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12/07/2005 01:15:08 AM · #26 |
Ever heard of the Pirelli calendar? Sexy women and the auto industry have a long history together. If there's a stereotype it's there for a reason.
This photo would fall closer to the side of fine art than commercial photography - but that doesn't make it pornography or gratuitous. |
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12/07/2005 01:19:25 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Dunno as an auto shop owner,that stuff has no way to be seen by my customers. Aside from DPC that in a business should never posted by a business. The Cavets are far to many... |
The point isn't the Political Correctness of hanging it in a car shop, but that images like this are part of the history of pin-up and Americana. |
But is it industrial,is it making something? grinding on a backing plate albeit Nice looking image, but begs further question, why the gloves, why not safety glasses, some kinda skin protection, or was it pushed nude art? |
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12/07/2005 01:27:58 AM · #28 |
This shot was done fully dressed... it lacked any punch. It was shot in various stages of undress... it looked cheap and forced. It was shot with an exposed pubic mound, which did look tacky in my opinion.
It was shot with gogles, which took away from the expression on the model's face.
The one flaw I wish I had taken into consideration is that I wish I had had the hand holding the grinder actually cover the breast.
Having a backing plate from a Toyota being grinded on is not a valid argument for the artistic merit of this shot. The challenge was for an Industrial Feel, not for an actual industrial locale.
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12/07/2005 01:30:58 AM · #29 |
| I thought technically it was a great photo. A wonderful idea! Ofcourse it is not going to appeal to everybody! I think it's far from pornographic. You could of maybe put her in a slightly open overall or something? Oh yeah, and safety goggles! Top job! Good effort! |
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12/07/2005 01:32:08 AM · #30 |
| Not argueing just giving my personal input, and it placed where it placed.. |
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12/07/2005 01:34:29 AM · #31 |
Interestingly enough I gave the shot a 7 - because I wasn't completely keen on the pose. I think the hand should have covered the breast completely too. It just took away from what would have been a perfect pinup (which come close but don't actually show any of the truly "naughty" parts).
I also didn't like the hot spot on her face or her expression much.
As far as whether she is really doing work in a factory or not... That seems a little silly to me. I just figured she was an artist or something - sculpting metal for who knows (and really, who cares) what reason - this wasn't a photo journalism shot. |
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12/07/2005 01:35:00 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Dunno as an auto shop owner,that stuff has no way to be seen by my customers. Aside from DPC that in a business should never posted by a business. The Cavets are far to many... |
The point isn't the Political Correctness of hanging it in a car shop, but that images like this are part of the history of pin-up and Americana. |
But is it industrial,is it making something? grinding on a backing plate albeit Nice looking image, but begs further question, why the gloves, why not safety glasses, some kinda skin protection, or was it pushed nude art? |
Well, ALL images of that historical genre fotomann is emulating (by his own words) existed for a single purpose: to do the selling for a tool or parts or tire company (or whatever) in an unregenerately "male" environment (of the time) by appealing to prurient interests with sexy images. It was a part of automotive marketing for a long time, although of course not completely nude when done commercially. THAT's what this image is recalling, sort of a slice of history. And I guess there's the whole rosie-the-riveter thing, from WWII; this image, from its low angle, very much recalls some of the rosie-riveter posters, but those were paintings of course.
I think it's a skillful piece of nostalgia, I think, and rather a takeoff on the genre just in that it's completely nude and slightly outrageous. But the thing of it is, those images, collectively, shout out that Sex Sells! And I presume a LOT of voters just followed that apth, if only subliminally, and refused BE stereotyped and voted it down. Seems simple to me.
It's all fine-and-well for fotoman to stake out the "art" territory for this (and I tend to be more in agreement than disagreement with that) but that's just HIS perception, and anyone who sees this as an attempt to "buy" their vote with nudity also has a valid perception as far as I'm concerned. The image was guaranteed to get votes all over the spectrum and it did :-)
R. |
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12/07/2005 01:36:11 AM · #33 |
Havn't you ever seen the Snap-on, Craftsman, etc. etc. calendars that come out every year? I worked in engineering in the Navy for 9 yrs. And for a 5 yrs at a cup manufacturing plant as an engineering technician. These types of calendars and 'pinups' are all over the place. Actually, IMO, the image in question is far more tastefully done and way less 'gratuituous' than any of these calendars. A fine image, I think.
As far as meeting the challenge, an industrial 'feel'? Like I said, I spent plenty of time in 'industry', and seeing a grinder going, sparks a flying and all, this had a strong industrial feel to me. Industrial plants are places of machinery. Lots of it. Think about it. There are all kinds of repair techs, shops, r&d, maintenance, etc. all through plants doing all kinds of mechanical work. So what as far as what she is grinding on. Not a lot of people have the luxury of access to a real plant with real parts that they can take a model and their camera in to do a shoot. Sheese. I'm sure that you are very knowledgeable on the subject since you clearly saw that these were old brake parts. I bet most people wouldn't know that. That is like me looking at a guitar shot and saying, since I am a guitarist, that it's all wrong because his fingers are not in the shape of a real chord and he's holding the pick wrong! A bit nit-picky, IMO.
Should we say that all the exterior shots of plants and factories and stuff are 'gratuitous' architecture shots?
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12/07/2005 01:36:26 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by megatherian:
Ever heard of the Pirelli calendar? Sexy women and the auto industry have a long history together. If there's a stereotype it's there for a reason.
This photo would fall closer to the side of fine art than commercial photography - but that doesn't make it pornography or gratuitous. |
Snap-on tool too!
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12/07/2005 01:43:29 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by taterbug:
Havn't you ever seen the Snap-on, Craftsman, etc. etc. calendars that come out every year? I worked in engineering in the Navy for 9 yrs. And for a 5 yrs at a cup manufacturing plant as an engineering technician. These types of calendars and 'pinups' are all over the place. Actually, IMO, the image in question is far more tastefully done and way less 'gratuituous' than any of these calendars. A fine image, I think.
As far as meeting the challenge, an industrial 'feel'? Like I said, I spent plenty of time in 'industry', and seeing a grinder going, sparks a flying and all, this had a strong industrial feel to me. Industrial plants are places of machinery. Lots of it. Think about it. There are all kinds of repair techs, shops, r&d, maintenance, etc. all through plants doing all kinds of mechanical work. So what as far as what she is grinding on. Not a lot of people have the luxury of access to a real plant with real parts that they can take a model and their camera in to do a shoot. Sheese. I'm sure that you are very knowledgeable on the subject since you clearly saw that these were old brake parts. I bet most people wouldn't know that. That is like me looking at a guitar shot and saying, since I am a guitarist, that it's all wrong because his fingers are not in the shape of a real chord and he's holding the pick wrong! A bit nit-picky, IMO.
Should we say that all the exterior shots of plants annev factories and stuff are 'gratuitous' architecture shots? |
Um No Snap-On, Mac, Matco, Cornwell, SK, (craftsman never did) do this kinda calender in the last 10 years, because a a certian court case. Go look that up on your own. I still don't find the image industrial. |
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12/07/2005 01:45:36 AM · #36 |
Still made and still a big seller.
Pirelli Calendar |
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12/07/2005 01:59:54 AM · #37 |
Bear, that was one of the best worded post I've ever seen in my life.
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Dunno as an auto shop owner,that stuff has no way to be seen by my customers. Aside from DPC that in a business should never posted by a business. The Cavets are far to many... |
The point isn't the Political Correctness of hanging it in a car shop, but that images like this are part of the history of pin-up and Americana. |
But is it industrial,is it making something? grinding on a backing plate albeit Nice looking image, but begs further question, why the gloves, why not safety glasses, some kinda skin protection, or was it pushed nude art? |
Well, ALL images of that historical genre fotomann is emulating (by his own words) existed for a single purpose: to do the selling for a tool or parts or tire company (or whatever) in an unregenerately "male" environment (of the time) by appealing to prurient interests with sexy images. It was a part of automotive marketing for a long time, although of course not completely nude when done commercially. THAT's what this image is recalling, sort of a slice of history. And I guess there's the whole rosie-the-riveter thing, from WWII; this image, from its low angle, very much recalls some of the rosie-riveter posters, but those were paintings of course.
I think it's a skillful piece of nostalgia, I think, and rather a takeoff on the genre just in that it's completely nude and slightly outrageous. But the thing of it is, those images, collectively, shout out that Sex Sells! And I presume a LOT of voters just followed that apth, if only subliminally, and refused BE stereotyped and voted it down. Seems simple to me.
It's all fine-and-well for fotoman to stake out the "art" territory for this (and I tend to be more in agreement than disagreement with that) but that's just HIS perception, and anyone who sees this as an attempt to "buy" their vote with nudity also has a valid perception as far as I'm concerned. The image was guaranteed to get votes all over the spectrum and it did :-)
R. |
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12/07/2005 02:16:47 AM · #38 |
There has been a transition in DPC for quite a while. Sometime ago the images of Dr. Jones were readilly accepted. It is now very hard to score with these images. Yes, it all depends on presentation and class, but consider, most photographers here have no access to nudes and even if they did it may not be to their liking. Some even resent the nude in a sexy manner like they shy away from cigarettes and alcohol. This impinging or limitation will place many images in jeopardy. I can look and appreciate images in as many modes as you can present them as i do not exhibit a predisposition to any form of art. Some do and they do so most vehemently, but then that is the nature of the site. The place has grown but artistic wise it is still slightly behind insome ways. There are many that are quick to censor because they have their vision of what this place should be and they have their vision of what art is. I believe there is room for all art exhibited.
Now, about your image. I liked it and commented accordingly but all the same it does not truly touch upon the challenge of the industrial even though it portrays an industrial atmosphere. Read the threads and follow the confusion regarding challenge descriptions. When you go a little too out some voters will not care about technique or image quality. They simply press the one or the two. Like many, I have been a victim also (of the low vote), but then I deal with what is before me.
In a different challenge such as nudes it may have scored better but nothing approaching the BLUE because there are voters that will not allow it to surface that high. Many different individuals and each votes their conscience whether right or wrong. You must remember that some consider photography a craft and never step into the artistic realm. Then you may preached by the righteous that such images are in bad taste. They will tell you that it offends them because it touches a sore spot in them. Welcome to the club. |
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12/07/2005 02:18:09 AM · #39 |
I like gratuitous nudity ;-) and think this is a fine example of its type, and really quite tasteful, perhaps the nipple could have been covered but I don't think it would have made a big difference.
BUT
To win a ribbon on DPC you need to come up with an image that EVERYONE likes. History shows that images percieved to be gratuitously erotic will not win a ribbon here - a sizable minority will vote 1 no matter how well the image is done. Be happy with your image, its fantastic. Just not an image that appeals to everyone, that all. |
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12/07/2005 02:42:28 AM · #40 |
I'm feeling a bit better about it... I did a little statistices. If I were to drop all the 1 and 2 votes I would have scored 6.2975, definitely not bad, but still not close to a ribbon either.
Definitely did better than my Too Early is doing and it's about as G-rated as G gets.
Anyway, thanks for all the comments and praise. You guys are all awesome.
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12/07/2005 03:11:24 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
And some people do consider pin-up a valid art form. |
Ask Betty Paige on that one! An American Icon because of photos that are very similar in feel to this.
I love it. And if there is an auto shop in America that does not have something like this on the wall somewhere....well. My Dad had an auto shop and racing team, and I grew up seeing this type of thing. Big Deal! Naked woman. THAT is art! Under the clothes they are all naked!!
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12/07/2005 03:12:21 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by hokie:
I am not usually somebody that says one thing or another about how someone else votes however...
Anybody who voted less than a 5 on this photo should not be allowed to vote any longer at this site. If photos like this are rated "below average" I just don't see the incentive to even participate here for people trying to do anything of extra-ordinary work.
A great photo...congratulations :-D |
This is the real deal.
Taste and preference are one thing, but I completely agree that such votes and voters need to be accounted for... round 'em up, brand 'em as idiots, and deny them the right to vote. Yeah, thats the ticket!
Seriously, the voting system of this site is so deeply flawed. It's not really anyones fault, either, its just the way it is. I'm sure D and L have done what they can to account for "troll" voting, but nothing in place so far does anything to prevent stupid voting.
Call me harsh, but I think people should have to earn the right to vote around here. It should be a privilege, not a right. And I would rather have 50 thoughtful votes than 300 mindless ones. I think such a move could go a long way towards making this a more constructive place to learn as well. Allow any idiot to comment, but only let the ones that have exhibited some degree of photographic and artistic competence carry the right to vote.
And things seem much worse in the Open challenges for these kinds of images. I honestly feel it would have scored far better in a members challenge. |
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12/07/2005 03:12:39 AM · #43 |
Here's an outtake from the shoot. Fully clothed and with GOGGLES. Just to see what the low voters claim they wanted.
Fully clothed and goggled outtake
Tell me what ya'll think. Did I make the right choice.
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12/07/2005 03:14:30 AM · #44 |
Nah! Gratuitous or not, I like the entry :) BTW who's the girl?
edit spelling. It's late :(
Message edited by author 2005-12-07 03:14:52. |
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12/07/2005 03:16:19 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Here's an outtake from the shoot. Fully clothed and with GOGGLES. Just to see what the low voters claim they wanted.
Fully clothed and goggled outtake
Tell me what ya'll think. Did I make the right choice. |
I much prefer the original one. I still think overalls slightly open would of worked maybe? Be proud of the photo you took. You did well even if not everyone agreed! |
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12/07/2005 03:18:13 AM · #46 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Here's an outtake from the shoot. Fully clothed and with GOGGLES. Just to see what the low voters claim they wanted.
Fully clothed and goggled outtake
Tell me what ya'll think. Did I make the right choice. |
Where the hell are her leather gloves?? Ever heard of OSHA regs?? She should also have like some coveralls and here hair in a net or something. LOL
The nude was better. Like I said, be proud of it and move on. Just stay true to your art, man. ;-) |
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12/07/2005 03:19:34 AM · #47 |
A friend of a friend. I actually was introduced to her on Myspace.com, which BTW is a great place to find raw talent.
The most important person to like it is HER. She loves it. I was really hoping it'd score well for her, but oooh well.
Originally posted by Rikki:
Nah! Gratuitous or not, I like the entry :) BTW who's the girl?
edit spelling. It's late :( |
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12/07/2005 03:20:06 AM · #48 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Just stay true to your art, man. ;-) |
Was that a "self-plug" Art? :P |
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12/07/2005 03:20:39 AM · #49 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Here's an outtake from the shoot. Fully clothed and with GOGGLES. Just to see what the low voters claim they wanted.
Fully clothed and goggled outtake
Tell me what ya'll think. Did I make the right choice. |
Umm....You have got to forget about this man and let it go :-)
Your photo is perfect or as close as you can get without actual studio expertise. Don't over anal-yze it :-D
This was easily your best photo you have entered here. Now go out and recapture that magic!!!
Message edited by author 2005-12-07 03:21:04.
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12/07/2005 03:21:13 AM · #50 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Where the hell are her leather gloves?? Ever heard of OSHA regs?? She should also have like some coveralls and here hair in a net or something. LOL |
The OSHA inspector was too busy snickering in the corner :-)
Originally posted by hokie:
Your photo is perfect or as close as you can get without actual studio expertise. |
Thanks, I actually do have studio experience, just not studio equipment.
Message edited by author 2005-12-07 03:25:08.
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