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11/16/2005 12:45:33 PM · #901 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Originally posted by Riponlady:
You... keep saying the Bible is fact! ...how do you know? |
Here is just one reason... to list them all would take a lot of time...
Isaiah 43:1-14 |
A book is fact because the book itself says it's fact? So if Wendy says that Peter Pan is real, then that qualifies as proof? Wow. I think we have different standards of verifying facts (mine requires actual evidence) |
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11/16/2005 12:46:46 PM · #902 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Originally posted by Riponlady:
You (or in this thread- can't check all that way) keep saying the Bible is fact! That it is factually correct. I have asked before and ask again,how do you know?
P |
Here is just one reason... to list them all would take a lot of time... I do have some more information, but not here at work with me.
Isaiah 43:1-14
But now, thus says the LORD, who created you, O Jacob,
And He who formed you, O Israel:
Γ’ Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by your name;
You are Mine.........
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You can't prove something is factual by quoting it! I could quote Alice through the Looking Glass but it would not mean it is true!
What you are saying (i think ) is that beacause you believe in God therefore the Bible is fact and so you believe in God! Circular argument or what!
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11/16/2005 12:47:08 PM · #903 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
I am interested in your statistics on the percentages of Christians in the world, where did you get them? I have been looking for sources of this nature. Thanks ahead of time! |
Here is one reference giving around 32% of the world population as being Christian or just over 2 billion people. This reference places all Catholics or near Catholic sects at around 65% of the Christian population, all mainstream Protestant or near Protestant sects around 38% and non-mainstream Protestant sects at just over 1%. (I know, combined they donΓ’t equal 100%, so IΓ’m guessing thereΓ’s crossover in definition or something.)
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11/16/2005 12:47:35 PM · #904 |
Originally posted by jsas:
I think they really just have some dust build up or some snot to rid themselves of. |
Ooooh... so ridding oneself of snot requires the blessing of a supreme being. |
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11/16/2005 12:50:54 PM · #905 |
Scalvert
You type faster than me!!!!!
P
:)
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11/16/2005 12:50:58 PM · #906 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Originally posted by Riponlady:
You (or in this thread- can't check all that way) keep saying the Bible is fact! That it is factually correct. I have asked before and ask again,how do you know?
P |
Here is just one reason... to list them all would take a lot of time... I do have some more information, but not here at work with me.
Isaiah 43:1-14
But now, thus says the LORD, who created you, O Jacob,
And He who formed you, O Israel:
Γ’ ....
Let them bring out their witnesses, that they may be justified;
Or let them hear and say, Γ’It is truth.Γ’
10 Γ’ You are My witnesses,Γ’ says the LORD...." |
THIS is the beginning of your "proof"? That in the Book it says it, so it must be so?
In science, in mathematics, Goedel proved that we cannot find the proof of a system within the system, EVER. You'd be better off building on that, because quoting the Bible to prove the Bible is entirely circular and will not be accepted by anyone who does not believe.
Rather you should concentrate your efforts where the Lord has asked you to; in witnessing your faith, not in attempting to "prove" His greatness. He is larger than you, He is larger than all of us together. He does not need our proof. He only needs our Faith.
Seek not to answer naysayers with facts & figures that mean nothing. Answer them with faith and compassion, as your Lord would have you do.
Robt. |
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11/16/2005 12:51:48 PM · #907 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by jsas:
I think they really just have some dust build up or some snot to rid themselves of. |
Ooooh... so ridding oneself of snot requires the blessing of a supreme being. |
No, it reguires a hanky, or you can farmer blow. |
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11/16/2005 12:52:51 PM · #908 |
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11/16/2005 12:53:18 PM · #909 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Originally posted by Riponlady:
You (or in this thread- can't check all that way) keep saying the Bible is fact! That it is factually correct. I have asked before and ask again,how do you know?
P |
Here is just one reason... to list them all would take a lot of time... I do have some more information, but not here at work with me.
Isaiah 43:1-14
But now, thus says the LORD, who created you, O Jacob,
And He who formed you, O Israel:
Γ’ ....
Let them bring out their witnesses, that they may be justified;
Or let them hear and say, Γ’It is truth.Γ’
10 Γ’ You are My witnesses,Γ’ says the LORD...." |
THIS is the beginning of your "proof"? That in the Book it says it, so it must be so?
In science, in mathematics, Goedel proved that we cannot find the proof of a system within the system, EVER. You'd be better off building on that, because quoting the Bible to prove the Bible is entirely circular and will not be accepted by anyone who does not believe.
Rather you should concentrate your efforts where the Lord has asked you to; in witnessing your faith, not in attempting to "prove" His greatness. He is larger than you, He is larger than all of us together. He does not need our proof. He only needs our Faith.
Seek not to answer naysayers with facts & figures that mean nothing. Answer them with faith and compassion, as your Lord would have you do.
Robt. |
Another nail hit,smashed,blasted on the head. |
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11/16/2005 12:55:47 PM · #910 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Originally posted by Riponlady:
You (or in this thread- can't check all that way) keep saying the Bible is fact! That it is factually correct. I have asked before and ask again,how do you know?
P |
Here is just one reason... to list them all would take a lot of time... I do have some more information, but not here at work with me.
Isaiah 43:1-14
But now, thus says the LORD, who created you, O Jacob,
And He who formed you, O Israel:
Γ’ ....
Let them bring out their witnesses, that they may be justified;
Or let them hear and say, Γ’It is truth.Γ’
10 Γ’ You are My witnesses,Γ’ says the LORD...." |
THIS is the beginning of your "proof"? That in the Book it says it, so it must be so?
In science, in mathematics, Goedel proved that we cannot find the proof of a system within the system, EVER. You'd be better off building on that, because quoting the Bible to prove the Bible is entirely circular and will not be accepted by anyone who does not believe.
Rather you should concentrate your efforts where the Lord has asked you to; in witnessing your faith, not in attempting to "prove" His greatness. He is larger than you, He is larger than all of us together. He does not need our proof. He only needs our Faith.
Seek not to answer naysayers with facts & figures that mean nothing. Answer them with faith and compassion, as your Lord would have you do.
Robt. |
Well said.
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11/16/2005 12:56:16 PM · #911 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
So if Wendy says that Peter Pan is real, then that qualifies as proof? |
No, no, scalvert. Tinkerbell is alive because we believe in fairies and give evidence of belief by applauding. According to the sacred works of J.M. Berry, you have your confused your theology. Heretic! |
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11/16/2005 01:00:04 PM · #912 |
| How do you know tinkerbell rrrr (T)inkerbell was a fairy just because a book says it? LOL |
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11/16/2005 01:03:04 PM · #913 |
I bet that fairy believed in homosexual marriage!!!!
P
:))
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11/16/2005 01:03:58 PM · #914 |
Originally posted by Riponlady:
You.....keep saying the Bible is fact! That it is factually correct. I have asked before and ask again,how do you know?
P |
Not sure if your are asking this rehtoricly, as a non-believer or to shore up your own personal faith. A magazine titled: Biblical Archeological Review (I believe monthly) has for years published articles by leading scholars and archeologists pertaing to this very question. There are many many articles on the Dead Sea Scrolls. Josephus, a first century historian has presented evidence of "Christ" being an actual living being near the times recorded in scripture. And of course there are continued findings like the recent piece of wood with the name Goliath.
Your question may instead be one of challenging the messages of the Bible, like salvation. In that case, I would suggest you consult with one of 2 organizations whom I believe to be in possession of the greatest accumlations of historical data. The Orthodox Jews in Israel, or the Vatican. From their vast archives, I'm confident that enough evidence (or lack of) would be available to definatively answer you question.
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11/16/2005 01:06:52 PM · #915 |
Originally posted by Riponlady:
I bet that fairy believed in homosexual marriage!!!!
P
:)) |
Well, no I won't even go there....!)
Message edited by author 2005-11-16 13:07:30. |
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11/16/2005 01:10:04 PM · #916 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Riponlady:
You.....keep saying the Bible is fact! That it is factually correct. I have asked before and ask again,how do you know?
P |
Not sure if your are asking this rehtoricly, as a non-believer or to shore up your own personal faith. A magazine titled: Biblical Archeological Review (I believe monthly) has for years published articles by leading scholars and archeologists pertaing to this very question. There are many many articles on the Dead Sea Scrolls. Josephus, a first century historian has presented evidence of "Christ" being an actual living being near the times recorded in scripture. And of course there are continued findings like the recent piece of wood with the name Goliath.
Your question may instead be one of challenging the messages of the Bible, like salvation. In that case, I would suggest you consult with one of 2 organizations whom I believe to be in possession of the greatest accumlations of historical data. The Orthodox Jews in Israel, or the Vatican. From their vast archives, I'm confident that enough evidence (or lack of) would be available to definatively answer you question. |
I do not question that the people in the Bible may have lived, in fact I am pretty sure they did. BUT what I am disputing is that the things written by man that are supposed to have happened, did so. And that the stories were not just political and social spin.
Please tell me more about the wood with Goliath on. Sounds interesting!
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11/16/2005 01:20:15 PM · #917 |
Originally posted by ericlimon:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Think maybe I'll move to Texas...sounds like people with good sound values. Hooray for people with real courage! |
this type of thought is truely pathetic and sad. and for your other un-researched question about the history of marriage, there is a lot of proof that the first people in the world to make marriage laws were the ancient Egyptians.
You sound like someone who is lacking seriously in values.
Or maybe just a little bit insecure with your own sexuality. |
Why is it when hetero's question homo's our sexuality is always questioned as "insecure"??? Ha HA Ha.....
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11/16/2005 01:23:48 PM · #918 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
THIS is the beginning of your "proof"? That in the Book it says it, so it must be so?
In science, in mathematics, Goedel proved that we cannot find the proof of a system within the system, EVER. You'd be better off building on that, because quoting the Bible to prove the Bible is entirely circular and will not be accepted by anyone who does not believe. |
Fair enough, this example is circular until you believe what I believe. Yes, I still stand by the statement that the Bible is fact regardless of anyone's belief in it. Yet, I also understand that a non-believer will refute the Bible as evidence until they accept it for themselves. I will refrain from using the Bible as proof of itself unless supported with additional evidence.
Originally posted by bear_music:
Rather you should concentrate your efforts where the Lord has asked you to; in witnessing your faith, not in attempting to "prove" His greatness. He is larger than you, He is larger than all of us together. He does not need our proof. He only needs our Faith.
Seek not to answer naysayers with facts & figures that mean nothing. Answer them with faith and compassion, as your Lord would have you do.
Robt. |
As others have already stated this is well said and point taken.
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11/16/2005 01:26:08 PM · #919 |
Originally posted by HornOUBet:
Why is it when hetero's question homo's our sexuality is always questioned as "insecure"??? Ha HA Ha..... |
Because, in general, the people who make the most noise are the ones closest to the edge...
R. |
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11/16/2005 01:34:44 PM · #920 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Originally posted by bear_music:
THIS is the beginning of your "proof"? That in the Book it says it, so it must be so?
In science, in mathematics, Goedel proved that we cannot find the proof of a system within the system, EVER. You'd be better off building on that, because quoting the Bible to prove the Bible is entirely circular and will not be accepted by anyone who does not believe. |
Fair enough, this example is circular until you believe what I believe. Yes, I still stand by the statement that the Bible is fact regardless of anyone's belief in it. Yet, I also understand that a non-believer will refute the Bible as evidence until they accept it for themselves. I will refrain from using the Bible as proof of itself unless supported with additional evidence. |
Let me only interject that the reasoning is circular no matter what you believe. That you believe a thing to be true in no way enhances its value as a "proof" in the logical sense. But I appreciate your reasoned response
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Originally posted by bear_music:
Rather you should concentrate your efforts where the Lord has asked you to; in witnessing your faith, not in attempting to "prove" His greatness. He is larger than you, He is larger than all of us together. He does not need our proof. He only needs our Faith.
Seek not to answer naysayers with facts & figures that mean nothing. Answer them with faith and compassion, as your Lord would have you do.
Robt. |
As others have already stated this is well said and point taken. |
Thank you. And to tie this together with my earlier comment, proof is irrelevant anyway when it comes to belief in the Lord. Faith is everything, and this is what He asks of us. A neccessary component of "faith" is "lack of proof"; if a thing CAN be proven, faith does not enter the equation any longer.
This is SO important it cannot be overstressed; to a believer, "proof" is irrelevant because he "knows", and this is as it should be. Any who choose to mock people of faith because they cannot "prove" their beliefs do not understand what faith is, nor do they understand how important it is to a man's spirit to have faith.
Not only that, but there is no way to convince these naysayers otherwise except by bearing witness and by example. It is absolutely impossible to offer a sustainable proof on matters of faith.
Hence, my closing words int he earlier post.
Peace, Robt.
Message edited by author 2005-11-16 13:37:51. |
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11/16/2005 01:37:21 PM · #921 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
...and I would say that just because people believe in the sanctity of marriage doesn't mean that they are homophobes or hateful. It means they have a set of values that go back for generations on what it means to be married - husband and wife. Mom and Dad - family. |
I wonder how many "Mom and Dad" families have produced homosexual children throughout the millenia?
I also figure the more gay dudes there are around....the more babes for me. Ready to ROCK! ;)
BTW I'm glad someone pointed out that "abusing children" and "drunk driving" weren't lifestyle choices. |
I wonder how many "Mom and Dad" families have produced homosexual children throughout the millenia?
Ha HA HA... all the gay babies have been produced by Mom & Dad families......
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11/16/2005 01:42:54 PM · #922 |
Originally posted by Flash:
There are many many articles on the Dead Sea Scrolls. Josephus, a first century historian has presented evidence of "Christ" being an actual living being near the times recorded in scripture. |
There are FAR more artifacts from ancient Egyptian cultures (which pre-date any concept of Christianity by thousands of years). The Egyptians considered their Pharaohs to be divine (similar to other early cultures like the Inca). We know the Pharaohs existed in real life (heck, we even have some of the bodies), but their existence is not verification that the religious beliefs were factual, no matter how many written references you may find. Knowing that Davy Crockett really existed isn't evidence that he killed a bear at the age of three.
Originally posted by Flash:
...I would suggest you consult with ...The Orthodox Jews in Israel, or the Vatican. |
I spent 10 days in and around the Vatican earlier this year. It's an amazing place filled with amazing history and artifacts. Multiple paintings of St. George slaying a dragon aren't very satisfying as evidence of real events though. |
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11/16/2005 01:46:12 PM · #923 |
Technically, Ron was right! It is legal to marry a 9 year old in Georgia
//www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1116ChildGroom16-ON.html
Apparently Georgia republicans are having problems with removing the loophole that allows it, but they had no problem banning gay marriages.
From the article:
"We're protecting society from the perceived threat of homosexual marriage, which was already illegal," she said. "But yet if you're pregnant, you can get married - and it doesn't matter if you're 9 years old or 10 years old."
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11/16/2005 01:59:14 PM · #924 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Thank you. And to tie this together with my earlier comment, proof is irrelevant anyway when it comes to belief in the Lord. Faith is everything, and this is what He asks of us. A neccessary component of "faith" is "lack of proof"; if a thing CAN be proven, faith does not enter the equation any longer.
This is SO important it cannot be overstressed; to a believer, "proof" is irrelevant because he "knows", and this is as it should be. Any who choose to mock people of faith because they cannot "prove" their beliefs do not understand what faith is, nor do they understand how important it is to a man's spirit to have faith.
Not only that, but there is no way to convince these naysayers otherwise except by bearing witness and by example. It is absolutely impossible to offer a sustainable proof on matters of faith.
Hence, my closing words int he earlier post.
Peace, Robt. |
Thank you, Robert, for saying that so eloquently.
You can question the Bible, "faith" in general, whether Jesus was who He said He was, and even if God truly exists. While I care on the level that I would love for everyone to have the peace and joy I have found in Jesus, I also know that there is no argument I can present that will change a mind that either a) does not want to be changed or b)cannot be changed or c) does not see/feel a need to change. For this reason, I often abstain for the discussions of this type.
I guess you could say that I don't feel a need to "prove" my faith to anyone (though I am willing to share with everyone), because, like Bear pointed out, at the moment I 'prove' it, it becomes evidence not faith.
I, for one, am saddened to hear of the "abuse" done to others in the name of or for the cause of Christ, because after intense personal study in His life and character, I feel that He, too, would be grieved beyond belief.
That said, "Peace to you and yours" and may you find the truth you are seeking.
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11/16/2005 02:07:10 PM · #925 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by bear_music:
Thank you. And to tie this together with my earlier comment, proof is irrelevant anyway when it comes to belief in the Lord. Faith is everything, and this is what He asks of us. A neccessary component of "faith" is "lack of proof"; if a thing CAN be proven, faith does not enter the equation any longer.
This is SO important it cannot be overstressed; to a believer, "proof" is irrelevant because he "knows", and this is as it should be. Any who choose to mock people of faith because they cannot "prove" their beliefs do not understand what faith is, nor do they understand how important it is to a man's spirit to have faith.
Not only that, but there is no way to convince these naysayers otherwise except by bearing witness and by example. It is absolutely impossible to offer a sustainable proof on matters of faith.
Hence, my closing words int he earlier post.
Peace, Robt. |
Thank you, Robert, for saying that so eloquently.
You can question the Bible, "faith" in general, whether Jesus was who He said He was, and even if God truly exists. While I care on the level that I would love for everyone to have the peace and joy I have found in Jesus, I also know that there is no argument I can present that will change a mind that either a) does not want to be changed or b)cannot be changed or c) does not see/feel a need to change. For this reason, I often abstain for the discussions of this type.
I guess you could say that I don't feel a need to "prove" my faith to anyone (though I am willing to share with everyone), because, like Bear pointed out, at the moment I 'prove' it, it becomes evidence not faith.
I, for one, am saddened to hear of the "abuse" done to others in the name of or for the cause of Christ, because after intense personal study in His life and character, I feel that He, too, would be grieved beyond belief.
That said, "Peace to you and yours" and may you find the truth you are seeking. |
As for Bear, also for you, Karma, "well said".
I also am Christian. I believe in Christ as my Lord and Saviour. Faith for me is believing in things I don't understand. I don't feel the need to explain these things.
It struck me a ways back in this thread, when Shannon mentioned that his brother had been beaten for being gay - that to me is simply unacceptable, completely wrong, just totally bad and wrong.
Added: And I was a registered Democrat when I still lived in the USA, and in general people like to put me with the "liberal" group when it comes to politics. Yes, a liberal, Democrat, Christian :)
Message edited by author 2005-11-16 14:10:28.
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