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11/12/2005 08:08:45 PM · #526 |
| I give up... You win... :-) LOL |
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11/12/2005 08:10:00 PM · #527 |
Man, I wonder what Adam and his kids ate that let him so live so gosh darn long! Just think what we would see if we could live almost a thousand years....
I think I'm going to quit school. Who needs to pay for an education when you can learn so much here!
This is all in jest. Ignore me. I have to go back and study my evolutionary biology now (seriously, I'm actually taking that course right now) |
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11/12/2005 08:15:07 PM · #528 |
Originally posted by RonB:
..to the best of my knowledge only ONE had the ability to speak. |
What does ablity to speak have anything to do with it? You said ophis meant satan, not snake. Bible.org says it means snake.
Originally posted by RonB:
Do you not share information with others? |
Sure, but you're implying that an all-knowing being wouldn't also share such info.
Originally posted by RonB:
What makes you think
a) that some species became extinct BEFORE the flood?
b) that EVERY animal on the ark was mentioned in scripture?
c) animals were unable to reproduce while ON the ark? It was just shy of a year from the time that they entered the ark until they left. |
Just trying to help you out a bit because otherwise:
a) There would be dinosaurs and mammoths on the Ark.
b) Every animal didn't have to be mentioned, but I'd expect a tyrannosaurus rex to attract some attention.
c) Animals could certainly reproduce, but the ark had enough of a space issue without adding to the population (the annual food requirements alone would very likely outweigh the animals). |
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11/12/2005 08:15:17 PM · #529 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
What did they eat on the Ark? Feeding the carivores must've been tricky without a warehouse full of Alpo. |
a) Vegatation that was brought with them. E.g. Hay.
b) There were no carnivores on the Ark. All animals up until that time were Herbivores. Those that became carnivores did so AFTER the flood.
Genesis 1:30 "And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food." And it was so. |
So not only were they every species but also hay to feed them? Have you any idea how much would be needed and how much room that would take up?
Surely you can see that many of these stories have been written to teach a lesson in simple terms that people can understand the underlying meaning, and cannot be taken literally? They were written by people weren't they?
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11/12/2005 08:17:45 PM · #530 |
Originally posted by pidge:
Man, I wonder what Adam and his kids ate that let him so live so gosh darn long! Just think what we would see if we could live almost a thousand years....
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Obviously hay if RonB is to be believed!
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11/12/2005 08:19:21 PM · #531 |
Originally posted by RonB:
a) Vegatation that was brought with them. E.g. Hay.
b) There were no carnivores on the Ark. All animals up until that time were Herbivores. Those that became carnivores did so AFTER the flood.
Genesis 1:30 "And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food." And it was so. |
The Tyrannosarus rex, Giganotosaurus, Allososaurus, Velociraptor, Megalosaurus, Eoraptor, etc., etc., etc. all ate some combination of grasses, vegetables, roots and fruits, GeneralE. That's why they needed those mouths full of extremely sharp teeth. |
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11/12/2005 08:20:39 PM · #532 |
Originally posted by Riponlady:
OK RonB Thanks for the opinion.
Another question.
We know the size of the ark from the scriptures. How did 2 of every species get on there? And had the room to reproduce? And the population started again then? Incest and world travel repeated? How long did Noah and sons/wives live?
P |
1) The animals came to Noah - he did not have to go out and "collect" them. Genesis 7:8-9 says "Pairs of clean and unclean animals, of birds and of all creatures that move along the ground, male and female, [/b]came to Noah and entered the ark[/b], as God had commanded Noah.
2) The ark was three stories high and was the equivalent in size to over 550 modern railroad stock cars. It has been estimated that 40,000 animals could be comfortably accomodated in only 170 modern railroad stock cars - less than 1/3 of the capacity of the ark. That left plenty of room for food and water for the all, and for Noah and his family.
3) It wasn't only Noad and his SONS. It was Noah and his wife, and their three sons and their wives. Marriage was still permitted between cousins ( not incest ).
4) Noah was 600 when he entered the ark, 601 when he exited. He lived a total of 930 years. Shem lived 600 years Scripture doesn't record how long Ham and Japheth lived. |
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11/12/2005 08:26:50 PM · #533 |
Originally posted by RonB:
There were females as well. |
Yes, I know. I was just making a remark back to the OP given your all-male reply, BUT: in the Book of Jubilees, Adam and Eve have two daughters (Awân and Azûrâ) and about a dozen sons. According to Genesis and other later sources, Cain had a twin sister and Abel had two twin sisters or Cain had a twin sister named Lebuda and Abel a twin sister named Qelimath. In at least one source Cain's, twin sister is named Luluwa, and Abel's twin sister is named Aklia. In other words, even the bible's authors aren't quite sure.
Originally posted by RonB:
Cain was marked because several hundred years later... one of his cousins would not know who he was, apart from the mark, and might erroneously kill him. |
So after hundreds of years, someone might know enough to WANT to kill him (a major thou shalt not) yet not know who he was? Interesting. |
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11/12/2005 08:32:35 PM · #534 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Riponlady:
OK RonB Thanks for the opinion.
Another question.
We know the size of the ark from the scriptures. How did 2 of every species get on there? And had the room to reproduce? And the population started again then? Incest and world travel repeated? How long did Noah and sons/wives live?
P |
1) The animals came to Noah - he did not have to go out and "collect" them. Genesis 7:8-9 says "Pairs of clean and unclean animals, of birds and of all creatures that move along the ground, male and female, [/b]came to Noah and entered the ark[/b], as God had commanded Noah.
2) The ark was three stories high and was the equivalent in size to over 550 modern railroad stock cars. It has been estimated that 40,000 animals could be comfortably accomodated in only 170 modern railroad stock cars - less than 1/3 of the capacity of the ark. That left plenty of room for food and water for the all, and for Noah and his family.
3) It wasn't only Noad and his SONS. It was Noah and his wife, and their three sons and their wives. Marriage was still permitted between cousins ( not incest ).
4) Noah was 600 when he entered the ark, 601 when he exited. He lived a total of 930 years. Shem lived 600 years Scripture doesn't record how long Ham and Japheth lived. |
And Noah and his 3 sons built this by themselves?
And I don't think there was sufficient room for the food and water for 40,000 animals. My mare ate 5 bales of hay a week + being out at grass for most of the day.That's 260 + bales per year. Elephants eat more! OK smaller animals eat less but those TRex's must have got through quite a bit! Water tkes up a huge amount of room. Now I assumed they got water from the rain but you say they took it with them so again add on gallons and gallons per day......
I know Noah had son + their wives. Obviously they were permanenetly pregnant for 600 years!
I still don't know how they got to Australia! Do you?
P
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11/12/2005 08:36:05 PM · #535 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by RonB:
..to the best of my knowledge only ONE had the ability to speak. |
What does ablity to speak have anything to do with it? You said ophis meant satan, not snake. Bible.org says it means snake. |
With apologies to bear_music inadvance, but I did NOT say that ophis meant satan. What I specifically said is "It is used figuratively to mean Satan.". I think that my statement is clear in NOT implying a LITERAL application.
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by RonB:
Do you not share information with others? |
Sure, but you're implying that an all-knowing being wouldn't also share such info. |
Apologies to bear_music yet again, but I implied no such thing. I didn't imply that it had to be ADAM who shared the information. Only that SOMEONE did.
Originally posted by RonB:
What makes you think
a) that some species became extinct BEFORE the flood?
b) that EVERY animal on the ark was mentioned in scripture?
c) animals were unable to reproduce while ON the ark? It was just shy of a year from the time that they entered the ark until they left. |
Just trying to help you out a bit because otherwise:
a) There would be dinosaurs and mammoths on the Ark.
b) Every animal didn't have to be mentioned, but I'd expect a tyrannosaurus rex to attract some attention.
c) Animals could certainly reproduce, but the ark had enough of a space issue without adding to the population (the annual food requirements alone would very likely outweigh the animals). [/quote]
a) As stated elsewhere, there were no carnivores on the ark. That included any dinosaurs that were aboard the ark
b) Any T-Rex's on the ark would have had to develop carnivore characteristics AFTER the flood. Or would have had them, but not used them for eating meat.
c) See my response vis-a-vis the size of the ark. |
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11/12/2005 08:36:15 PM · #536 |
Originally posted by milo655321:
The Tyrannosarus rex ate some combination of grasses, vegetables, roots and fruits |
The T-rex was particularly fond of corn on the cob (picture that), though I'm told that lions loathe brussels sprouts. LOL
P.S.- carnivores cannot digest vegetable matter.
Note also that Noah would need a substantial aquarium in that Ark because several thousand feet of rain would seriously affect the salinity of the oceans and kill off most sea life (unless of course it rained salt water, which would kill off the freshwater fish- take your pick). |
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11/12/2005 08:39:33 PM · #537 |
It's 1.30am so as much as I am enjoying this, I must get some sleep! Just letting you know I am not giving up! You have time to consider my next point which is how long after these events was the Bible written for the first time? Obviously the stories were passed on orally until then. How can one know they are true to the original truth? Ever played chinese whispers?
I look forward to you replies
Goodnight everyone!
P
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11/12/2005 08:39:37 PM · #538 |
Originally posted by Riponlady:
Originally posted by pidge:
Man, I wonder what Adam and his kids ate that let him so live so gosh darn long! Just think what we would see if we could live almost a thousand years....
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Obviously hay if RonB is to be believed! |
"E.g." is the abbreviation for the Latin term "exempli gratia" and means "for example". It's ONLY AN EXAMPLE, not an inclusive list of all vegatation. |
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11/12/2005 08:45:50 PM · #539 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Note also that Noah would need a substantial aquarium in that Ark because several thousand feet of rain would seriously affect the salinity of the oceans and kill off most sea life (unless of course it rained salt water, which would kill off the freshwater fish- take your pick). |
No, scalvert, you misunderstand. Some freshwater fish living in rivers near ocean outlets can also survive for periods of time in saltwater environments. Conversely, some saltwater fish, like salmon, can live for extended periods of time in freshwater environments. Therefore, all fish can live in either freshwater or saltwater environments for extended periods of time. |
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11/12/2005 08:47:30 PM · #540 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by RonB:
There were females as well. |
Yes, I know. I was just making a remark back to the OP given your all-male reply, BUT: in the Book of Jubilees, Adam and Eve have two daughters (Awân and Azûrâ) and about a dozen sons. According to Genesis and other later sources, Cain had a twin sister and Abel had two twin sisters or Cain had a twin sister named Lebuda and Abel a twin sister named Qelimath. In at least one source Cain's, twin sister is named Luluwa, and Abel's twin sister is named Aklia. In other words, even the bible's authors aren't quite sure. |
a) Your example is a good reason that the book of Jubilees was rejected by the committee that selected the books to be included in the King James Version of the Bible ( and most translations since ).
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by RonB:
Cain was marked because several hundred years later... one of his cousins would not know who he was, apart from the mark, and might erroneously kill him. |
So after hundreds of years, someone might know enough to WANT to kill him (a major thou shalt not) yet not know who he was? Interesting. |
WANTING to kill is not a major "thou shalt not", though it may be a sin. |
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11/12/2005 08:50:26 PM · #541 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Riponlady:
Originally posted by pidge:
Man, I wonder what Adam and his kids ate that let him so live so gosh darn long! Just think what we would see if we could live almost a thousand years....
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Obviously hay if RonB is to be believed! |
"E.g." is the abbreviation for the Latin term "exempli gratia" and means "for example". It's ONLY AN EXAMPLE, not an inclusive list of all vegatation. |
Since you are giving me a grammar lesson and as I have an English degree, may I reciprocate and give you a spelling one - it's vegEtation! :)
Sorry that was bitchy!!
Any vegetation takes up a lot of room! It will also go off and lose its nutrition value. This is why sailors got scurvy. A TRex with scurvy is not a pleasant sight!
P
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11/12/2005 08:56:15 PM · #542 |
Let's review, shall we?
To correct Bear-music's use of the word snake, you said:
Originally posted by RonB:
The greek word translated serpent is ophis, not nachash. It is used figuratively to mean Satan. |
Ok, so it means Satan, not a snake. but now...
Originally posted by RonB:
I did NOT say that ophis meant satan. |
Originally posted by RonB:
I didn't imply that it had to be ADAM who shared the information. Only that SOMEONE did. |
Allrighty then... so the contention is: He put something in the garden and told them (apparently separately) not to eat it. Then he allowed a talking animal (Bible.org establishes that serpent = snake) into the garden with inside knowledge of this tree, all the while knowing the outcome in advance. Makes sense.
Originally posted by RonB:
...there were no carnivores on the ark. That included any dinosaurs that were aboard the ark. Any T-Rex's on the ark would have had to develop carnivore characteristics AFTER the flood. Or would have had them, but not used them for eating meat. |
The diet of carnivores is well known from their physical anatomy, fossilized stomach contents and coprolites (and it doesn't include turnips). You are suggesting that lions and velicoraptors used to be vegetarians, then decided after the flood that a steak would be nice. I suppose the existing defensive structures of other animals (armor, spikes, camouflage, venom, scent, etc.) were to protect them from rotten tomatoes. LOL!
Message edited by author 2005-11-12 21:00:04. |
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11/12/2005 08:57:02 PM · #543 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by milo655321:
The Tyrannosarus rex ate some combination of grasses, vegetables, roots and fruits |
The T-rex was particularly fond of corn on the cob (picture that), though I'm told that lions loathe brussels sprouts. LOL
P.S.- carnivores cannot digest vegetable matter. |
P.P.S. to repeat - there were no carnivores on the ark.
Originally posted by scalvert:
Note also that Noah would need a substantial aquarium in that Ark because several thousand feet of rain would seriously affect the salinity of the oceans and kill off most sea life (unless of course it rained salt water, which would kill off the freshwater fish- take your pick). |
Until the rains came, a great deal of the water was contained in the atmosphere, not in the oceans ( p.s. one of the reasons people before the flood lived so much longer than those afterward ). The rains washed saline laden sediments into the ocean basins. Sediments are heavier than water, meaning that for a time, the salinity of the oceans was greater toward the bottom and lesser toward the surface ( where it was also raining fresh water ). Fresh-water fishes swam near the surface, salt-water fishes lower down; each in accordance with its needs. After the flood, the fresh water fish sought out fresh water streams, ponds, lakes, etc. as the waters receded. |
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11/12/2005 09:00:52 PM · #544 |
Originally posted by Riponlady:
Any vegetation takes up a lot of room! It will also go off and lose its nutrition value. This is why sailors got scurvy. A TRex with scurvy is not a pleasant sight!
P |
Saliors got scurvy because the vitamin C pseudogene (nonfunctioning genes) that humans carry cannot, in fact, synthesize vitamin C. Chimpanzees, gorillas and orangutans carry the same vitamin C pseudogene as humans which is "broken" in the same spot. Excluding guinea pigs, all other mammals synthesize vitamin C. The guinea pig pseudogene is "broken" in a different spot than the great ape family. |
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11/12/2005 09:07:42 PM · #545 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Until the rains came, a great deal of the water was contained in the atmosphere, not in the oceans. |
The atmosphere cannot support that much water vapor (and even if it did, the increased pressure would crush poor humans).
Originally posted by RonB:
Fresh-water fishes swam near the surface, salt-water fishes lower down; each in accordance with its needs. |
So saltwater animals requiring oxygen to breathe (dolphins, turtles, etc.) just swam under an extra 20,000 feet of water and held their breath for a year? Meanwhile, freshwater mussels floated? o-TAY!
Message edited by author 2005-11-12 21:09:22. |
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11/12/2005 09:12:48 PM · #546 |
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by Riponlady:
Any vegetation takes up a lot of room! It will also go off and lose its nutrition value. This is why sailors got scurvy. A TRex with scurvy is not a pleasant sight!
P |
Saliors got scurvy because the vitamin C pseudogene (nonfunctioning genes) that humans carry cannot, in fact, synthesize vitamin C. Chimpanzees, gorillas and orangutans carry the same vitamin C pseudogene as humans which is "broken" in the same spot. Excluding guinea pigs, all other mammals synthesize vitamin C. The guinea pig pseudogene is "broken" in a different spot than the great ape family. |
So only Noah and his family, chimpanzees, gotillas, orangutans and guinea pig got scurvy? I'm presuming my old friend the TRex made his own vit.C ? Any way you know this?
Actually doesn't the fact that these scurvy ridden creatures all have the same "broken" gene tell you something about their evolutionary development or did God just use the same blueprint for man and them?
P
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11/12/2005 09:18:45 PM · #547 |
Originally posted by Riponlady:
So only Noah and his family, chimpanzees, gotillas, orangutans and guinea pig got scurvy? I'm presuming my old friend the TRex made his own vit.C ? Any way you know this?
Actually doesn't the fact that these scurvy ridden creatures all have the same "broken" gene tell you something about their evolutionary development or did God just use the same blueprint for man and them?
P |
Psst ... I'm not really a creationist, but I sometimes play one on TV. |
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11/12/2005 09:57:41 PM · #548 |
Originally posted by Riponlady:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Riponlady:
OK RonB Thanks for the opinion.
Another question.
We know the size of the ark from the scriptures. How did 2 of every species get on there? And had the room to reproduce? And the population started again then? Incest and world travel repeated? How long did Noah and sons/wives live?
P |
1) The animals came to Noah - he did not have to go out and "collect" them. Genesis 7:8-9 says "Pairs of clean and unclean animals, of birds and of all creatures that move along the ground, male and female, [/b]came to Noah and entered the ark[/b], as God had commanded Noah.
2) The ark was three stories high and was the equivalent in size to over 550 modern railroad stock cars. It has been estimated that 40,000 animals could be comfortably accomodated in only 170 modern railroad stock cars - less than 1/3 of the capacity of the ark. That left plenty of room for food and water for the all, and for Noah and his family.
3) It wasn't only Noad and his SONS. It was Noah and his wife, and their three sons and their wives. Marriage was still permitted between cousins ( not incest ).
4) Noah was 600 when he entered the ark, 601 when he exited. He lived a total of 930 years. Shem lived 600 years Scripture doesn't record how long Ham and Japheth lived. |
And Noah and his 3 sons built this by themselves? |
Yes, but they had up to 100 years to build it ( scripture does not say exactly how long ). If you can imagine, say, 200 men building it in two years, then why not 4 men building it in 100 years.
Originally posted by Riponlady:
And I don't think there was sufficient room for the food and water for 40,000 animals. My mare ate 5 bales of hay a week + being out at grass for most of the day.That's 260 + bales per year. Elephants eat more! OK smaller animals eat less but those TRex's must have got through quite a bit! |
The ark was over 1.5 million cubic feet. We have already stated that the animals would take up 1/3rd of the space. Leaving 1 million cubic feet for food and water. And not ALL of the fodder brought on board had the same density as hay. It should be evident that chopped, compressed fodder doesn't take up as much volume as it did before processing.
Originally posted by Riponlady:
Water tkes up a huge amount of room. Now I assumed they got water from the rain but you say they took it with them so again add on gallons and gallons per day...... |
They did not take it ALL with them, as you say, but enough to make up the deficit.
Originally posted by Riponlady:
I know Noah had son + their wives. Obviously they were permanenetly pregnant for 600 years!
I still don't know how they got to Australia! Do you?
P |
No. |
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11/12/2005 10:00:33 PM · #549 |
Originally posted by Riponlady:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Riponlady:
Originally posted by pidge:
Man, I wonder what Adam and his kids ate that let him so live so gosh darn long! Just think what we would see if we could live almost a thousand years....
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Obviously hay if RonB is to be believed! |
"E.g." is the abbreviation for the Latin term "exempli gratia" and means "for example". It's ONLY AN EXAMPLE, not an inclusive list of all vegatation. |
Since you are giving me a grammar lesson and as I have an English degree, may I reciprocate and give you a spelling one - it's vegEtation! :)
Sorry that was bitchy!! |
No it wasn't. I appreciate the comment. I actually KNEW that, but my fingers didn't. I use my backspace key about as often as any other. |
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11/12/2005 10:04:37 PM · #550 |
| If there were no carnivores around before the Flood, what ate up all the dead herbivores? Doesn't any of the pre-Flood stories mention a lion or wolf? For that matter, snakes are carnivores (or oovores, which should be the same to you), and we know there was at least one of those around before the Flood.. |
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