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11/13/2005 06:17:47 PM · #601 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
For that matter, snakes are carnivores (or oovores, which should be the same to you), and we know there was at least one of those around before the Flood.. |
Scripture isn't clear at all about oovores. Eggs are not mentioned in scripture until Job says that he thinks that the white of an egg has no flavor. I do know that SOME vegetarians eat eggs, but am assured that vegans do not. So, whether snakes ate eggs before the flood will remain a mystery to us both. |
Well, then you acknowledge there was at least one carivore present in the Garden -- the snake. Snakes do not eat asparagus, no matter how well-designed for their consumption it may be. |
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11/13/2005 06:20:05 PM · #602 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
SURELY you must be in favor of a minimum wage in which someone who works a full-time job elevates one above the poverty line? |
The "poverty line" is a myth perpetrated by the government. The minimum wage in the U.S. ALREADY pays enough to keep people from living in "real" poverty. I know - I've been there. It just requires giving up a lot of the modern [unnecessary] conveniences, like big-screen High-Definition Cable TV's, cell phones, SUV's, $150 shoes, etc.
So NO, I am NOT in favor of a minimum wage in which someone who works a full-time job that isn't WORTH the money is raised to elevate them above an artificial "poverty line" that would exceed the AVERAGE income in most countries of the world.
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11/13/2005 06:24:24 PM · #603 |
| So you do support the perpetuation of a an impoverished underclass so that the rich can continue to wallow in their wanton excesses (there's that $6000 shower curtain again). Your viewpoint gives lie to the myths of "compassionate conservatism" and "equal opportunity" and unmasks the Radical Right for the greedy feudalistic bloodsuckers they are -- thanks for clearing that up for me. |
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11/13/2005 06:27:25 PM · #604 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
For that matter, snakes are carnivores (or oovores, which should be the same to you), and we know there was at least one of those around before the Flood.. |
Scripture isn't clear at all about oovores. Eggs are not mentioned in scripture until Job says that he thinks that the white of an egg has no flavor. I do know that SOME vegetarians eat eggs, but am assured that vegans do not. So, whether snakes ate eggs before the flood will remain a mystery to us both. |
Well, then you acknowledge there was at least one carivore present in the Garden -- the snake. Snakes do not eat asparagus, no matter how well-designed for their consumption it may be. |
No, I don't. Not all snakes are carnivorous. Some eat ONLY eggs. And, as I said earlier, scripture doesn't say what the serpent ate, nor the insects. |
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11/13/2005 06:35:24 PM · #605 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
So you do support the perpetuation of a an impoverished underclass so that the rich can continue to wallow in their wanton excesses (there's that $6000 shower curtain again). Your viewpoint gives lie to the myths of "compassionate conservatism" and "equal opportunity" and unmasks the Radical Right for the greedy feudalistic bloodsuckers they are -- thanks for clearing that up for me. |
I do hope that you feel better after venting your spleen. And my, what a large spleen that was! Thanks for telling everyone how you REALLY feel.
My answer, by the way, is a combination of yes's and no's. |
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11/13/2005 06:39:23 PM · #606 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Riponlady:
Good Morning! I am back and raring to go!
Since you have moved on from Noah to a certain degree, to anthropology, I will forgo asking the question that struck me at 4am this morning about koalas and kangaroos.
BUT I will return to my question as to when the Old Testament was first written down. Who first wrote it down, when did this happen and where is there a record of this ( can there be a record?). Anyway since the "stories"/"history" must have been oral tradition up to then, who knows if they are true or have been somewhat dramatised as any storyteller will do to keep audience interest. Also if any of you have played Chinese Whispers you know what happens to words after five minutes let alone 1000 years.
By the way RonB,thank you for taking my bitchy remark so graciously - blame it on late night and wine!
I am also glad to see you actually admit ( How did they get to Australia?) that you do not know something about Noah! I respect this more than you trying to explain the unexplainable ( note I didn't say untrue). Is all the information you said about the water/food/dinosaurs in the Bible in plain language? Or is it implied? Or is it the church scholars trying to answer questions like in this thread?
P |
To be honest, the bible doesn't mention dinosaurs by name. And, for what it's worth, the bible doesn't expressly say anything about taking water onto the ark. By what it DOES say, however, one must infer that IF there were land dwelling dinosaurs at the time of the great flood, then they would have been aboard the ark. Likewise, one must infer that if it only rained steadily for forty days & 40 nights, that some water must have been brought aboard. Scripture does NOT say that it never rained at all during the next 10+ months ( nor that it did ), so there is no way of estimating just how much water would have been needed in storage, or how much could have been collected in cisterns while en route. It is my OPINION that it DID rain during the voyage, because when Noah and his family exited the ark they were greated with a RAINbow.
P.S. Since this was something NEW to Noah, it would appear that there had never been any before - because prior to the flood, the atmosphere contained so much water vapor that rainbows wouldn't be visible.
Most of the Genesis story is in plain language. That is why I attempt to insert the quotations - so as not to be accused of "misinterpretation". |
Thank you RonB for answering my questions about dinosaurs and water but could you reply about the formal writing down of the Bible? I am not trying to be difficult here - I really am interested.
You won't convince me that the Bible is literal fact but I am interested in other points of view.
BTW You will be horrified to know I have to teach religious studies at school!
:)
P
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11/13/2005 06:58:39 PM · #607 |
Originally posted by milo655321:
Ladies and gentlemen of the international community,
I present for your entertainment and edification -- the results of homeschooling in the United States of America. Read and be afraid. Be very, VERY afraid.
Originally posted by jsas:
That is soo fricken funny you just supported the cause of creation. Where is the evidence for evolution, any trans figured missing links any proof. and the sun quite frankly if it was any closer it would do to you what Truman did to Japan. Big Bang lol look all around you and you say it all happened by chance. So the next time you have a great photo it just happened and I see it. Hitler said give me a child until he is 5 and I will own him for the rest of his life. The communist believe the same. School is teaching monkey history as a fact. The same minds that believe Superman is real believe Darwin. Too funny. |
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I was taught in the public schools, in public college and in public graduate schools. I still find those that believe strictly in an big bang theory, evolution theory or any likes there of to have a faith common to my own. Matter of fact it takes more faith in the teachings of men to believe these theories than it does to have faith in the God given Word. I do believe in a big bang or evolution theory if there is a big God. Heck, if God laid a cosmic egg with a cosmic chicken and said, "Bang" and in 6 days their was creation so be it. Yet, to believe that at one cosmic moment all chaos in the universe united at one point in time in perfect succession to create the universe is absolutely unfathomable with out a Big God. A little more entertainment for ya Milo! |
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11/13/2005 07:12:40 PM · #608 |
Yay! Ron came back to entertain us, and it looks like he brought friends. Welcome!
1) I even gave you the link for the ark's floor space with the most impartial source I could find (an encyclopedia). You aren't disputing the size of a cubit or the ark's dimensions, so you're just disputing the ability of mathematicians and engineers to solve a math problem. Whatever.
2)The bible isn't clear on whether "7 of every kind , a male and it's mate" means seven pairs or seven individuals, but pairs would make the most sense unless he's just leaving it up to Noah to pick the sex of the extra.
3) I love this one. Keep telling me because I never tire of hearing it. Until the Flood dinosaurs, lions, dragons and snakes (excuse me- serpents) were vegetarians. After the flood, they lost their grinding teeth and the ability to digest vegetation, developed fangs and claws while their counterparts grew shells, spines, camouflage and scent glands to protect them from previously absent predators. Holy smokes! They evolved!
4) Yes, marine plants can survive in water (duh), but they still require light, and that's pretty scarce under 20,000 feet of water. BTW, despite the similar sounding names, plankton aren't plants.
5) Yes you did. That was quite a story!
6) Atmospheric pressure. It's the weight of all the "stuff" (air, water vapor, etc.) pressing down on you. If I remember correctly, it's about 14 lbs per square inch at sea level. Now if you could suspend enough water vapor in the atmosphere to facilitate the proposed flood, all that extra water would create an enormous amount of pressure- like deep sea diving without the bathyscaphe. You would be unable to stand up, nitrogen and oxygen would be pressed into your body at toxic levels, and you just generally wouldn't want to get out of bed. Such clouds would also block out all sunlight.
8) No insects? So either they were treading water for a year with nothing to eat or they popped into existence after the Flood (before which fruiting plants were pollinated by the lions and dinosaurs that stalked this defenseless vegetation).
Continuing...
b) Correct- I read, but do not comprehend your answers. I doubt that I'm alone.
c) I'm all about research (in stark contrast to your assertions on eyes, carnivores, serpents, salinity, calculations of square footage...) |
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11/13/2005 07:12:46 PM · #609 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Rather than waste time dicussing the atmosphere (I'll be happy to if you like), let me just point out that your atmospheric hypothesis has been rejected by the Institute for Creation Research and Answers, which was founded by the author of the vapor canopy model.
[quote=RonB]Why I believe that they breathed THEN the same way that they breathe NOW - they come to the surface. |
That surface was 17,000-29,000 feet of water away. No marine mammal or reptile could reach that depth or survive the incredible water pressure (ever hear of the bends?). For reference, the crush depth for a nuclear submarine is around 2,000 feet. |
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11/13/2005 07:14:41 PM · #610 |
Originally posted by milo655321:
Ladies and gentlemen of the international community,
I present for your entertainment and edification -- the results of homeschooling in the United States of America. Read and be afraid. Be very, VERY afraid.
Originally posted by jsas:
That is soo fricken funny you just supported the cause of creation. Where is the evidence for evolution, any trans figured missing links any proof. and the sun quite frankly if it was any closer it would do to you what Truman did to Japan. Big Bang lol look all around you and you say it all happened by chance. So the next time you have a great photo it just happened and I see it. Hitler said give me a child until he is 5 and I will own him for the rest of his life. The communist believe the same. School is teaching monkey history as a fact. The same minds that believe Superman is real believe Darwin. Too funny. |
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I was not homeschooled, milo, what is there to be afraid of really I'm just a lowly poor country boy, who ne'er got schooled like you (well I guess I just did, didn't I.). Just my opinion, don't like it then scroll right by what I said, but don't belittle me. Any questions call me at 1-800-BLAH. I love a good fight.
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11/13/2005 07:20:11 PM · #611 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
I was taught in the public schools, in public college and in public graduate schools. I still find those that believe strictly in an big bang theory, evolution theory or any likes there of to have a faith common to my own. Matter of fact it takes more faith in the teachings of men to believe these theories than it does to have faith in the God given Word. I do believe in a big bang or evolution theory if there is a big God. Heck, if God laid a cosmic egg with a cosmic chicken and said, "Bang" and in 6 days their was creation so be it. Yet, to believe that at one cosmic moment all chaos in the universe united at one point in time in perfect succession to create the universe is absolutely unfathomable with out a Big God. A little more entertainment for ya Milo! |
I have no problem with your belief in a god. I don̢۪t have a problem if you feel the need to believe that a god created the universe and everything in it as long as you don̢۪t try to make that belief part of a public school science education. I do, however, have a problem with people who criticize things whom, after even the most cursory of exchanges, exhibit that they have no clue as to what they̢۪re criticizing. Is it too much to ask a person to at least pick up and read a popular science book in order to find out in layman̢۪s terms what they̢۪re criticizing? I don̢۪t think so. I̢۪m not asking for a dissertation on the subject, but I am asking for at least a basic understanding.
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11/13/2005 07:22:00 PM · #612 |
Originally posted by jsas:
I was not homeschooled, milo, what is there to be afraid of really I'm just a lowly poor country boy, who ne'er got schooled like you (well I guess I just did, didn't I.). Just my opinion, don't like it then scroll right by what I said, but don't belittle me. Any questions call me at 1-800-BLAH. I love a good fight. |
Ditto my comments to res0m50r. |
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11/13/2005 07:24:31 PM · #613 |
Originally posted by jsas:
Where is the evidence for evolution, |
Fossils and contemporary observation
Originally posted by jsas:
any transfigured missing links any proof. |
Sure, tons of it.
Originally posted by jsas:
the sun quite frankly if it was any closer it would do to you what Truman did to Japan. |
Fortunately, it's not. Mercury wasn't so lucky.
Originally posted by jsas:
Big Bang lol look all around you and you say it all happened by chance. |
Natural progression certainly seems more plausible than magic. I can't even make sense of the rest of your statement. |
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11/13/2005 07:25:33 PM · #614 |
Originally posted by jsas:
Hitler said give me a child until he is 5 and I will own him for the rest of his life. The communist believe the same. |
Actually the Jesuits said "Give me the child until he is 7 and I will give you the man" and they were neither fascists nor communist. As an educator I have a lot of sympathy for this in many cases!
P
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11/13/2005 07:32:20 PM · #615 |
Originally posted by Riponlady:
Thank you RonB for answering my questions about dinosaurs and water but could you reply about the formal writing down of the Bible? I am not trying to be difficult here - I really am interested.
You won't convince me that the Bible is literal fact but I am interested in other points of view.
BTW You will be horrified to know I have to teach religious studies at school!
:)
P |
First off, no I'm not horrified - I'm sure that you'll do a great job. I know that you will do the necessary research and enter with a desire to teach that which is correct to the best of your ability ( BTW, I think that teaching is the second most important job in the world ( parenting is first )).
The "formal" writing of scripture as we have it today took place over thousands of years. There are over 40 authors of the books that are contained in the Old & New Testaments. Moses is generally though to be the author of the first 5, including Genesis. Obviously he was not alive at the time of Noah, so you are correct in assuming that the stories were handed down from generation to generation by word of mouth. That is NOT to undermine the authenticity of the scripture. Pure memorization of the story, the names, ages, etc. was a very, very serious matter. It was not unlike some of the more "modern" peoples who did not have a written language. Many native American tribes relied on this method in their culture. By the time of Moses, of course, there were written languages, and have been ever since.
Most modern translations are based on one or another of the same sets of ancient documents. For the Old Testament, there are really three. The Septuagint, which was an early translation of the Torah and some other books into Greek ( in the 3rd century BC ); the Masoretic texts, which are expanded Hebrew texts ( the expansion was done because the original hebrew texts only contained consonants, not vowels - so you "could" call this an early "translation" since it required "interpretation" whenever there were two words with the same consonants but different vowels that "could" have fit ), and some miscellaneous Aramaic texts. Most of the newer translations are made using the Masoretic texts ( with assistance from the Septuagint ) and Aramaic texts.
The New Testament was almost entirely written in Greek, though some Aramaic copies of some of the books have also been preserved.
For more information, I suggest that you read the writeup at this site for a greater explanation. Among other things, you will find that it says:
"There are more than 14,000 existing Old Testament manuscripts and fragments copied throughout the Middle East, Mediterranean and European regions that agree dramatically with each other. In addition, these texts agree with the Septuagint version of the Old Testament, which was translated from Hebrew to Greek some time during the 3rd century BC. The Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered in Israel in the 1940's and 50's, also provide phenomenal evidence for the reliability of the ancient transmission of the Jewish Scriptures (Old Testament) before the arrival of Jesus Christ. The Hebrew scribes who copied the Jewish Scriptures dedicated their lives to preserving the accuracy of the holy books. These scribes went to phenomenal lengths to insure manuscript reliability. They were highly trained and meticulously observed, counting every letter, word and paragraph against master scrolls. A single error would require the immediate destruction of the entire text. "
Good luck with your teaching. I hope that you are blessed with attentive students. |
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11/13/2005 07:32:43 PM · #616 |
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by jsas:
I was not homeschooled, milo, what is there to be afraid of really I'm just a lowly poor country boy, who ne'er got schooled like you (well I guess I just did, didn't I.). Just my opinion, don't like it then scroll right by what I said, but don't belittle me. Any questions call me at 1-800-BLAH. I love a good fight. |
Ditto my comments to res0m50r. |
Seriously, I don't want to fight about things that are fact or fiction. I look at science and believe it because I see it with my own eye. You seem very intelligent and I won't doubt that. I guess I am just ignorant to the fact that Coco, is really my great uncle. |
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11/13/2005 07:41:11 PM · #617 |
For those who are willing to read and comprehend, I offer this:
"Water vapor effect: Humid air is lighter (less dense) exerting less pressure than dry air at the same temperature. This is because molecular weight of water is less than average molecular weight of dry air.
Cold, dry air produce higher surface pressure than do warm, humid air. Warm, dry air produces higher surface pressure than equally warm, but more humid air."
From this link ( The University of Maryland @ Baltimore Center )
Message edited by author 2005-11-13 19:42:20. |
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11/13/2005 07:42:15 PM · #618 |
Originally posted by RonB:
...you are correct in assuming that the stories were handed down from generation to generation by word of mouth. Pure memorization of the story, the names, ages, etc. was a very, very serious matter. Many native American tribes relied on this method in their culture. |
So what, then, makes one set of stories any more reliable than another? The Mayans, Aztecs, Navajo, Aborigines, Chinese, Africans, Inuit, Greeks, etc. were all using the same methods (and lack of proof) to maintain their stories, but only one is held to be absolute fact while the rest are bogus? |
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11/13/2005 07:47:08 PM · #619 |
For those that are willing to read and comprehend, I offer this:
The SURFACE of the ocean is UP. DEPTH in the ocean is DOWN. There is AIR at the SURFACE. That's where air breathing ocean animals go to BREATHE.
The PRESSURE at the SURFACE of the ocean ( SEA LEVEL ) is only the pressure of the ATMOSPHERE. It is MUCH less than the pressure at greater DEPTHs. |
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11/13/2005 07:50:53 PM · #620 |
Originally posted by Riponlady:
Originally posted by jsas:
Hitler said give me a child until he is 5 and I will own him for the rest of his life. The communist believe the same. |
Actually the Jesuits said "Give me the child until he is 7 and I will give you the man" and they were neither fascists nor communist. As an educator I have a lot of sympathy for this in many cases!
P |
So, Hitler knew history and almost changed the world as we know it. Educators have the ability to shape a young mind, that is why you do it to make a difference. What you put in that little head is evident as a man, whether it be hate or love, creation or evolution. I wonder how many people have really read "The Descent of Man" I have. All this over a theory LOL.
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11/13/2005 07:52:24 PM · #621 |
But I thought this was a thread about gay cowboys?
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11/13/2005 07:53:02 PM · #622 |
| Only one has proven itself time after time, no other can say this. The Bible tells future events and ALL have come true and ARE STILL comeing true. Read it and see for your self |
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11/13/2005 08:04:27 PM · #623 |
Originally posted by jsas:
Seriously, I don't want to fight about things that are fact or fiction. I look at science and believe it because I see it with my own eye. You seem very intelligent and I won't doubt that. I guess I am just ignorant to the fact that Coco, is really my great uncle. |
Evolution occurs across populations and over many generations. It is not observable in humans in a lifetime. The largest animals we have direct observations of evolution occurring are in chaffinches (Darwin's own, long terms studies by one of the Canadian Universities) and mosquitos (several places, most memorably for me in the London Underground).
It is indirectly observable where we can see two species that appear to be diverging, such as certain types of fishes in certain estuaries where salt and fresh water varieties only mate with limited sucess. Also where there are "ring" species - varieties that can mate with their neighbouring, but slightly different variety around a point, where the two "end" species have evolved away from each other so far that no mating is possible between them even though they are geographic neighbours. Examples can be found in the himalayas with green warbler varieties and in North America deer mice varieties.
So if you know where to look, with some patience, you can see some evidence with your own eyes. Or if, like me, you don't have the time and money, you can read about it in Science journals and the popular press, and rely on other people who also have the time, money and inclination (other scientists) to hold the authors to account.
If you want to go back to the easy solution, you can believe in the alternative biblical creation story (or the creation story of any other religion or people, of which there are many), but you are stuck with relying on your faith, rather than by detailed observation of the world around you.
Message edited by author 2005-11-13 20:05:27.
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11/13/2005 08:07:52 PM · #624 |
Originally posted by BigR:
Only one has proven itself time after time, no other can say this. The Bible tells future events and ALL have come true and ARE STILL comeing true. Read it and see for your self |
I am devastated to learn that I do not have free will after all...
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11/13/2005 08:08:20 PM · #625 |
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
Originally posted by jsas:
Seriously, I don't want to fight about things that are fact or fiction. I look at science and believe it because I see it with my own eye. You seem very intelligent and I won't doubt that. I guess I am just ignorant to the fact that Coco, is really my great uncle. |
Evolution occurs across populations and over many generations. It is not observable in humans in a lifetime. The largest animals we have direct observations of evolution occurring are in chaffinches (Darwin's own, long terms studies by one of the Canadian Universities) and mosquitos (several places, most memorably for me in the London Underground).
It is indirectly observable where we can see two species that appear to be diverging, such as certain types of fishes in certain estuaries where salt and fresh water varieties only mate with limited sucess. Also where there are "ring" species - varieties that can mate with their neighbouring, but slightly different variety around a point, where the two "end" species have evolved away from each other so far that no mating is possible between them even though they are geographic neighbours. Examples can be found in the himalayas with green warbler varieties and in North America deer mice varieties.
So if you know where to look, with some patience, you can see some evidence with your own eyes. Or if, like me, you don't have the time and money, you can read about it in Science journals and the popular press, and rely on other people who also have the time, money and inclination (other scientists) to hold the authors to account.
If you want to go back to the easy solution, you can believe in the alternative biblical creation story (or the creation story of any other religion or people, of which there are many), but you are stuck with relying on your faith, rather than by detailed observation of the world around you. |
I believe we evolve I look in the mirror and see that. I don't believe I come from a monkey like milo does.
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