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05/18/2006 07:46:33 PM · #151 |
Originally posted by jsugi:
appologies....will follow the rules. |
no problem. I see you're new. Welcome and enjoy! :)
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05/18/2006 07:51:59 PM · #152 |
Originally posted by idnic:
no problem. I see you're new. Welcome and enjoy! :) |
No brown shirt for you until you show no mercy!! |
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05/18/2006 07:53:54 PM · #153 |
Originally posted by alfresco:
No brown shirt for you until you show no mercy!! |
LOL get back under your rock!
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05/19/2006 02:54:51 AM · #154 |
Originally posted by ragamuffingirl:
I believe flowers, if they're in a vase, pot, whatever do meet the challenge. I think some of us are just sick of seeing them in EVERY challenge. Use some imagination and creativity folks!
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I used some creativity and I'm rewarded with a 4.8. My photo isn't alive, it's pleasing on the eye, in focus, good color. It's very, very discouraging. But what's new. I had high hopes for a good score this time after the last challenge producing my highest rated entry. |
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05/19/2006 03:04:40 AM · #155 |
Originally posted by mad_brewer:
For those voting down for DNMC, hopefully you are leaving comments stating that. My score is much lower than I thought it would be and I don't know if it's because many people see it as DNMC or just don't like it. It's not that the score bothers me, but why it's getting low votes. I cannot learn if I don't know what is wrong with it.
I am becoming more and more convinced that if somebody gives a 1, 2, or 3 score, they should have to leave a comment or the vote doesn't count. Would the trolls go away?? |
I totally second that! People have different tastes, that's a given. If I'm scoring low when I think it should be higher, without comments for the poor scores I have no clue as to what was wrong with the photo.
Would it slow down voting. Heck ya. The question is, is this a "contest" only site or a "contest" site that helps you learn? I much prefer the latter. I didn't renew my membership when it came up because I was getting beat up with very little comment as to why. I'm back now with a new attitude and looking for better quality photos. Without feedback however it's like an abusive relationship. |
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05/19/2006 08:17:43 AM · #156 |
| I went back to look at how i scored this challenge and the comments. I noticed that I commented on almost every photo (except 1) that I scored 8 or higher. Commented on half the ones I scored a 7, 1/3rd of the ones I scored a 6. Very very few of 5 or 4. A little more than half of the 3's and all of the 2's and 1's or Did not meet challenges. (not all the DNMC got a 1 or a 2). |
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05/19/2006 09:29:48 AM · #157 |
Originally posted by KiwiPix:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Why is it there are unending nitpicking discussions about what does and does not not meet a challenge but few on how to take a good photograph for one? |
Because we of inquiring minds wish to listen and learn about all manner of things. ...
What worries me more is those for whom these discussions are disturbing. That free and open debate troubles them is not a good sign. We all need to expand our minds, share views (right or wrong) and debate the finer points of life, in this case photographic life. To not do so breeds the justification to limit free speech and eventually fundamentalism, dictatorships and extremism. |
Discussions like this do not bother me at all. I certainly believe in open and uninhibited discussion.
What bothers me is these discussions have little to do with taking good pictures or improving your photography. I'm bothered they are rampant on this site and occur far more often than substantive discussions that can actually improve your photography, like this one:
Learning Thread — Landscape Photography
This is a photography and not a semantics site, isn't it?
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05/19/2006 09:31:58 AM · #158 |
I have finished voting (100% since I entered lens cap). I commented on a few as I was voting, but am now going back through. I have commented on all my 1's and am starting on the 2's. I have been commenting less recently because so many people seem to resent the comments, but I feel this challenge deserves more. First I am saying why I think the photo is DNMC, then I am giving comments on the photo itself. It might take me until Sunday to finish!
Edit: I just realized I have until Tuesday to make my comments! I have now voted 100% of Environmental Portrait, and found many that DNMC, several are not even portraits. I would like to comment on them also. Hope my fingers and keyboard can last that long!
Message edited by author 2006-05-19 10:03:28.
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05/19/2006 09:44:08 AM · #159 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
I have finished voting (100% since I entered lens cap). I commented on a few as I was voting, but am now going back through. I have commented on all my 1's and am starting on the 2's. I have been commenting less recently because so many people seem to resent the comments, but I feel this challenge deserves more. First I am saying why I think the photo is DNMC, then I am giving comments on the photo itself. It might take me until Sunday to finish! |
Keep up with giving the comments! I can handle DNMC (if commenter feels that way) and any constructive criticism. If others don't want comments they shouldn't enter the challenge.
FWIW, I feel strongly about this subject because I have one foot in the box and my shot isn't completely out of the box. And my score is suffering because of it.
stdavidson has the right angle here. I suggest somebody who really knows how to take a good still life start the thread. I would do it, but according to the voters I don't even know what still life is!
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05/19/2006 10:09:38 AM · #160 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
I have finished voting (100% since I entered lens cap). I commented on a few as I was voting, but am now going back through. I have commented on all my 1's and am starting on the 2's. I have been commenting less recently because so many people seem to resent the comments, but I feel this challenge deserves more. First I am saying why I think the photo is DNMC, then I am giving comments on the photo itself. It might take me until Sunday to finish! |
If your comments frequently and primarily refer to an image failing to meet a challenge then I can understand why people would resent them. Saying something fails to meet the challenge is basically telling the photographer that you know more about their photograph than they do.
Another thing, you might try identifying the positives about an image before the criticism. People will react better to criticisms if you recognize what they did good in your analysis. EVERY image has something good about it.
It may be better if you restricted comments to the photography itself. If you give an image a score lower than 5 then it has more to do with the quality of the photograph than the challenge topic anyway. You might find better acceptance of your comments if you do.
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05/19/2006 10:10:27 AM · #161 |
Originally posted by mad_brewer:
... stdavidson has the right angle here. I suggest somebody who really knows how to take a good still life start the thread. ... |
Sounds fine to me - AFTER voting has finished. Thanks. ;^) |
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05/19/2006 10:31:14 AM · #162 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
If your comments frequently and primarily refer to an image failing to meet a challenge then I can understand why people would resent them. Saying something fails to meet the challenge is basically telling the photographer that you know more about their photograph than they do.
Another thing, you might try identifying the positives about an image before the criticism. People will react better to criticisms if you recognize what they did good in your analysis. EVERY image has something good about it.
It may be better if you restricted comments to the photography itself. If you give an image a score lower than 5 then it has more to do with the quality of the photograph than the challenge topic anyway. You might find better acceptance of your comments if you do. |
You give some good advice on how to make a comment helpful, but I want to stress that I find ALL comments helpful, because at the very least they give me some hint at a person's initial reaction to my shot.
Please feel free to comment even if it's only a word or two, even if it's only "DNMC."
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05/19/2006 10:36:28 AM · #163 |
Originally posted by mad_brewer:
stdavidson has the right angle here. I suggest somebody who really knows how to take a good still life start the thread. I would do it, but according to the voters I don't even know what still life is! |
I would suggest, based on this discussion, that many of the voters here have very narrow views of what "still life" really is.
Many appear hung up on the concept of "inanimate" and are totally oblivious of the more compelling aspects of still life photography.
For some, if an image contains anything organic, such as a flower, that cannot possibly be still life because it is not "inanimate". Truth is static ARRANGEMENTS are the hallmark of still life imagery. Flowers have always been a primary subject for still life.
Still life are primarily static images. A good still life is an arrangement of objects, completely controlled by the photographer, where the intention is to conduct a study of lighting, shape, texture and/or form. That seems to have been overlooked in this discussion.
There are many voters here that feel compelled to lower images scores based on challenge topic, perhaps because they are unable to recognized and evaluate photographic excellence. For many, DNMC is a convenient mechanisnm to rate images lower.
Perhaps if we looked for reasons to rate images higher rather than to rate them lower we'd all be better off.
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05/19/2006 10:42:49 AM · #164 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by chaimelle:
I have finished voting (100% since I entered lens cap). I commented on a few as I was voting, but am now going back through. I have commented on all my 1's and am starting on the 2's. I have been commenting less recently because so many people seem to resent the comments, but I feel this challenge deserves more. First I am saying why I think the photo is DNMC, then I am giving comments on the photo itself. It might take me until Sunday to finish! |
If your comments frequently and primarily refer to an image failing to meet a challenge then I can understand why people would resent them. Saying something fails to meet the challenge is basically telling the photographer that you know more about their photograph than they do.
Another thing, you might try identifying the positives about an image before the criticism. People will react better to criticisms if you recognize what they did good in your analysis. EVERY image has something good about it.
It may be better if you restricted comments to the photography itself. If you give an image a score lower than 5 then it has more to do with the quality of the photograph than the challenge topic anyway. You might find better acceptance of your comments if you do. |
When I make a comment I am giving my opinion. I know that, for me, a red m&m will be DNMC in a green challenge. That doesn't mean I know more about a photograph or the challenge than the photographer, but IMO they have not successfully taken a shot that meets the criteria. Meeting the challenge is very important to me and DNMC usually results in a 1-3 vote, so low votes do not always mean a "bad" photo.
Some photographers get upset when anything is suggested about their work (which is why I think it would be helpful to have a box to check declaring whether you want comments or not) while others beg for any feedback. I generally try to say something positive followed by "I would like this better if ...", but as I (and probably most voters) do not have time to spend 5-10 minutes on each comment sometimes they are shorter than they could be.
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05/19/2006 10:48:35 AM · #165 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
If your comments frequently and primarily refer to an image failing to meet a challenge then I can understand why people would resent them. Saying something fails to meet the challenge is basically telling the photographer that you know more about their photograph than they do.
Another thing, you might try identifying the positives about an image before the criticism. People will react better to criticisms if you recognize what they did good in your analysis. EVERY image has something good about it.
It may be better if you restricted comments to the photography itself. If you give an image a score lower than 5 then it has more to do with the quality of the photograph than the challenge topic anyway. You might find better acceptance of your comments if you do. |
You give some good advice on how to make a comment helpful, but I want to stress that I find ALL comments helpful, because at the very least they give me some hint at a person's initial reaction to my shot.
Please feel free to comment even if it's only a word or two, even if it's only "DNMC." |
All comments have relevence. You are correct. I prefer mine to be meaningful to help a person to improve their own photographic skill and that is why my serious comments primarily refer to the quality of the photograph itself. Challenge topic is insignificant compared to that.
The primary reason people are upset about the reactions they get to comments they make on images is really their own fault. They often forget to recognize and comment on what is right about an image. They fail to understanding that is more useful than what is wrong with an image. We are quick to criticize yet slow to praise. There is something wrong with that.
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05/19/2006 10:56:27 AM · #166 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
When I make a comment I am giving my opinion. ... Meeting the challenge is very important to me and DNMC usually results in a 1-3 vote, so low votes do not always mean a "bad" photo. |
You said earlier,"I have been commenting less recently because so many people seem to resent the comments"
I suggest you do not comment, as you have stated here, when you vote an image 1-3 because you felt it did not meet the challenge.
There is nothing wrong with your view, it is how you feel. But don't ever expect a photographer to react well to it and making such a comment will do little to improve their photography. Might be best if you did not comment at all under those conditions.
Message edited by author 2006-05-19 11:03:58.
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05/19/2006 12:07:54 PM · #167 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
The primary reason people are upset about the reactions they get to comments they make on images is really their own fault. They often forget to recognize and comment on what is right about an image. They fail to understanding that is more useful than what is wrong with an image. We are quick to criticize yet slow to praise. There is something wrong with that. |
Any time someone gets "upset" you can argue that it's that person's "own fault." When a photographer gets upset over a comment, that is also his/her own fault. Photographers should realize that any comment that is not dishonest is helpful.
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05/19/2006 12:38:29 PM · #168 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by chaimelle:
When I make a comment I am giving my opinion. ... Meeting the challenge is very important to me and DNMC usually results in a 1-3 vote, so low votes do not always mean a "bad" photo. |
You said earlier,"I have been commenting less recently because so many people seem to resent the comments"
I suggest you do not comment, as you have stated here, when you vote an image 1-3 because you felt it did not meet the challenge.
There is nothing wrong with your view, it is how you feel. But don't ever expect a photographer to react well to it and making such a comment will do little to improve their photography. Might be best if you did not comment at all under those conditions. |
I have felt that every photo I have entered has "met the challenge". I have gotten a few DNMC comments, usually with a reason stated. I usually can see where they are coming from even though I may not agree. I do not get upset by this at all. The reaction I don't like is when I say "I would like this shot if it was more in focus" and I get a PM telling me how uneducated I am for not realizing that is what the photog was going for and how wonderful the shot is because of it. People can take their shots and process them any way they want to, my way is not the "right" way, only what I like. Sometimes an effect (focus, lighting, DOF etc.) is done on purpose, sometimes it is because the photog has not mastered some skill. There is no way to know during the voting so comments are given on what is seen.
From your replies I assume you are totally happy with your work and do not need comments (especially from those who would find fault). It is most unfortunate that I cannot tell which are your entries so as to avoid commenting on them.
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05/19/2006 01:23:37 PM · #169 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
All comments have relevence. You are correct. I prefer mine to be meaningful to help a person to improve their own photographic skill and that is why my serious comments primarily refer to the quality of the photograph itself. Challenge topic is insignificant compared to that.
The primary reason people are upset about the reactions they get to comments they make on images is really their own fault. They often forget to recognize and comment on what is right about an image. They fail to understanding that is more useful than what is wrong with an image. We are quick to criticize yet slow to praise. There is something wrong with that. |
“Challenge topic is insignificant compared to that”
I believe that this statement is fundamentally wrong. We are entering a challenge that has a topic and are required by the rules of the site to vote according to our interpretation of that challenge topic so therefore comments about the challenge topic should be most welcomed.
To be shown via comments what is wrong with a photo is perfect way of learning “ we learn by our mistakes” I always enjoy when people find faults with my entries. It may be that you don’t want to here about the faults but that is how we learn and should be encouraged.
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05/19/2006 01:33:16 PM · #170 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
“Challenge topic is insignificant compared to that” |
I believe that this statement is fundamentally wrong. We are entering a challenge that has a topic and are required by the rules of the site to vote according to our interpretation of that challenge topic so therefore comments about the challenge topic should be most welcomed.
To be shown via comments what is wrong with a photo is perfect way of learning “ we learn by our mistakes” I always enjoy when people find faults with my entries. It may be that you don’t want to here about the faults but that is how we learn and should be encouraged. |
I don't think he said what you think he said. He said "compared to that" i.e. the photographic merits of the photo it is insignificant and I agree with that. People are here to learn how to shoot better photos not how to avoid DNMC votes on a challenge about Yellow or whatever silly themes we use to motivate the masses to shoot.
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05/19/2006 01:41:14 PM · #171 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
“Challenge topic is insignificant compared to that”
I believe that this statement is fundamentally wrong. We are entering a challenge that has a topic and are required by the rules of the site to vote according to our interpretation of that challenge topic so therefore comments about the challenge topic should be most welcomed.
To be shown via comments what is wrong with a photo is perfect way of learning “ we learn by our mistakes” I always enjoy when people find faults with my entries. It may be that you don’t want to here about the faults but that is how we learn and should be encouraged. |
I have agree here. If you enter a challenge, the first thing to learn is if you grasped the right idea. Thats all in the set up of the photo before you even press the shutter button. Set-up and grasping the right idea is KEY to a photo. Next is how you take the photo. If you are asked to take a picture of a basketball and you come back with a lovely picture of a styrofoam cup, shouldn't that someone tell you that isn't what they were looking for?
And telling someone whats wrong with a photo is the best way to learn instead of just saying whats good. Of course it should be constructive. But you don't tell someone that their lighting and tones were good without telling them the picture looks bad because its blurry. My assumption when I get comments about whats wrong with my photo or even better not whats wrong but how it can be improved...is that the person likes everything else, and they are telling me how i can make it better. |
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05/19/2006 02:02:08 PM · #172 |
Yeah, there's room on both sides of that one.
On one hand, the role of the photographer is to take a picture to suit a challenge. That's pretty important. Photography without a purpose is... well, pointless. We all have our reasons for taking pictures and we all have reasons that may change.
Challenges give us a purpose.
If we move on to professional photography later on, it's a pretty damned sure bet that if the assignment asks for a picture of a blonde on a beach and we submit a macro of a butterfly with a drop of water, we are pretty much not going to be doing things 'the right way'.
Challenges are good for helping us to shoot within boundaries.
If you see a guy riding a bicycle along a flat road, he might be good or he might be bad. Put a 2x4 in front of that guy that makes a teeter-totter six feet in the air on a foot wide log bridge that's already 20 feet above the ground and you will quickly see how he performs within boundaries. Some guys who train in their backyards on 2x4's go on to become pro's. Others just ride for fun. The rider will still get hurt if they fall off, whether they are being paid to ride or not.
Not everyone will always need to ride 4 inch wide teeter totters, and not everyone will eventually need to shoot an assignment for Victoria's Secret.
Likewise, those of us who are here to improve our photography and participate in the activities that happen here benefit regardless of our future.
Therefore, we all need to respect the boundaries of the challenges because whether we are trying to learn to shoot as pro's or trying to learn to take pictures so we can do a nice job when our sister gets married some day, we will still need to learn to do what we are trying to do well or we won't be able to pull it off.
STDavidson seems to be commenting though from the other perspective; that of someone providing direction and assistance.
To provide a comment that the picture doesn't quite match the topic is still appropriate here. As is a low vote.
I think that his point though is that a person that does have the insight to be able to present their feeling or opinion that the pic is DNMC, should also be able to present some reasons and something with more substance with the PURPOSE of helping the photographer to improve and grow.
Is that more important? You bet.
I took a shot for Literary Adventure that used the meaning of "Literary Adventure" as the topic for the picture. I didn't use the challenge description. I got some pretty low votes. Bear_music took the time to explain to me (in a forum thread if I recall correctly) that it was DNMC and HOW it was DNMC.
It helped adjust my perception towards challenges and hopefully I will apply this later in a way that will improve my photography. Not just my submissions.
He also made some photography specific comments about the picture itself that were even more helpful as that was what I had actually submitted the pic for (the score was irrelevant as the shot was done for a notebook cover for personal use).
Which aspect of these comments were more important?
Should be pretty obvious at this point.
And I think that was STDavidson's point too. |
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05/19/2006 02:12:19 PM · #173 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by chaimelle:
When I make a comment I am giving my opinion. ... Meeting the challenge is very important to me and DNMC usually results in a 1-3 vote, so low votes do not always mean a "bad" photo. |
You said earlier,"I have been commenting less recently because so many people seem to resent the comments"
I suggest you do not comment, as you have stated here, when you vote an image 1-3 because you felt it did not meet the challenge.
There is nothing wrong with your view, it is how you feel. But don't ever expect a photographer to react well to it and making such a comment will do little to improve their photography. Might be best if you did not comment at all under those conditions. |
From your replies I assume you are totally happy with your work and do not need comments (especially from those who would find fault). It is most unfortunate that I cannot tell which are your entries so as to avoid commenting on them. |
I think you are missing my point. My point is that comments on failure to meet the challenge rarely, if ever, contribute to helping a photographer improve.
I will illustrate it with this example:
Chaimelle's comment on it:
"This could have been taken at night, it could also have been taken at noon. It's not a bad shot, but I don't feel it meets the spirit of the challenge."
I will say this once again, there is nothing wrong with your opinion. Your opinion is as valid as anyone else's.
My issue:
How do DNMC comments like this help the photographer to improve their craft?
There are any number of substantive areas you could have commented about... like composition, framing, image color cast, focus and/or the thick white border. You could have made suggestions to improve the photograph. That would have been more useful to the photographer.
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05/19/2006 02:14:40 PM · #174 |
| Eschelar - that makes alot more sense. Giving a photog ways to improve his photography is pretty good, but here's a question..how do you tell a photographer on how to improve his/her photography if you don't know what his/her goal was? |
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05/19/2006 02:20:26 PM · #175 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
How do DNMC comments like this help the photographer to improve their craft? |
Photography is an art as well as a craft. And understanding how well you meet a challenge is part of the art. Therefore her comment was completely relevant and helpful. And if even one photographer thinks so, then she has a reason to risk making that comment.
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