And then we will realize that it is not about whether two men/two women can marry... and whether when we pull someone's fingernails in Cuba it is not torture... and numerous other examples.
Until then,
-Serge |
Just to start out..if anybody is keeping score
..I have quite a few friends that are gay and I am all for them having equal access to the civil liberties married men and women have. As a married, heterosexual man I say QUIT HAVING THE GOVERNMENT PROMOTE LIFESTYLE. That goes for both liberals and conservatives.
..My great grandmother was in Dr. Jerry Falwell's first congregation. He lived in my great grandma's basement while he went to the seminary. He has presided over a dozen funerals and weddings in our family over the years..However...I am not a "God wears white robes, the devil is gonna 'git u', Jesus walked on water" Christian no matter how much I have been around that my life.
..Just maybe...just maaaybee...we didn't evolve here on earth from pond scum but were part of some sophisticated "intelligent design" science experiment by highly evolved beings that could pass for a god 6 million years ago
What might be funny one day.... A being comes floating down to earth one day and says "I am the being that put life on this planet" a Christian walks up to this supreme being and asks "Are you God?"
The being replies "Well, not exactly. I am from a race of beings 3 galaxies over that evolved from pond scum and we thought this planet could use a jump start"
Sorry, God forgive me...I think too much. :-/
Message edited by author 2005-11-09 10:57:20. |
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11/09/2005 10:58:22 AM · #27 |
The Exec. Director where I work, who is a good friend as well, is in a legal union with her partner for over 10 years. She has two great kids, both boys, ages 9 and 11 who are well loved, well educated, healthy, active, go-getters who will surely improve the world we live in as soon as they're given the chance. I can't praise their family dynamic more.
On the other hand, my friends that are married in "normal" hetero relationships are all perfecly miserable and many of their kids are a complete mess. Go figure?
QUIT HAVING THE GOVERNMENT PROMOTE LIFESTYLE
BTW hokie, don't you think that gov't is promoting a lifestyle by negating homosexual marriage?
Given the divorce rates today I see marriage as being pretty meaningless and that the bond, the vows have become thinner than water. Having said that...I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. Get married...get divorced....get married again...get divorced again. Who's counting.
It's really a shame about Brad and Jen...Demi and Bruce...Michael and Lisa-Marie(Presley)...Donald Trump and whoever...Mick Jagger and Zsa Zsa?
Marriage, family...is in the heart not in the paper.
Message edited by author 2005-11-09 11:47:43. |
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11/09/2005 11:08:03 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Nope...sorry, still disagree. Marriage is a union between a man and a woman. Period. |
define union.
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11/09/2005 11:55:18 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
The Exec. Director where I work, who is a good friend as well, is in a legal union with her partner for over 10 years. She has two great kids, both boys, ages 9 and 11 who are well loved, well educated, healthy, active, go-getters who will surely improve the world we live in as soon as they're given the chance. I can't praise their family dynamic more.
On the ohter hand, my friends that are married in "normal" hetero relationships are all perfecly miserable and many of their kids are a complete mess. Go figure?
QUIT HAVING THE GOVERNMENT PROMOTE LIFESTYLE
BTW hokie, don't you think that gov't is promoting a lifestyle by negating homosexual marriage?
Given the divorce rates today I see marriage as being pretty meaningless and that the bond, the vows have become thinner than water. Having said that...I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. Get married...get divorced....get married again...get divorced again. Who's counting.
It's really a shame about Brad and Jen...Demi and Bruce...Michael and Lisa-Marie(Presley)...Donald Trump and whoever...Mick Jagger and Zsa Zsa?
Marriage, family...is in the heart not in the paper. |
That's making it sound like only homosexual relationships work out. The real issue is that people have lost track of what is important, we have put too much emphisis on getting ahead, having better than our parents had, making sure our kids have more than we had and in the process we have separated the family. Both parents work, kids always going to soccer or band or something, maybe one parent is a work a holic and never home cause they feel the need to get ahead or provide more.
Our desires to be better and become more and not only keep up with the Jones but leave their butts eatting our dust has in the long run hurt us all. Look at how eager people these days are to sue for stuff that they know they can make money off of, look how many people will rob and probably kill you cold to get a drug fix or worse yet for your shoes (don't think it doesn't happen). Our divorce rates have nothing to do with whether you are homosexual or not it has everything to do with getting your priorities and values in line.
And as far as evolution...why shouldn't it be removed from text books? They won't let you teach a supposed religious form of life but they won't let you take away their ideas either, pretty one sided. Teach all 3 ideas in school and let the family teach which is the proper in their minds better yet don't teach it at all! Teach science and what everything is made of NOT how it is made. Let the parents take some role and teach whichever they believe. That is if we can get some parents and kids that will stay home long enough to enteract at all with each other.
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11/09/2005 11:58:44 AM · #30 |
hey, i hope any gay texans out there will consider making the trip up here to canada. the door is open and the welcome mat is out...
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11/09/2005 12:00:57 PM · #31 |
Just a thought.....as I see most here support gay union/marriage. How about a scientific approach...the 'natural order' of the world. Men and women are the only way to procreate. (please exclude artifical insemination, surrogate, everything else, etc) To me it seems to be the 'natural' order of things. On a religious approach.....(my belief believing in God) God made man and woman to worship him and procreate. I guess it's all in how you look at it.
I understand how liberals look at it...as I was quite liberal in my younger days...as I've grown older and 'walked' in some differnet shoes I've become much more conservative. I have researched, asked questions, and reflected on different things....for my own satisfaction and to be able to explain and pass on my beliefs to my children.
Unfortunately we live in a society that is "I want it and I want it now"...along with, "well, if it feels good and I like it, accept it/change it!"...and it is that mentality which has put our nation in such upheaval... :/
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11/09/2005 12:02:02 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by cmeier:
hey, i hope any gay texans out there will consider making the trip up here to canada. the door is open and the welcome mat is out... |
& they could probably claim refugee status as well ..
persecuted in their own country ...
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11/09/2005 12:14:07 PM · #33 |
I had to put this thread on ignore for a while because I was afraid of what I might say...but I'll just say that while I support the right of any civil union or marriage when two people are in love (straight, gay, bi, whatever) I think you should realize it's not JUST Texas...to be ashamed to be a Texan for the homophobic mentality that the majority of voters here and in all other states exhibit is wrong.
Please don't give my state...the place I was born, the state where 3 previous generations of my family were born... a bad reputation over something that is not merely a Texas problem. It's a problem much bigger than Texas, and that's pretty damned big.
I hope this doesn't turn into some big ol' Dixie Chicks vs. Toby Keith brawl now. ;)
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11/09/2005 12:26:21 PM · #34 |
i dont think its allowed in maryland either...my best friends brother is gay and he said he would have to go to Mass. to get married. I hate when the government tries to tell people what to do with their own lives when its not hurting anyone. Who cares, I wont lose any sleep if they marry. Hell, I cant even get my boyfriend to commit to marriage after 5 yrs. So, Congrats to those who can find someone who will.
Originally posted by laurielblack:
I had to put this thread on ignore for a while because I was afraid of what I might say...but I'll just say that while I support the right of any civil union or marriage when two people are in love (straight, gay, bi, whatever) I think you should realize it's not JUST Texas...to be ashamed to be a Texan for the homophobic mentality that the majority of voters here and in all other states exhibit is wrong.
Please don't give my state...the place I was born, the state where 3 previous generations of my family were born... a bad reputation over something that is not merely a Texas problem. It's a problem much bigger than Texas, and that's pretty damned big.
I hope this doesn't turn into some big ol' Dixie Chicks vs. Toby Keith brawl now. ;) |
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11/09/2005 12:34:37 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
The Exec. Director where I work, who is a good friend as well, is in a legal union with her partner for over 10 years. She has two great kids, both boys, ages 9 and 11 who are well loved, well educated, healthy, active, go-getters who will surely improve the world we live in as soon as they're given the chance. I can't praise their family dynamic more.
On the other hand, my friends that are married in "normal" hetero relationships are all perfecly miserable and many of their kids are a complete mess. Go figure?
QUIT HAVING THE GOVERNMENT PROMOTE LIFESTYLE
BTW hokie, don't you think that gov't is promoting a lifestyle by negating homosexual marriage?
Given the divorce rates today I see marriage as being pretty meaningless and that the bond, the vows have become thinner than water. Having said that...I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. Get married...get divorced....get married again...get divorced again. Who's counting.
It's really a shame about Brad and Jen...Demi and Bruce...Michael and Lisa-Marie(Presley)...Donald Trump and whoever...Mick Jagger and Zsa Zsa?
Marriage, family...is in the heart not in the paper. |
I wonder what the rate of gay couples separating is (just curious, really)?
BTW, isn't the (U.S.) government "promoting a lifestyle" when it says things like, for example, you can't take certain drugs, abuse children, drive drunk...?
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11/09/2005 12:43:15 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by colyla:
Just a thought.....as I see most here support gay union/marriage. How about a scientific approach...the 'natural order' of the world. Men and women are the only way to procreate. (please exclude artifical insemination, surrogate, everything else, etc) To me it seems to be the 'natural' order of things. On a religious approach.....(my belief believing in God) God made man and woman to worship him and procreate. I guess it's all in how you look at it.
I understand how liberals look at it...as I was quite liberal in my younger days...as I've grown older and 'walked' in some differnet shoes I've become much more conservative. I have researched, asked questions, and reflected on different things....for my own satisfaction and to be able to explain and pass on my beliefs to my children.
Unfortunately we live in a society that is "I want it and I want it now"...along with, "well, if it feels good and I like it, accept it/change it!"...and it is that mentality which has put our nation in such upheaval... :/ |
This opinion assumes that marriage is only for the production of children. Many hetrosexual people marry and do not have children through choice so marriage cannot be purely be procreation.
Marriage is a way of officially one person commiting to another person, demonstrating their love and their intention of sharing everything and staying together for the indeterminate future. In a time when so many people appear frightened of committing, this should be applauded not derided.
If people of the same sex wish to to legally tie themselves into this form of contract in a civil ceremony, why should it be denied? Being married in a religious ceremony brings up many more problems as I can tolerate people not agreeing with homosexuality within their Church. This is a matter that each Church must decide within its own members.
Homosexuals do not affect other people's lives anymore than hetrosexuals do - as somebody else has said - what goes on in my home and my bedroom is entirely up to me and no-one else knows or should care.
P
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11/09/2005 12:51:12 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by queanbeez:
Hell, I cant even get my boyfriend to commit to marriage after 5 yrs. So, Congrats to those who can find someone who will.
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There's still time! My son, Legalbeagle, only asked Helen to marry him after over nine years together!
We didn't say congratulations, we all said "About time!"
Keep hanging in there!
:)
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11/09/2005 12:57:56 PM · #38 |
| Well, I can see the reason for concern in Texas. After all, we know what happens when homosexual marriage is allowed. |
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11/09/2005 01:02:02 PM · #39 |
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11/09/2005 01:07:31 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by dahved:
I wonder what the rate of gay couples separating is (just curious, really)?
BTW, isn't the (U.S.) government "promoting a lifestyle" when it says things like, for example, you can't take certain drugs, abuse children, drive drunk...? |
I think the rate of gay couples breaking up is a little higher than hetero married couples. That makes sense. First. Gay or not. Couples break up for human reasons, which are varied and wide as the sea. But, gay couples have less "commitment" issues like children etc to keep them togehter even when they want to leave. My parents stayed together a lot longer because they had to rasie my sister and I. Once my sister was on her own..my parents split. But then they got back together so..go figure.
As far as promoting lifestyles..
Abusing children and Driving Drunk are no lifestyle issues, they are civil liberty issues. Children are not afforded the same adult rights so they need protection of the courts against things you or I would kick the crap out of someone for.
Driving Drunk endangers others and therefore the old adage "Your right to swing your fist stops at my nose".
Drug use IS a lifestyle issue I would like the government out of. If you want to screw yourself up on your own time...go ahead. But when your liver fails, or you get aids from IV drug use, or you lose your job because your employer doesn't want a drug user in their employ..don't cry to me or yell to the government to bail you out with unemployment, food stamps, drug rehab, or healthcare.
Message edited by author 2005-11-09 13:08:17. |
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11/09/2005 01:08:54 PM · #41 |
Only interesting if you are a religious person! Why should the religious beliefs of some affect the lives of non-religious people? Is it impossible to have a civil marriage in the USA?
If the two homosexuals who wish to marry are religious and want a religious ceremony then there is a problem. otherwise I can't see why it is illegal!
P
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11/09/2005 01:11:40 PM · #42 |
What is the foundation of marriage? Where did it originate? Answer those questions and you'll have the answer to yours...
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11/09/2005 01:17:29 PM · #43 |
1) If opinions on a 'morality-influenced issue' are split merely by geography, then minds must clearly be easily shaped by local 'environmental' pressures. Therefore, such issues should not be considered suitable matters for enforcible legislation but topics for personal choice.
2) @sabphoto
And as far as evolution...why shouldn't it be removed from text books? They won't let you teach a supposed religious form of life but they won't let you take away their ideas either, pretty one sided. Teach all 3 ideas in school and let the family teach which is the proper in their minds better yet don't teach it at all! Teach science and what everything is made of NOT how it is made. Let the parents take some role and teach whichever they believe. That is if we can get some parents and kids that will stay home long enough to enteract at all with each other.
There's no logic in comparing an opinion (again, a geography-specific opinion at that) with a universal fact. And there's certainly no logic in teaching children half a fact. Also, comparing religion with science is not a morality vs. immorality issue. |
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11/09/2005 01:18:53 PM · #44 |
REV. TYRONE QUEEN
Oh the irony of it all ;)
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11/09/2005 01:19:43 PM · #45 |
i think it's really selfish for anyone to try and legislate their BELIEFS on either people.
i'm very frustrated right now, so forgive me if everything i say doesn't make sense.
let's assume for just one moment that gay people "choose" to be gay. (i don't believe it one bit, but i'll give people the benefit of the doubt.) let's say that's a personal choice made completely within one's own mind.
now let's look at someone who chooses to be presbyterian (many would argue that they are "born" into a church instead, but in the interest of fairness let's say religious following is a choice as well). that's a personal choice made completely within one's own mind.
what would happen if we tried to pass a law that said presbyterians could not get married. it's a ridiculous thought, right? it's completely out of the question.
so why, therefore, is it perfectly acceptable to ban someone else's marriage based solely on the context of a personal choice those people have made? that is the fundamental flaw in the argument.
--
the constitution in this country does not put any restrictions on life or liberty. with the exception of slavery and prohibition, both of which have since been abolished, the constitution and the bill of rights -- the founding principles of the united states -- have been all about GRANTING rights to the citizens of this country. why should we turn that on its head now and start using those founding principles to restrict the rights of certain citizens? what gives people the right?
so, coming back to my original point, what gives people the right to start legislating their belief systems in our democratic system that is supposed to be open to people of all beliefs and religions. what makes your god so much more fundamentally sound than any other? what makes your god fundamentally sound at all? it's something that you BELIEVE in, which is absolutely your right.
i think it's truly unfortunate that individuals are willing to completely write people off based on one small facet of their being. |
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11/09/2005 01:20:26 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
What is the foundation of marriage? Where did it originate? Answer those questions and you'll have the answer to yours... |
The marriage of two people may have begun through the Church but has changed and evolved over the years in such a way that it is now a civil, legal contract. In the UK a registrar ( someone employed by the state to carryout the legal side of things) has to be present else the marriage is not official and legal documentshave to be produced to prove one is single or officially divorced in the courts before banns can be called. Divorce has to take place in a court of law. All of these points make it a legal union not a religious one. The vows one takes church are not legally binding else we'd all probably be in jail!
Marriage is a legal contract that some people choose to make official under the auspices of their church.
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11/09/2005 01:23:21 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by Riponlady:
Only interesting if you are a religious person! Why should the religious beliefs of some affect the lives of non-religious people? Is it impossible to have a civil marriage in the USA?
If the two homosexuals who wish to marry are religious and want a religious ceremony then there is a problem. otherwise I can't see why it is illegal!
P |
It is only "illegal" because we have the Christian jihadist's in America forcing it on us.
I find it amusing we go half way across the world to fight right wing extremism when we have enough of it right here in our own country :-/
Study the history of the islamic religion starting back in 570-632 AD. The prophet Mohammad bascially had two sects break apart over this extremism when he died, The Sunni and the Shite of today. Modern day right wing extremists are not that different from the Sunni's, especially if they were not kept from dominating government institutions.
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11/09/2005 01:25:17 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
What is the foundation of marriage? Where did it originate? Answer those questions and you'll have the answer to yours... |
Human beings are living organisms that grow and evolve.
WHO CARES WHERE IT ORIGINATED!!!
Things are adopted, changed, enhanced everyday...all over the planet(universe?)...since the beginning of time.
Get with the program... ;)
Do you own the concept of unions and marriage?
Haute Cuisine started with the Medici...does that mean the French or our present day fusionists shouldn't dabble or have access to their concepts and theories?
Message edited by author 2005-11-09 13:27:15. |
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11/09/2005 01:31:45 PM · #49 |
Human beings will have a hard time evolving if you try to keep things going with two men together. ;^)
I suppose the liberals in this forum are all in favor of removing God from the Pledge of Allegiance?
Husband and Wife. So what are two men or two women joined in holy matrimony? It and It? He and He? Come on people. Unbelievable.
Ok - let two he/shes get together legally - sign a contract, whatever...it's still not a marriage.
Having fun yet? ;^)
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11/09/2005 01:35:04 PM · #50 |
Sex, politics and religion all in one thread! How can I resist!
I don't intend to spend my life deciding how other peole live, who they can love, and who they can make commitments to--it's hard enough making those decisions for myself.
But as long as the government under which I live grants special rights to people based on their willingness to commit their lives to each other, I will defend the right of any two people to make that commitment. It is a legal union. It grants two adults the right to tax breaks regardless of whether they have children in common. It grants them the right to inherit each others' property without a will. It grants them the right to make medical and legal decisions on behalf of the other when that person is not able to make those decisions themselves.
The government does not limit any adult's ability to marry based on any other criteria than gender...a trait that one does select for themselves. If the government will not recognize the peculiar nature of the contracts it will and will not honor as being flawed and allow same sex marriage, then the laws and benefits should be abolished. Individuals would then be free to form corporations to protect their economic interests and create wills, living wills, custodial contracts, etc. to cover the other benefits provided by the marriage contract which the state now recognizes for only a portion of the populace.
What your religion does is up to you and those who think like you...unless, of course, your a Mormon who wants to practice polygamy. But that's probably a topic for another day.
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