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04/19/2006 01:46:22 PM · #101 |
Fantastic! What a series! Quite exceptional work if you ask me. I wish I lived in LA so I could go see 'em in person.
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04/19/2006 01:50:09 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
You suggest that it would take more than a lollypop taken away in a lot of the cases to get a child to cry that vehemently (as do others as well), but speaking from 10 years of childcare experience.. well, no, 99% of the time, taking a lollypop away *IS* all it takes to get that level of outright anger and tears from a child. |
That's irrelevant. The issue for me is that someone is INTENTIONALLY making a child unhappy simply for their own personal enjoyment. I don't care HOW it is done. You justify it because it CAN be done by taking away a lollipop. What right does the photographer have to take away that lollipop JUST to make the child cry? NONE. They are assuming a right that the child has not given them. Yes, a child will cry like this over a lollipop. Mine has done so many times. However, it has NEVER been done simply to make him cry. If anyone were to do so, he or she would be very very very sorry in the very near future. His psyche, his confidence, and his trust are very important things.
This is simply wrong. I don't care what your experience is, and I don't care about the short term recovery capability of a child. You cut me, I will bleed, and yes, I will heal. But that still gives you no right to cut me.
And a photographer has no right to intentionally emotionally cut a child in order to promote a political viewpoint. None. It IS abuse, and if you define it otherwise, you desperately need to reconsider. |
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04/19/2006 01:52:38 PM · #103 |
Philosophical opinion....
Why do we categorize emotions as good or bad? All emotions are part of who we are and what make us whole.
There isn't "good" and "bad" in emotions. Emotions are just emotions. How we, as adults interpret and perceive them is another story. This perception is brought on by our societical values, education, propaganda, media
Wheather a child is crying for a few minutes or laughing, it's an emotion set in time and that will pass.
It reminds me of a shoot I did with kids not too long ago where I asked the mother to tickle her children to make them laugh since they weren't cooperating (as children do somtimes). Well, it worked, got my images. Was I selfish for doing this? Yes! I wanted laughing children and I used manipulation to get what I wanted. In the line of respecting the parents' wished and respecting the child's safety, I would do the same type of manipulation to get tears (ensuring that positive reinforcement was then given to the child).
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04/19/2006 01:59:26 PM · #104 |
look most all of you guys are overeacting jill is one of the world top-nouch photographers...there is a famous question always asked to the photojurilism major...that is if your subject is in diere need of something that you could help them with, do you help them or take the photo?
its as simple as that jill is a photographer she takes photos of subjects that intregue her, and brings out things in her images that most have never seen in the amazing way she is able to capture them. (lighting wise she IS the BEST)
if you want to go really far with it, she has a series of monkey photos...now the hell if i'm going to be PC about it. monkeys belong in the wild, not in jills photo studio, those monkey should be released instantly instead of her taking their pictures....
oh and remember the kids get paid for their salty tears and in some cases they get the lollypop back...but only if jill doesn't want to finnish it her self.
_bran(she is the best of the best and a photographer that acts with permition they arn't just kids off the street)do_
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04/19/2006 02:02:20 PM · #105 |
| wow, she really is good. People look too plastic but still very good. |
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04/19/2006 02:06:16 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by kosmikkreeper:
Why do we categorize emotions as good or bad? All emotions are part of who we are and what make us whole.
There isn't "good" and "bad" in emotions. Emotions are just emotions. How we, as adults interpret and perceive them is another story. This perception is brought on by our societical values, education, propaganda, media
Wheather a child is crying for a few minutes or laughing, it's an emotion set in time and that will pass. |
Well said. |
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04/19/2006 02:07:30 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by nards656:
Originally posted by Artyste:
You suggest that it would take more than a lollypop taken away in a lot of the cases to get a child to cry that vehemently (as do others as well), but speaking from 10 years of childcare experience.. well, no, 99% of the time, taking a lollypop away *IS* all it takes to get that level of outright anger and tears from a child. |
That's irrelevant. The issue for me is that someone is INTENTIONALLY making a child unhappy simply for their own personal enjoyment. I don't care HOW it is done. You justify it because it CAN be done by taking away a lollipop. What right does the photographer have to take away that lollipop JUST to make the child cry? NONE. They are assuming a right that the child has not given them. Yes, a child will cry like this over a lollipop. Mine has done so many times. However, it has NEVER been done simply to make him cry. If anyone were to do so, he or she would be very very very sorry in the very near future. His psyche, his confidence, and his trust are very important things.
This is simply wrong. I don't care what your experience is, and I don't care about the short term recovery capability of a child. You cut me, I will bleed, and yes, I will heal. But that still gives you no right to cut me.
And a photographer has no right to intentionally emotionally cut a child in order to promote a political viewpoint. None. It IS abuse, and if you define it otherwise, you desperately need to reconsider. |
I don't fully agree, and although many things in this thread have got me thinking a lot, such a black and white stance is not one of them. Manipulating the people around us, including children, for numerous purposes, is something that is done *all the time*. Whether it is to invoke a negative emotion, a positive emotion, for monetary/artistic/political/etc. gain... we do it, and it's not always a HORRIBLE THING. The problem here is that people continue to believe that children are somehow exempt from humanity. That they belong to a special group of beings that need constant sheltering and protection from imaginary evils, and then, ironically, that sheltering and protection often lead to them being exposed to real evils.
In my mind, this work is done in a set environment, with parental consent and observation, and is *no* different, whatsoever, than a child on a movie set being manipulated to cry for a scene, and I've seen some movies where toddlers are in absolute fits for the scenes, and I doubt the methods used are any different. I've never seen an outcry over that.
Also, you are making the assumption that this is simply for the photographers "own personal enjoyment". Which is entirely unfounded. This is for her art and statements, however you may disagree with them, and that's not the same thing. The way you make it sound, it's some woman in a room poking kids and then giggling away when they cry.
That's *my* viewpoint. You have yours, but I won't be reconsidering that it is child *abuse* in anyway, shape, or form.. because quite frankly, I've seen real child abuse first hand, second hand, and third hand, and this comes as close to child abuse as putting a grasshopper in your fridge for a bit to slow them down for a macro photo comes to animal abuse... and even then, not even really to that degree. IMO
Message edited by author 2006-04-19 14:08:47. |
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04/19/2006 02:14:14 PM · #108 |
The whole point of this is to tear at our heart-strings ... especially for parents.
Mission accomplished.
As far as the treatment of the kids ...
Someone with so much skill and talent could have gotten away with 3 or 7 of these images ... not really sure how much more "artistic" and "politcally charged" it is to have many more. Are these parents selling their kids for money? To me, these actually aren't that amazing from a photography standpoint. The POV is pretty much the same ... the studio setup is the same ...
It appears to be a child experiment that just doesn't work for me - but does leave an impression so one again ... mission accomplished. How much richer are the parents again?
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04/19/2006 02:21:34 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by "kosmikkreeper":
Why do we categorize emotions as good or bad? All emotions are part of who we are and what make us whole. |
The same reason we would categorize me as "BAD" if I beat you over the head with a golf club. Sorry, there are some things which are just BAD. Why is losing a loved one bad? Why is pain bad? Why is it a bad idea to stare at the sun for 10 minutes?
Come on....
Originally posted by "kosmikkreeper":
There isn't "good" and "bad" in emotions. Emotions are just emotions. How we, as adults interpret and perceive them is another story. |
That is such crap. Great philosophical discussion...but utter horse cocky in real life. And everyone knows it. And people who say such crap never accept it toward themselves.
Originally posted by "kosmikkreeper":
Wheather a child is crying for a few minutes or laughing, it's an emotion set in time and that will pass. |
Come on, that's like saying...hey who cares if we kill the child. He's going to die anyways, so does it really matter.
"that is if your subject is in diere need of something that you could help them with, do you help them or take the photo?"
Originally posted by "fotodude":
The answer is the difference between an egotist and a human. If you have the opportunity to either save someone or take a shot of someone in peril and you take the shot over saving them. You are a despicable egotist. |
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04/19/2006 02:24:00 PM · #110 |
Originally posted by kosmikkreeper:
Why do we categorize emotions as good or bad? All emotions are part of who we are and what make us whole. |
Because some emotions are good for you and some emotions are bad for you.
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04/19/2006 02:24:56 PM · #111 |
If I had been asked to be a model for this exhibit, I imagine the photographer sitting me down and explaining what she wanted from me. Then, she would have to help me get into that screaming and crying frame of mind in some way. Method acting, if you will. Nobody would be upset if it was Tom Cruise and Gwenyth Paltrow bawling their eyes out in these shots. Actors and actresses manipulate their feelings for performances all the time (with the help of their directors).
I am not sure that the kids are really as traumatized as they look in these shots. Kids are really, really good actors at times and capable of awfully convincing performances. Many seem to be assuming that a 2 year old couldn't understand what was going on in the way that an adult could if they were being asked to do the same thing. My daughter is a few months over 2, and I think that 2 year olds understand things alot better than people think.
I wasn't there when these were being shot, but I do think it's possible that my acting scenario has some merit.
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04/19/2006 02:26:33 PM · #112 |
To me she has over processed some studio shots of kids to make them look very unnatural emotional crowd pleasers.
Now here is a natural candid cry after a minor discussion with his brother. 
Natural seem so much better to me. Just my thoughts. |
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04/19/2006 02:27:05 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by kosmikkreeper:
Why do we categorize emotions as good or bad? All emotions are part of who we are and what make us whole. |
Because some emotions are good for you and some emotions are bad for you. |
Not quite true.
Anger can be healthy
So can sadness, grief, fear, frustration, etc.
It's how we *deal* with these emotions and what we do with them that is the difference. Emotions themselves aren't anything but emotions, and everyone one of us will experience most or all of them, at all points in our lives. |
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04/19/2006 02:28:28 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by elru21:
I wasn't there when these were being shot, but I do think it's possible that my acting scenario has some merit. |
Especially when you consider she shoots out of Los Angeles, where there's no shortage of wannabe actors. Which of course brings up the whole issue of "stage parents" agreeing to have their kids manipulated on the theory that any exposure like this is priceless, so it doesn't really help this argument at all does it?
R.
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04/19/2006 02:29:33 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by elru21:
I wasn't there when these were being shot, but I do think it's possible that my acting scenario has some merit. |
Especially when you consider she shoots out of Los Angeles, where there's no shortage of wannabe actors. Which of course brings up the whole issue of "stage parents" agreeing to have their kids manipulated on the theory that any exposure like this is priceless, so it doesn't really help this argument at all does it?
R. |
Which of course brings up a whole *OTHER* issue about society at large, and the celebrity industry in general ;) |
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04/19/2006 02:31:37 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by kosmikkreeper:
Why do we categorize emotions as good or bad? All emotions are part of who we are and what make us whole. |
Because some emotions are good for you and some emotions are bad for you. |
This is the lamest statement I've seen in this thread.
So, life should be all happy smiles and joy? I guess you can have that for a while if you keep popping the valium, but that's not living. How do you know if you're happy if you've never been sad?
You can say the same thing about food, some food is good for you and some food is bad. Are you ready for a life of only grilled chicken and steamed veggies?
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04/19/2006 02:32:05 PM · #117 |
If I were approached by this woman to photograph my children (when they were 3 or younger) and she explained what she wanted to do and the methods she was using...I would decline. I think 'most parents' feel this way. Same with movies...I wouldn't subject my kids to being prepped to cry (in that fashion) in the movies either.
Now if they were older and made a conscious decision to want to be photographed or in movies that would be another story.
But that's just my opinion :)
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04/19/2006 02:35:33 PM · #118 |
Slightly more powerful image of children crying:
//www.vietnamwar.com/phanthikimphuc.htm
Message edited by author 2006-04-19 14:36:11.
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04/19/2006 02:44:25 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by elru21:
I wasn't there when these were being shot, but I do think it's possible that my acting scenario has some merit. |
Especially when you consider she shoots out of Los Angeles, where there's no shortage of wannabe actors. Which of course brings up the whole issue of "stage parents" agreeing to have their kids manipulated on the theory that any exposure like this is priceless, so it doesn't really help this argument at all does it?
R. |
There's a whole d****d network TV show about trading parents, and the BS the kids have to put up with.
The whole purpose of this show seems to be to film the negative emotional negativity which comes from suddenly having a stepmom instead of your real mother. It seems to have no other point to make -- unlike this artistic exhibition -- it is merely a chance for the viewing public to witness families being traumatized.
I think people's outrage would be better-directed there ... |
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04/19/2006 02:48:14 PM · #120 |
Anger can be healthy
So can sadness, grief, fear, frustration, etc.
[[[ Really, funny, I don't see any way it can be healthy. Can it be healthier to express your anger, grief, or fears rather than keeping them pent up. Yes. But no, these are never healthy experiences. ]]]
"So, life should be all happy smiles and joy? "
[[[ Yes....IT SHOULD BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Of course it's not....hence life has unhealthy aspects. But please show me a single good mother who would choose a world where her child could die of disease or injury over one in which such worries did not exist. ]]] |
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04/19/2006 02:49:56 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
There's a whole d****d network TV show about trading parents, and the BS the kids have to put up with.
The whole purpose of this show seems to be to film the negative emotional negativity which comes from suddenly having a stepmom instead of your real mother. It seems to have no other point to make -- unlike this artistic exhibition -- it is merely a chance for the viewing public to witness families being traumatized.
I think people's outrage would be better-directed there ... |
I totally agree with you. About "reality shows" in general, actually; with few exceptions, they feed on a desire to see people debased in various ways, it seems to me.
R.
Message edited by author 2006-04-19 14:51:14.
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04/19/2006 02:50:34 PM · #122 |
^ Wow.... way to take this to an extreme!!! First we are talking about a lollipop and now it has turned into the child dying from disease!
This whole thread is rediculous and before I get more worked up over it..... BLOCKED!
(have fun people)
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04/19/2006 02:51:04 PM · #123 |
theSaj -- I understand the point you are trying to make, but you're comparing apples (death, tragedy) to oranges (some tears at a minor slight.) No mother wants their child to experience tragic death or disease, but I don't know of any mother, especially my own, who shields her child from normal human emotions and experiences.
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04/19/2006 02:53:20 PM · #124 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by kosmikkreeper:
Why do we categorize emotions as good or bad? All emotions are part of who we are and what make us whole. |
Because some emotions are good for you and some emotions are bad for you. |
This is the lamest statement I've seen in this thread.
So, life should be all happy smiles and joy? I guess you can have that for a while if you keep popping the valium, but that's not living. How do you know if you're happy if you've never been sad?
You can say the same thing about food, some food is good for you and some food is bad. Are you ready for a life of only grilled chicken and steamed veggies? |
No one said you shouldn't encounter other emotions??? What thread are you reading? Please don't read more into it then what I typed. Obviously life has it's ups and downs and you need to experince everything to be complete.
I believe it has been proven that prolonged anger or sadness is physically bad for your body. I would not call that a lame argument???
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04/19/2006 02:58:57 PM · #125 |
Originally posted by colyla:
If I were approached by this woman to photograph my children (when they were 3 or younger) and she explained what she wanted to do and the methods she was using...I would decline. I think 'most parents' feel this way. |
I grew up in the Los Angeles area. Some of the kids I went to school with had mom's who would have done anything to get their kids faces on screen, in print ads etc. and I do mean anything. They were scary. I'm betting these mom's would burn their child's favorite lovey in front of them to make them cry if that's what it took. Taking a lollipop away from their child would have been a very minimum effort. Especially if it meant their child would get a photo in a major gallery exhibit and to add another line on a resume -- even at 3 years old.
Years of therapy to recover I'm betting!
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