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11/09/2005 08:56:41 PM · #251 |
I'm so sick of all this BS bible crap being put out there as "truth".
Who the hell are any of you to claim that the bible is the final word and if you don't believe it your wrong?
I think you're all delusional and that the bible was written by men to control weak minded people with stories of magic.
god bless our troops? I don't think god would approve of dropping cluster bombs over a city full of civilians.
suicide killings in the name of allah? I don't think allah would approve of a suicide bomber blowing up a hospital.
not MY god. and MY god is right, and YOU and YOUR god are wrong.
how do you like that?
who the hell is right? don't you all realize that NO ONE IS RIGHT?
just keep praying, no one is listening to you, not until you learn a little love and tolerance.
go ahead and attack me, it's all fearmongers seem to know how to do anyways.
Message edited by author 2005-11-09 21:05:24.
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11/09/2005 09:06:36 PM · #252 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
Technically, I belive the spaghetti monster theory falls under intelligent design. However, seeing as there may be evidence for design. I do not believe there is enough evidence to point to a specific designer. Hence, I do not support the teaching of the spaghetti monster as the designer, nor God, etc.
Just simply, that there is evidence that may point to an intelligent design.
(ie: picking up a violin, there is evidence that it is designed. How ever to say it is an original Stradivarius would be wrong because there is not such evidence.)
Likewise, the same, I don't advocate denoting a particular claimant to said design. Just the noting of observances that may indicate such. |
Fair enough.
Though I've said I'm agnostic, I'm a bit partial to the Spaghetti Monster. Trying to throw a semblance of humor in the pot. Take it or leave it  |
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11/09/2005 09:06:39 PM · #253 |
Amen Eric! This thread is just too damn entertaining!
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11/09/2005 09:07:34 PM · #254 |
| ericlimon, I certainly think you hit on some "truths" in your statements. I don't agree with everything you said, but have to agree with the basic thrust of it. The God that I personally believe in, would not be happy with any of what is currently going on in the world. |
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11/09/2005 09:25:44 PM · #255 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
Originally posted by "KaDi":
He died because of the difficulty of getting him to the Netherlands or any other sympathetic country with an appropriate level of health care resources. |
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This makes no !@#$% sense to me? Any homosexual man in the U.S. can get medical treatment...??? And if he doesn't have any medical coverage hospitals still have to provide reasonable life-saving treatment. And there is no debtor prison in the U.S. And if he had no financial assets...then he had nothing to lose. (I'm presuming such as to die because of refusing to let loose one's assets would be either greed or stupidity and I don't think that was the case.) Just none of this makes sense. There has to be more details.
From what it sounds like to me it was more of an immigration issue than anything to deal with homosexuality.
Heck, you could smuggle someone from Ghana to California and get them free medical care as an illegal immigrant.[/quote]
Please read more carefully. They were living in GHANA when he became ill. Ghana does not have very good medical care. His partner (my uncle) needed to get him to a country where he could get health care. This was complicated by the fact that my uncle was "only" a friend. Not a US issue exclusively, but still illustrative of the fact that despite their 20+ year commitment to each other, their legal relationship stood in the way of getting life-saving medical treatment. And in the US it is an issue for the gay community as well...If my husband is sick and can not sign for treatment himself I can and that is because the government recognizes our marriage.
Message edited by author 2005-11-09 21:32:32.
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11/09/2005 09:43:48 PM · #256 |
Does anyone know if the Bible itself, either old or new testament, that specifically prohibits, or says a gay lifestyle or marriage are not Judeo/Christian values?
Message edited by author 2005-11-09 21:48:56. |
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11/09/2005 09:44:06 PM · #257 |
Originally posted by KaDi:
Please read more carefully. They were living in GHANA when he became ill. Ghana does not have very good medical care. His partner (my uncle) needed to get him to a country where he could get health care. This was complicated by the fact that my uncle was "only" a friend. Not a US issue exclusively, but still illustrative of the fact that despite their 20+ year commitment to each other, their legal relationship stood in the way of getting life-saving medical treatment. And in the US it is an issue for the gay community as well...If my husband is sick and can not sign for treatment himself I can and that is because the government recognizes our marriage. |
Thank you KaDi... A VERY relative point that I think has been the thrust of what some of us have been trying to get across. It's not that we're asking for any "special" privileges. Just the acknowledgment that we matter to our partners and to ourselves...
Message edited by author 2005-11-09 21:44:33. |
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11/09/2005 09:44:48 PM · #258 |
Originally posted by persimon:
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Originally posted by srdanz:
Originally posted by res0m50r:
...This argument wouldn't even exist with out religion and religion wouldn't exist without a God and the Bible. |
I take exception to this statement: Christianity and monotheism are not the first nor the last religion in this world. So, please do not tie the two together. |
I said God and the Bible, not Christianity. Yes, to get this overwith, my argument is based totally off the FACTS given to us by the Word of God, the Bible. |
There is a lot of history in the bible, but it is also filled with the beliefs and writings of men. I couldn't very well use Shakespeare or the daVinci Code to argue a point now could I? Provide sound arguments without the use of Christian dogma. |
Man does use just that to argue points. Matter of fact can you tell me one fact you use today that doesn't come from another person? You utilize your sense to come to a conclusion based on science, math, history, geography, books and so on. All of these tools are man made or man deriven. The truth is that the Bible is 100% fact on all historical accounts, geographical accounts, scientific accounts. If you can point out an "error" in the Bible please so me I have been looking for a long time. I would love to see one. |
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11/09/2005 09:46:31 PM · #259 |
Scott, just wanted to let you know, that while not actively participating in the discussion, there are people reading this that agree with you 100%. Everything here has pretty much been said, said again, and run into the ground a few more times. You either support gay marriage or you don't. I don't. I agree with all Scott has said, as do others I've shared this thread with, and if we both weren't so against gay marriage I'd probably ask him to marry me.
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11/09/2005 10:03:01 PM · #260 |
Originally posted by ibkc:
Scott, just wanted to let you know, that while not actively participating in the discussion, there are people reading this that agree with you 100%. Everything here has pretty much been said, said again, and run into the ground a few more times. You either support gay marriage or you don't. I don't. I agree with all Scott has said, as do others I've shared this thread with, and if we both weren't so against gay marriage I'd probably ask him to marry me. |
LOL - I like your good-hearted, spirited approach to the topic, even if it differs from mine. :-) |
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11/09/2005 10:15:32 PM · #261 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Does anyone know if the Bible itself, either old or new testament, that specifically prohibits, or says a gay lifestyle or marriage are not Judeo/Christian values? |
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
Romans 1:18-32 ( New Testament )
I think that words like "sinful desires", "shameful lusts", "unnatural", "indecent acts", and "perversion" pretty much indicates that homosexual behaviours are not reflective of Judeo/Christian values as defined in scripture.
The destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah in the Old Testament shows that His ( God's ) values didn't change much over the course of history.
Note: edited to add the following:
Lest anyone misunderstand biblical teaching, I want to add that the verses above are immediately followed by this:
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?
For the one attempting to emulate Judeo/Christian values, therefore, it is not an option to pass judgement on the character of an individual, even while examining their actions in light of scripture. We are ALL sinners, deserving death. Look again at the list at the end of the first quote. Scripture says that ALL of the things in that list are deserving of death. None any worse than the other.
Message edited by author 2005-11-09 22:25:57. |
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11/09/2005 10:23:44 PM · #262 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Does anyone know if the Bible itself, either old or new testament, that specifically prohibits, or says a gay lifestyle or marriage are not Judeo/Christian values? |
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
Romans 1:18-32 ( New Testament )
I think that words like "sinful desires", "shameful lusts", "unnatural", "indecent acts", and "perversion" pretty much indicates that homosexual behaviours are not reflective of Judeo/Christian values as defined in scripture.
The destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah in the Old Testament shows that His ( God's ) values didn't change much over the course of history. |
And let's continue to cut off the hands of those who steal, condemn those who dance, and any woman who speaks back to her husband. After all, that's in the Bible too, right?!?
EDIT: And, yes, I've read it from cover to cover multiple times...
Message edited by author 2005-11-09 22:24:42. |
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11/09/2005 10:27:16 PM · #263 |
do you believe in the bible ron?
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11/09/2005 10:37:53 PM · #264 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Romans 1:18-32 ( New Testament )
I think that words like "sinful desires", "shameful lusts", "unnatural", "indecent acts", and "perversion" pretty much indicates that homosexual behaviours are not reflective of Judeo/Christian values as defined in scripture.
The destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah in the Old Testament shows that His ( God's ) values didn't change much over the course of history. |
The Bible was written by MEN, during a time when slavery was not only permissable, it was condoned. It was also a time when women were considered property. "Religion" has been the justification for more death and destruction than any other single excuse on the face of the earth, yet we still can't seem to let go of the fearmongering it has brought since the age of man. You can call it what you will, but to me (and this is my own personal opinion) it will always be the justification of one belief over another, when in fact all beliefs probably hold the same basic sacred truth. Treat everybody like you'd like to be treated yourself. I know it's not the answer to all of life's questions or the question of which religion (if any) is the true "Word" of God. Part of faith and forgiveness is living your life true to your word and letting others live as they believe... I think that has gotten lost somehow in the translation over the years...
Yes, we're wearing out this topic to the point of threadbare jeans, but I can't let it end on a note of intolerance... (I'm sure others have responded since i began this dissertation)
Message edited by author 2005-11-09 22:39:18. |
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11/09/2005 10:38:19 PM · #265 |
Originally posted by ericlimon:
do you believe in the bible ron? |
I'm not answering for RonB, but want to state that what he quoted is what I believe. I don't think the point gets any clearer at all.
I also agree with ScottK and Saj points so far. Just don't feel like repeating them and doubt I could do so with such clarity. |
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11/09/2005 10:44:31 PM · #266 |
Originally posted by SJCarter:
And let's continue to cut off the hands of those who steal, condemn those who dance, and any woman who speaks back to her husband. After all, that's in the Bible too, right?!?
EDIT: And, yes, I've read it from cover to cover multiple times... |
You may have READ it, but I don't believe you remember it.
a) Nowhere in the Bible, to my knowledge, is there any reference to cutting off the hands of one who steals
b) Nowhere in the Bible, to my knowledge, is there any condemnation ( other than ridicule from David's wife ) to those who dance
c) Nowhere in the Bible, to my knowledge, is there any condemnation for a woman who speaks back to her husband ( in private, of course - to do so in public is frowned upon - as it would be for the husband as well )
So, no, I don't believe that "That's in the Bible, too."
But feel free to educate me. |
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11/09/2005 10:44:52 PM · #267 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
The truth is that the Bible is 100% fact on all historical accounts, geographical accounts, scientific accounts. If you can point out an "error" in the Bible please so me I have been looking for a long time. I would love to see one. |
The bible is not 100% fact on all acccounts(if you're meaning in the literal sense, if not then just ignore the rest). The bible is made up of several different literary forms. Just to name a few: allegories, legends, songs, parables, letters, and so on. I do understand there are a lot of different religions that do believe the bible to be 100% accurate literally and that's just simply not the case...IMO :) |
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11/09/2005 10:50:03 PM · #268 |
First Ron, is this the only scripture that refers to homosexuality?
Secondly, from the passage you quoted above, it appears that god used "unnatural relations" as punishment. Is the Bible saying that all people who have homosexual relations are being punished for some wrong done to god? Are there not good homosexual Christians, or is that an oxymoron? |
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11/09/2005 10:56:04 PM · #269 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Are there not good homosexual Christians, or is that an oxymoron? |
Logically, it would go like this:
Since (in Christian dogma) none of us are without sin, all Christians are sinners. Therefore, if it is possible to be a "good Christian" at all, then a sinner can be a good Christian.
Practically speaking, there are plenty of Christian denominations that do not categorically disenfranchise homosexuals, and quite a few that explicitly allow them to be priests/ministers/whatever.
Robt. |
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11/09/2005 10:57:58 PM · #270 |
Originally posted by colyla:
Originally posted by res0m50r:
The truth is that the Bible is 100% fact on all historical accounts, geographical accounts, scientific accounts. If you can point out an "error" in the Bible please so me I have been looking for a long time. I would love to see one. |
The bible is not 100% fact on all acccounts(if you're meaning in the literal sense, if not then just ignore the rest). The bible is made up of several different literary forms. Just to name a few: allegories, legends, songs, parables, letters, and so on. I do understand there are a lot of different religions that do believe the bible to be 100% accurate literally and that's just simply not the case...IMO :) |
//dictionary.reference.com/search?q=literally
Literally - In a literal manner; word for word: translated the Greek passage literally. In a literal or strict sense: Don't take my remarks literally.
If you are refering to the translation of the Bible I cannot comment on the accuracy of each translation. If you are refering to the historical, geographical, scientific or spiritual accuracy of the Bible it is 100% accurate. I have not been able to find one error in terms of the above accounts. |
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11/09/2005 11:01:12 PM · #271 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Are there not good homosexual Christians, or is that an oxymoron? |
Logically, it would go like this:
Since (in Christian dogma) none of us are without sin, all Christians are sinners. Therefore, if it is possible to be a "good Christian" at all, then a sinner can be a good Christian. |
Logically I agree with you and do believe that all people are sinners and it is possible to be a good Christian and still be a sinner. |
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11/09/2005 11:03:45 PM · #272 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Are there not good homosexual Christians, or is that an oxymoron? |
Logically, it would go like this:
Since (in Christian dogma) none of us are without sin, all Christians are sinners. Therefore, if it is possible to be a "good Christian" at all, then a sinner can be a good Christian.
Practically speaking, there are plenty of Christian denominations that do not categorically disenfranchise homosexuals, and quite a few that explicitly allow them to be priests/ministers/whatever.
Robt. |
You read my mind and answered my next question in your second paragraph. So if this is the case (that all Christians are sinners and we shouldn't be judgemental towards each other), then why are certain Christian sects targeting homosexuality as being so bad? |
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11/09/2005 11:03:45 PM · #273 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Originally posted by colyla:
Originally posted by res0m50r:
The truth is that the Bible is 100% fact on all historical accounts, geographical accounts, scientific accounts. If you can point out an "error" in the Bible please so me I have been looking for a long time. I would love to see one. |
The bible is not 100% fact on all acccounts(if you're meaning in the literal sense, if not then just ignore the rest). The bible is made up of several different literary forms. Just to name a few: allegories, legends, songs, parables, letters, and so on. I do understand there are a lot of different religions that do believe the bible to be 100% accurate literally and that's just simply not the case...IMO :) |
//dictionary.reference.com/search?q=literally
Literally - In a literal manner; word for word: translated the Greek passage literally. In a literal or strict sense: Don't take my remarks literally.
If you are refering to the translation of the Bible I cannot comment on the accuracy of each translation. If you are refering to the historical, geographical, scientific or spiritual accuracy of the Bible it is 100% accurate. I have not been able to find one error in terms of the above accounts. |
Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant. I thought you were referring to 'biblical fundamentalism'...connecting a doctrine of inerrancy with the doctrine of inspiration. An example being...the seven-day creation story in Genesis...some people believe this to be a literal 7 days in what you and I would believe is 7 days. |
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11/09/2005 11:06:21 PM · #274 |
Originally posted by ericlimon:
do you believe in the bible ron? |
Yes. But.
Before I answer, one thing must be made clear - the Bible consists of two TESTAMENTS - the OLD and the NEW.
Just as in the modern era where, for legal purposes, a NEW "Last Will and Testament" makes obsolete the directives of an earlier "Last Will and Testament", so, with the Bible, the NEW Testament makes obsolete the directives of the OLD Testament.
Thus, the endless quoting of the anti-Bible crowd about the "laws and commandments" from the OLD Testament is really not a valid debating point - unless the directive is also included as part of the New Testament.
Now, that doesn't make the OLD Testament less valuable - it IS a monumental reference book on the culture, religion, history, art, literature, etc. not only of the era, but also a detailed narrative about the character and nature of God.
So, Yes, I DO believe in the Bible, but I believe in the WHOLE Bible. For morals and values, I rely on the NEW Testament. For the nature of God, and for history, culture, etc. I value Both. For what Olyuzi asked, I quoted the NEW ( for the values ) and referenced the OLD ( to show that God's nature ( values ) hadn't changed ).
Thanks for asking.
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11/09/2005 11:12:05 PM · #275 |
I just read the first few posts and then I thought, you know what??? I do not want to know what your views are on this kind of issue, I am afraid it will colour my judgement
IMHO I don't think politics should be discussed here, I am concerned about the repercussions...
Just my couple o pennies :)) |
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