| Author | Thread |
|
|
01/19/2007 01:34:25 PM · #201 |
Originally posted by Azrifel:
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Azrifel:
Is the SC aware that these rules discriminate against users of the Sigma SD-9 and SD-10 dSLR's? These camera's shoot only RAW, X3F files to be precisely, which have to be run trough a raw converter.
In total there are only 49 owners, but when they don't have a small extra camera they are unable to enter nonetheless.
Only the new SD-14 will have in-camera jpeg.
There might be some issues for digital back and medium format users too, but I am unsure if these record EXIF anyway. |
and it discriminates against those who only have film cameras too. Dang SC, always trying to stop people entering. |
DPC has never been for film. It is a valid argument an you know it. |
Tons of things here discriminate against folks who don't have Photoshop. Who cares? These users are just as welcome to buy a new camera for these challenges as I am to buy PS so that I can have healing brush and fade effect.
Sounds rude, but your logic is no reason to throw out an otherwise perfectly legitimate ruleset. What are you trying to do, prove that Basic is as restrictive as we should have?
Until we all use exactly the same camera and the same software, the field will never be level. It's part of the game. Relax and stop trying to find a dang loophole. |
|
|
|
01/19/2007 01:34:40 PM · #202 |
I think these rules are a great idea. I know I'm capable of taking a shot, resizing, clicking on "Sharpen" (if I want), and submitting.
I often get the feeling that my PP screws up my entries more than anything, I just feel compelled to do it.
:-)
|
|
|
|
01/19/2007 01:35:43 PM · #203 |
I'm really quite amazed about how such a simple concept as "take a shot and stick it into the challenge without really editing it" has been made so complicated.
Can people not see the spirit of these rules? Asking about whether this filter is legal or that option is allowed really is missing the point in my opinion. |
|
|
|
01/19/2007 01:37:39 PM · #204 |
Originally posted by nards656:
Until we all use exactly the same camera and the same software, the field will never be level. |
and live in the same countries, with the access to the same models and same lighting equipment and same large format printers to create backgrounds and then urm, what would be left to complain about but lack of skill, imagination & talent ?
|
|
|
|
01/19/2007 01:39:59 PM · #205 |
Originally posted by nards656:
Until we all use exactly the same camera and the same software, the field will never be level. It's part of the game. Relax and stop trying to find a dang loophole. |
Hey, D&L should get some sort of sponsorship Nikon and Adobe and include those as part of our membership :-)
A DPC branded Coolpix ... woo hoo
|
|
|
|
01/19/2007 02:01:24 PM · #206 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by nards656:
Until we all use exactly the same camera and the same software, the field will never be level. |
and live in the same countries, with the access to the same models and same lighting equipment and same large format printers to create backgrounds and then urm, what would be left to complain about but lack of skill, imagination & talent ? |
...and how boring would it be to vote in a challenge then? Yawn! |
|
|
|
01/19/2007 02:02:22 PM · #207 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Right now it is just an argument, valid or not. |
True. I am not trying to get these rules away or force RAW in, I am just asking if it has been taken into consideration. When I drove home from the supermarket a couple of minutes ago I also thought that 'discriminates against' was not the right Dutch/Anglo translation of my thoughts. "excludes" would have been better.
|
|
|
|
01/19/2007 02:04:32 PM · #208 |
Originally posted by mist:
I'm really quite amazed about how such a simple concept as "take a shot and stick it into the challenge without really editing it" has been made so complicated.
Can people not see the spirit of these rules? Asking about whether this filter is legal or that option is allowed really is missing the point in my opinion. |
Expert editing: People complain as it's too much.
Minimal editing: People complain as it's not enough.
LMAO people just need something to bitch about even when there is no reason too. I guess it is just human nature to pick the pepper out of the fly poop!
Message edited by author 2007-01-19 14:05:41. |
|
|
|
01/19/2007 02:04:45 PM · #209 |
Langdon:
Here's a suggestion: collect all of the Q&A that's occurred so far and post it in a growing list in the first post, with regular reminders throughout the thread to go look there.
Here are the ones I can remember so far:
1) Sharpening. Only use tools without any modifiers available. For example, in PS CS2, you may use "sharpen" or "sharpen edges" but not unsharp mask or smart sharpening. You may sharpen as many times as you like. (It's unclear to me whether resizing using "bicubic sharper" is allowed, so please clarify).
2) In-camera editing: You can use any feature to take the photo, but once it's captured, editing is limited to the same rules whether done in the camera or on a computer. (And I'd still strongly recommend adding a line about this to the rules)
3) Cropping: Not allowed
4) Rotating: only 90, 180, or 270 degrees. No correcting slightly tilted horizons.
5) Multiple exposures in-camera: No clear answer yet; SC, D&L, please decide and add something to the rules. For the first challenge, I urge you to allow it because that's been the general understanding.
6) Desaturation: only allowed using a preset command without using any options that allow a slider. "Desaturate" is allowed, but not a channel mixer.
Finally, I think it would be good for you to post your intentions. For example, do you refuse to make any changes until after at least one challenge? Or are you willing to change it based on discussion in this thread? Just let us know what you're thinking.
Thanks again!
|
|
|
|
01/19/2007 02:05:44 PM · #210 |
I think this is a great challenge. All challenges are great, if it suits you. No need to enter if you don't want to.
My problem is, I can only point a finger at the moment, unless my camera arrives in time. |
|
|
|
01/19/2007 02:05:45 PM · #211 |
Originally posted by Azrifel:
Originally posted by Melethia:
Originally posted by kearock:
(I shoot in RAW and don't like to use the +JPEG (seems like a waste of memory card space when I can easily generate preview JPEGS on my computer)). |
Just add the small jpeg - it's plenty big for challenge photos and really doesn't take that much space. |
The small jpeg of the D70 sucks. |
And my main point was that I don't want to have to remember to change modes to shoot for a challenge. I'm not going to shoot in RAW + JPEG on a regular basis. It just seems silly to not allow unadjusted RAW files. They're about as straight from the camera as you can get. A RAW file is the digital equivalent of a film negative. |
|
|
|
01/19/2007 02:08:26 PM · #212 |
Originally posted by silverscreen:
...and how boring would it be to vote in a challenge then? Yawn! |
actually, I think it would be pretty eye-opening.
|
|
|
|
01/19/2007 02:08:52 PM · #213 |
Originally posted by kearock:
It just seems silly to not allow unadjusted RAW files. They're about as straight from the camera as you can get. A RAW file is the digital equivalent of a film negative. |
I was under the impression that a RAW file isn't actually an image at all, and to produce something you can see you have to choose various settings like exposure and white balance. Isn't that how people produce multiple images from the same RAW file? How is that not editing?
I'm genuinely confused, not trying to just argue with you; my camera doesn't do RAW, so I'm still not quite sure how it works.
|
|
|
|
01/19/2007 02:12:02 PM · #214 |
Originally posted by kearock:
It just seems silly to not allow unadjusted RAW files. |
have you ever seen an unadjusted RAW file ?
I'd be surprised if you have. Linear gamma images are not the most interesting to look at, or enter into a contest.
All the images you see in a RAW converter have had a whole host of adjustments done to them, by the 'defaults' as you happened to have them currently set for your particular RAW converter. 'unadjusted RAW' doesn't make much of any sense.
|
|
|
|
01/19/2007 02:12:35 PM · #215 |
Originally posted by kearock:
And my main point was that I don't want to have to remember to change modes to shoot for a challenge. |
Truely this is a lame argument. Do you have the same trouble remembering to change the shutter speed, or the white balance? Just click the button and be done with it. |
|
|
|
01/19/2007 02:14:01 PM · #216 |
| Way to go Langdon and the SC !!!!! I am very Pleased! |
|
|
|
01/19/2007 02:14:01 PM · #217 |
Originally posted by levyj413:
Originally posted by kearock:
It just seems silly to not allow unadjusted RAW files. They're about as straight from the camera as you can get. A RAW file is the digital equivalent of a film negative. |
I was under the impression that a RAW file isn't actually an image at all, and to produce something you can see you have to choose various settings like exposure and white balance. Isn't that how people produce multiple images from the same RAW file? How is that not editing?
I'm genuinely confused, not trying to just argue with you; my camera doesn't do RAW, so I'm still not quite sure how it works. |
When you open a RAW file it goes to a "converter" where you can make adjustments by choosing settings like those you mentioned, BUT you don't have to. The default conversion (at least the way mine is set up) is to use the settings chosen in camera (which are part of the file). |
|
|
|
01/19/2007 02:16:16 PM · #218 |
Originally posted by levyj413:
I was under the impression that a RAW file isn't actually an image at all, and to produce something you can see you have to choose various settings like exposure and white balance. Isn't that how people produce multiple images from the same RAW file? How is that not editing? |
When I load my Nikon NEF into Capture 4.4 or NX it will process the NEF to a 16 bit TIFF using the exact same settings as the camera automatically. The Basic Jpeg and the auto-processed NEF look the same. Only when I start adjusting sliders manually it will change from the basic camera capture.
When I load the NEF in Adobe ACR it makes educated guesses to process the file automatically and it will not look the same as the basic jpeg. There's a lot of difference in how these converters handle things. Rawshooter Essentials and Capture One also produce different looks compared to the original capture. Only the Nikon converters makes it look like the original jpeg. Therefore excluding raw makes a lot of sense.
Message edited by author 2007-01-19 14:17:43.
|
|
|
|
01/19/2007 02:19:42 PM · #219 |
Originally posted by mist:
Originally posted by kearock:
And my main point was that I don't want to have to remember to change modes to shoot for a challenge. |
Truely this is a lame argument. Do you have the same trouble remembering to change the shutter speed, or the white balance? Just click the button and be done with it. |
Of course I don't have trouble remembering to change the settings that produce my image. However, the settings for the recorded file, I would easily forget. I ALWAYS shoot in full size RAW. It's a setting I would never change (except, apparently, for this rule set). When I'm shooting I want to be concerned with the image I'm producing. I don't want to have to be thinking "oh, I'm shooting this for DPC, better change to RAW+JPEG". Even worse, if I were travelling and came back to find that a challenge had been announced for which I had shot something that fit the topic perfectly, but I couldn't enter because I shoot in RAW, I'd be pretty bummed. |
|
|
|
01/19/2007 02:22:24 PM · #220 |
Originally posted by Azrifel:
Originally posted by levyj413:
I was under the impression that a RAW file isn't actually an image at all, and to produce something you can see you have to choose various settings like exposure and white balance. Isn't that how people produce multiple images from the same RAW file? How is that not editing? |
When I load my Nikon NEF into Capture 4.4 or NX it will process the NEF to a 16 bit TIFF using the exact same settings as the camera automatically. The Basic Jpeg and the auto-processed NEF look the same. Only when I start adjusting sliders manually it will change from the basic camera capture.
When I load the NEF in Adobe ACR it makes educated guesses to process the file automatically and it will not look the same as the basic jpeg. There's a lot of difference in how these converters handle things. Rawshooter Essentials and Capture One also produce different looks compared to the original capture. Only the Nikon converters makes it look like the original jpeg. Therefore excluding raw makes a lot of sense. |
Why does excluding RAW make a lot of sense because of this? All this means is that the photographer would need to be responsible for converting in a way that doesn't change the image. (and Adobe Camera RAW can use the camera settings, you just have to tell it not to make autocorrections) |
|
|
|
01/19/2007 02:28:36 PM · #221 |
| Azrifel, I thought you said this doesn't interest you and you aren't going to enter or vote.... If that's the case, I'm not sure what your points are here. Not being argumentative - just wondering! |
|
|
|
01/19/2007 02:29:34 PM · #222 |
Originally posted by kearock:
Why does excluding RAW make a lot of sense because of this? All this means is that the photographer would need to be responsible for converting in a way that doesn't change the image. (and Adobe Camera RAW can use the camera settings, you just have to tell it not to make autocorrections) |
Because every RAW converter uses different algorithms and results in slightly different images, even if they use the 'in camera' settings ?
So we could try out the 10 or so different RAW converters out there until we liked the results more and it would be a more complicated than it should be mess to administer ?
Or because its simpler to just say 'JPG' only and have people set their cameras properly in the first place (which isn't a terrible discipline to get into anyway)
Message edited by author 2007-01-19 14:30:38.
|
|
|
|
01/19/2007 03:01:30 PM · #223 |
Originally posted by kearock:
Why does excluding RAW make a lot of sense because of this? All this means is that the photographer would need to be responsible for converting in a way that doesn't change the image. (and Adobe Camera RAW can use the camera settings, you just have to tell it not to make autocorrections) |
I have made a comparisson between Adobe ACR, Capture 4.4, Capture NX, CaptureOne Pro 3 and Rawshooter Essentials. None of these match the original jpeg and all are different, sometimes significantly. There is no converter that matches the camera's jpeg, there is no converter that does not change the image.
Clickable image leads to 1400x400 px 200kb file at my pbase gallery:
(All converter setting set to off, zero, etc where possible)
Message edited by author 2007-01-19 15:10:06.
|
|
|
|
01/19/2007 03:01:49 PM · #224 |
| These rules sound good to me. People should learn to use their cameras w/o having to lean on the crutch of PS. Its amazing how much people whine about such a straightforward rule set. |
|
|
|
01/19/2007 03:06:35 PM · #225 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Azrifel, I thought you said this doesn't interest you and you aren't going to enter or vote.... If that's the case, I'm not sure what your points are here. Not being argumentative - just wondering! |
I have decided that I will enter anyway. My first reaction was "oh no", but I am turning around. That is my character, not always that happy with that. Need to give it a chance, why not, migth surprise me.
And the point about the Sigma's is that I know the technicalities of a lot of stuff so I remembered their incapability to shoot jpeg. This discussion is titled "Minimal Editing Discussion" and that is exactly what I am doing.
|
|
Home -
Challenges -
Community -
League -
Photos -
Cameras -
Lenses -
Learn -
Help -
Terms of Use -
Privacy -
Top ^
DPChallenge, and website content and design, Copyright © 2001-2025 Challenging Technologies, LLC.
All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission.
Current Server Time: 03/12/2025 11:04:45 AM EDT.
