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09/24/2007 03:13:05 AM · #276 |
Originally posted by parallax:
Brear you 're right, but sometimes titles are guiding voters to see something is just not there. |
Sure, but that's a risk we have to take. Voters are pretty good at ferreting out bogus shoehorn titles anyway: I know 'cuz I have done a whole BUNCH of 'em... :-)
R.
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09/24/2007 04:20:33 AM · #277 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by zxaar:
actually the dnmc check box is needed because of comment part. If you score it low and then comment, it very likely you will get a pm protesting it. |
So, tell me just exactly how having the photographer express their response to your opinion hurts you?
If it is rude to the point of violating the site's TOS, then report the PM, and we will evaluate the situation and take whatever action is necessary. But otherwise, what harm comes from someone disagreeing with your opinion? In the old days, they use to say don't dish it out if you can't take it. |
no it does not hurt me. and i do not know how you assumed that my post is only relevant to me only. I was talking about people in general.
you already know that many people have left this site saying that people are rude when others were just expressing their opinion.
there are few threads about people sending others pms about the comments they have received.
Why I (personally) want to avoid this scenario, is I do not have much time to be communicating (justifying to) with others just because I made sin of commenting on their picture. I just do not want to do it. If someone is free enough he can always do it. I am not free that much. I am sorry I want the dnmc checkbox thingy so that I could wrap up in just one click. |
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09/24/2007 07:37:19 AM · #278 |
Originally posted by sher:
Like several who have already posted, I still can't see the benefit of having DNMC button. This is an international site with many different cultures and backgrounds. Unless you are aware of every single way that an image can possibly meet a challenge, how can you know if it doesn't? |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
The point is, people DO vote that way, unaware of cultural differences that impact the topicality of many entries. So some very decent images that are in fact right on topic fall by the wayside with lower scores than they might actually "deserve". And many times there's no real indication of why the score is low, because DNMCs in the comments box are not that common unless an image is apparently wildly off-topic. Like my "Self Portrait" as a raindrop, for example, had a ton of them.
So since people ARE in the practice of voting down images they think are DNMC, and relatively few people leave DNMC comments, the end result is unhappy entrants who don't really know why their scores did not meet their expectations.
The proposed radio button is a painless way to provide this very useful information at little or no cost in either effort on the voters' part or developmental complexity on DPC's part.
R. |
I'm with Robert on this, and to state it subjectively, I would like the checkbox because I could use it as a tool to gauge whether or not my attempt at meeting the challenge corresponds with the voters.
I see it as a useful and constructive tool, and would like to see it expressed as such in the event that it would be instituted on a trial basis. Since DNMC is purely subjective, I think it would be a terrific barometer as to what the voters think of the expression of the details concept in a challenge.
I don't think it should have anything to do at all with the score an image gets; I see it as merely an indication of the "Get it" factor, and whether you were able to express your original intent.
The anonymity part of it would lead me to believe that there would be more voters inclined to honestly indicate that a shot is a DNMC candidate without fear of reprisal.
Like it or not, if you leave a DNMC comment, you have a likelihood of getting a scathing PM from it......that possibility is a limiting factor, IMO.
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09/24/2007 08:23:24 AM · #279 |
FWIW, I think this was one of the most intelligent takes on the topic of Closing and not solely for the sake of it's title AND one of the most clever images to grace the front page in a while. |
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09/24/2007 08:25:20 AM · #280 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
The anonymity part of it would lead me to believe that there would be more voters inclined to honestly indicate that a shot is a DNMC candidate without fear of reprisal. |
Well, if the handful of people interested in this checkbox succeed in getting it implemented I can't wait to see the results in the score threads. Especially if it's real time while the challenge is in the voting stage.
In addition to "man, some troll just dropped a 1 on me", we'll see some "man, people here are whacked. I just got two DNMC checks, and my score went up!".
May also see a ramping up of MORE politicing for various perspectives/definitions while the challenge is active "I can't believe I got hit with a DNMC check - I hope all those dang cliche flower shots with bugs are getting dinged too - they certainly don't fit the challenge IMO".
Just wait - push this thing thru and it's going to be UNREAL. Bring on the popcorn and enjoy the show! :)
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Like it or not, if you leave a DNMC comment, you have a likelihood of getting a scathing PM from it......that possibility is a limiting factor, IMO. |
I still don't understand the wimpiness in getting "scathing" PM's. Why worry about it? Have fun, ignore the PM, let the sender stew some, and while you're at it, ding there score a little more. :P |
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09/24/2007 08:41:09 AM · #281 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
I still don't understand the wimpiness in getting "scathing" PM's. Why worry about it? Have fun, ignore the PM, let the sender stew some, and while you're at it, ding there score a little more. :P |
What may seem wimpy to you, is in fact, mortifying to some people.
I know quite a few very strong, outgoing people who are so non-confrontational that they will inconvenience themselves to avoid conflict.
Some people will seriously sell themselves short to avoid it.
Some also just really don't want to hear it for expressing their opinion, and leaving a DNMC, although subjective, doesn't always get seen that way.
I know from personal experience that DNMC does not reflect anything but a voter's opinions, but you can bet that I had an opinion when I got DNMCs for an entry that had the challenge description N/A.
But it also reflected the ideas that those voters had just relative to the title of the challenge, didn't it?
That's how I see this idea......as a way to garner more info to put it to use to do better in my expression of a theme.
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09/24/2007 09:40:48 AM · #282 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
The anonymity part of it would lead me to believe that there would be more voters inclined to honestly indicate that a shot is a DNMC candidate without fear of reprisal. |
Well, if the handful of people interested in this checkbox succeed in getting it implemented I can't wait to see the results in the score threads. Especially if it's real time while the challenge is in the voting stage.
In addition to "man, some troll just dropped a 1 on me", we'll see some "man, people here are whacked. I just got two DNMC checks, and my score went up!".
May also see a ramping up of MORE politicing for various perspectives/definitions while the challenge is active "I can't believe I got hit with a DNMC check - I hope all those dang cliche flower shots with bugs are getting dinged too - they certainly don't fit the challenge IMO".
Just wait - push this thing thru and it's going to be UNREAL. Bring on the popcorn and enjoy the show! :)
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Change is hard to accept. Of course we will hear about this in the forums. Especially for the first three months. But getting a DNMC check is a lot like getting a 1 vote. If you have one 1 vote, it might tick you off. Once you've had a few dozen, a few hundred or whatever, it doesn't really get under the skin in quite the same way. It's still there, and you can choose to learn from it or not, but there really ain't much to say about it.
it's just as likely that someone will vote high or low with a DNMC check. that freedom is part of the idea.
Personally, I just don't understand the wimpiness in being afraid of the idea that people might get a little excited about expressing their feelings as they adjust to change. It's bound to happen regardless of what the change is. The only thing for it is to remember that the end result would be beneficial.
I can completely understand the unpleasantness of going out of your way to help someone with a picture with either small effort or large and having the help spat back in your face with uncalled for rudeness. Sure takes all the joy out of trying to be cooperative. |
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09/24/2007 10:05:38 AM · #283 |
Originally posted by eschelar:
Personally, I just don't understand the wimpiness in being afraid of the idea that people might get a little excited about expressing their feelings ... |
This whole idea is about people being afraid of people expressing their feelings -- about your comment. Seems like people want the opportunity to criticize, without their criticism being subject to any criticism or rebuttal. I can just see all the threads which go "To all you chicken-s*** idiots who checked the DNMC box, well, this is how my photo "met" the challenge." Sure, I can see where being flamed in public is going to be a lot better than getting a PM which you can simply ignore.
Besides, I fail to see where even one of the proposers has actually suffered any harm from making a DNMC comment -- it all seems to be about protecting someone else's sensitive psyche from attack.
Larus' thread is the only one I can recall lately about a problem with responses, and as it turns out, he sent as about many "rude comment responses" as he received.
Honestly, if you think that -- in your opinion -- a photo doesn't meet the challenge well, then say so. To want say so without being willing to have your opinion challenged -- that seems the very definition of wimpiness to me. |
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09/24/2007 10:10:04 AM · #284 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by eschelar:
Personally, I just don't understand the wimpiness in being afraid of the idea that people might get a little excited about expressing their feelings ... |
This whole idea is about people being afraid of people expressing their feelings -- about your comment. Seems like people want the opportunity to criticize, without their criticism being subject to any criticism or rebuttal. I can just see all the threads which go "To all you chicken-s*** idiots who checked the DNMC box, well, this is how my photo "met" the challenge." Sure, I can see where being flamed in public is going to be a lot better than getting a PM which you can simply ignore.
Besides, I fail to see where even one of the proposers has actually suffered any harm from making a DNMC comment -- it all seems to be about protecting someone else's sensitive psyche from attack.
Larus' thread is the only one I can recall lately about a problem with responses, and as it turns out, he sent as about many "rude comment responses" as he received.
Honestly, if you think that -- in your opinion -- a photo doesn't meet the challenge well, then say so. To want say so without being willing to have your opinion challenged -- that seems the very definition of wimpiness to me. |
Hear hear. |
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09/24/2007 10:16:09 AM · #285 |
Originally posted by doctornick:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by eschelar:
Personally, I just don't understand the wimpiness in being afraid of the idea that people might get a little excited about expressing their feelings ... |
This whole idea is about people being afraid of people expressing their feelings -- about your comment. Seems like people want the opportunity to criticize, without their criticism being subject to any criticism or rebuttal. I can just see all the threads which go "To all you chicken-s*** idiots who checked the DNMC box, well, this is how my photo "met" the challenge." Sure, I can see where being flamed in public is going to be a lot better than getting a PM which you can simply ignore.
Besides, I fail to see where even one of the proposers has actually suffered any harm from making a DNMC comment -- it all seems to be about protecting someone else's sensitive psyche from attack.
Larus' thread is the only one I can recall lately about a problem with responses, and as it turns out, he sent as about many "rude comment responses" as he received.
Honestly, if you think that -- in your opinion -- a photo doesn't meet the challenge well, then say so. To want say so without being willing to have your opinion challenged -- that seems the very definition of wimpiness to me. |
Hear hear. |
Can I agree anonymously please? |
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09/24/2007 11:24:50 AM · #286 |
I think the issue is also greater than a Voter ---> Photographer mutual understanding. It's about education and the entire community psyche.
I'm usually more concerned when the site on the whole or in general find what I consider a Mega-DNMC to be passable. People seemed to get the Challenge Details or "essence" stunnned out of their concious by a pretty image.
I fear that I will get jumped if I parade about an image that I feel is a complete DNMC...and not by a narrow definition and YES the do exist.
I have a DPC Favorite....a well loved image....a GREAT image but a whopper of a DNMC and a Blue Ribbon winner that I would love to discuss but know I'll get lumped up if I dare mention it. Should I....??? |
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09/24/2007 11:25:55 AM · #287 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Well, if the handful of people interested in this checkbox succeed in getting it implemented I can't wait to see the results in the score threads. Especially if it's real time while the challenge is in the voting stage.
In addition to "man, some troll just dropped a 1 on me", we'll see some "man, people here are whacked. I just got two DNMC checks, and my score went up!".
May also see a ramping up of MORE politicing for various perspectives/definitions while the challenge is active "I can't believe I got hit with a DNMC check - I hope all those dang cliche flower shots with bugs are getting dinged too - they certainly don't fit the challenge IMO".
Just wait - push this thing thru and it's going to be UNREAL. Bring on the popcorn and enjoy the show! :) |
Here's a fine example ==> Still My LIfe & I'll Move If I Want To - Scores. Nobody is outright stating DNMC, but seriously hinting about it - trying to make their personal definition or interpretation of the challenge the one of choice.
Now - If some of those same people had a couple of DNMC checks already how much do you think the tone of that "score" thread would be changed? Substantially IMO, and not for the better. |
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09/24/2007 12:04:18 PM · #288 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
I have a DPC Favorite....a well loved image....a GREAT image but a whopper of a DNMC and a Blue Ribbon winner that I would love to discuss but know I'll get lumped up if I dare mention it. Should I....??? |
Send me a link in a PM and I will be glad to (politely) discuss why or why not that picture meets the challenge topic. It seems to me that the discussion of various viewpoints is what "education" is all about, and the ultimate goal of this site is for people to learn from each other. |
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09/24/2007 12:58:54 PM · #289 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
I have a DPC Favorite....a well loved image....a GREAT image but a whopper of a DNMC and a Blue Ribbon winner that I would love to discuss but know I'll get lumped up if I dare mention it. Should I....??? |
Just send it to me Pawdrix and I will mention it in this forum, making certain of course that I don't mention your name... Trust me, I can take the heat :O)
Edit to add: I hadn't seen the General's post.
Ray
Message edited by author 2007-09-24 13:00:59. |
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09/24/2007 02:37:35 PM · #290 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by pawdrix:
I have a DPC Favorite....a well loved image....a GREAT image but a whopper of a DNMC and a Blue Ribbon winner that I would love to discuss but know I'll get lumped up if I dare mention it. Should I....??? |
Send me a link in a PM and I will be glad to (politely) discuss why or why not that picture meets the challenge topic. It seems to me that the discussion of various viewpoints is what "education" is all about, and the ultimate goal of this site is for people to learn from each other. |
Gen-I PMed both you an Ray.
As I stated in the letter, I think the DNMCers that make it into the Top 10 or Top 20 are what get peoples hair up.
I actually don't care about the image itself but moreso when the voters collectively ignore/forget the Challenge description or breeze by them for the sake of a pretty image. For me a radio button would only serve as a little stick in the eye to the photographer but would probably miss the greater problem, as I see it.
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09/24/2007 03:04:33 PM · #291 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Gen-I PMed both you an Ray. |
Come on Steve - why not post it for all to see?
Whether or not something is DNMC is entirely subjective.
There is simply no need to make the challenges more theme-focussed than they already are. Even if there are examples (like that Hummingbird macro shot that was a shoehorned image if I ever saw one), it is hardly a widespread problem or one that interferes with proper site operation.
This thread seems to be searching for a solution to a non-existent "problem".
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09/24/2007 03:13:51 PM · #292 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Gen-I PMed both you an Ray. |
Come on Steve - why not post it for all to see?
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...because I'm chicken? |
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09/24/2007 03:38:45 PM · #293 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Gen-I PMed both you an Ray. |
Originally posted by Matthew:
Come on Steve - why not post it for all to see?
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Originally posted by pawdrix:
...because I'm chicken? |
Or maybe you don't feel like getting a heapin' helpin' o' sh*t for bringing up a topic to discuss it.
Message edited by author 2007-09-24 15:39:48.
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09/24/2007 06:18:35 PM · #294 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Honestly, if you think that -- in your opinion -- a photo doesn't meet the challenge well, then say so. |
yes we want to say so and we want to say it by awarding 1s to all the photos those do not meet the challenge (in our opinion). Just remove the vote scrubber part.
On the one hand it been told vote as you like on other other hand you say if you give lots of 1s your vote won't be counted.
Message edited by author 2007-09-24 18:18:59. |
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09/24/2007 06:28:55 PM · #295 |
Originally posted by zxaar:
On the one hand it been told vote as you like on other other hand you say if you give lots of 1s your vote won't be counted. |
This is a good observation; however, it presupposes that the person handing out the 1's like candy for not meeting the challenge has a reasonable interpretation of the challenge description.
If voters look at the pool of images in a challenge and bemoan and bewail that most of them don't meet their definition of the challenge, perhaps it is the voters that need to make an adjustment in their interpretation, and not the submitters.
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09/24/2007 06:36:34 PM · #296 |
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by zxaar:
On the one hand it been told vote as you like on other other hand you say if you give lots of 1s your vote won't be counted. |
This is a good observation; however, it presupposes that the person handing out the 1's like candy for not meeting the challenge has a reasonable interpretation of the challenge description.
If voters look at the pool of images in a challenge and bemoan and bewail that most of them don't meet their definition of the challenge, perhaps it is the voters that need to make an adjustment in their interpretation, and not the submitters. |
You see, how an user votes , he/she should not have to justify it. Meaning lets say I am complete dumb but since I have member account I could vote on a challenge. Now if I wish to give a photo 10 for no reason or I give 1 to a photo for no reason, I could chose to do it. I do not have to justify it. If I vote it should be counted this is what I want to say.
Give you another example, lets say I only vote on the photos I feel are dnmc and give them all 1s. And I chose not to vote on anything else. My vote would not be counted, but my vote should be legit. Isn't it.
The issue is not voting. The issue here is if we start telling people bluntly that their photo is dnmc. In the long run we will all be arguing with each other. DPC is much more friendlier site than many others (example dpreview), and I wish it to stay like this. In fact this is what I like about dpc. If the environment gets spoiled, many people would leave this place (at least I would do).
Further this feature of check box could be provided for the people who want it. And if someone do not want it, put it in preference so that he could hide it. It may be little difficult to implement but it is win win. |
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09/24/2007 11:04:44 PM · #297 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Here's a fine example ==> Still My LIfe & I'll Move If I Want To - Scores. Nobody is outright stating DNMC, but seriously hinting about it - trying to make their personal definition or interpretation of the challenge the one of choice.
Now - If some of those same people had a couple of DNMC checks already how much do you think the tone of that "score" thread would be changed? Substantially IMO, and not for the better. |
Why would it be changed at all if the photographers kept the DNMC tally private? If they revealed the DNMC tally, then any squabbling would surely be their own doing. On the other hand, what if those who took the pics that were apparently 'DNMC' had 50 or more DNMC checks? Perhaps they might have behaved differently. |
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09/24/2007 11:19:20 PM · #298 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by eschelar:
Personally, I just don't understand the wimpiness in being afraid of the idea that people might get a little excited about expressing their feelings ... |
This whole idea is about people being afraid of people expressing their feelings -- about your comment. Seems like people want the opportunity to criticize, without their criticism being subject to any criticism or rebuttal. I can just see all the threads which go "To all you chicken-s*** idiots who checked the DNMC box, well, this is how my photo "met" the challenge." Sure, I can see where being flamed in public is going to be a lot better than getting a PM which you can simply ignore.
Besides, I fail to see where even one of the proposers has actually suffered any harm from making a DNMC comment -- it all seems to be about protecting someone else's sensitive psyche from attack.
Larus' thread is the only one I can recall lately about a problem with responses, and as it turns out, he sent as about many "rude comment responses" as he received.
Honestly, if you think that -- in your opinion -- a photo doesn't meet the challenge well, then say so. To want say so without being willing to have your opinion challenged -- that seems the very definition of wimpiness to me. |
It strikes me that 'flame' threads are not generally tolerated and are quickly moved to rant. This may even be a TOS issue. On the other hand, let's not assume that everyone is going to respond with a flame. Some might start a thread saying "wow, I got a lot of DNMC checks with this one. Here's how I thought it Met the Challenge" or they might simply use their image description box for this for those browsing after the challenge - pretty fair considering that this is also when scores are handed out... indeed this is already what happens to a large extent. If you get a score that you don't understand, post it in the forums and people will help you understand it.
After a few inevitable 'strong' reactions, it would be understood that flame threads are not taken well by users and SC (don't most people already know this?) and I think that the primary use of the DNMC check box would become more educational.
Originally posted by generalE:
Besides, I fail to see where even one of the proposers has actually suffered any harm from making a DNMC comment -- it all seems to be about protecting someone else's sensitive psyche from attack.
Honestly, if you think that -- in your opinion -- a photo doesn't meet the challenge well, then say so. To want say so without being willing to have your opinion challenged -- that seems the very definition of wimpiness to me. |
Sticks and Stones may break my bones.... of course nobody has suffered any harm from making a DNMC comment. I mentioned that I have received a number of negative PM's and not exclusively about DNMC. People in general here tend to have thinner skins than they ought to and react quite strongly to things that have no hurtful intent. But those responses do take their toll after a while. It DOES reduce the enjoyment of the site. I don't have a lot of time to vote right now, but I still try to keep my commenting active (being as I feel that a thoughtful comment is more important than a score), but thin skinned responses do affect the way I comment.
but that isn't really my point is it? I'm not trying to protect a specific someone else, I'm trying to offer a suggestion that might, perhaps even probably, will help reduce or at the very least, shift some of the negative feeling that is currently building up.
FWIW, I'd rather see a flame thread in the public eye rather than a flamed PM. For exactly the same reason of 'wimpiness' that was brought up earlier. |
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09/24/2007 11:24:32 PM · #299 |
Originally posted by eschelar:
.... On the other hand, what if those who took the pics that were apparently 'DNMC' had 50 or more DNMC checks? Perhaps they might have behaved differently. |
There is absolutely no tangible manner by which this could be ascertained, since it is quite conceivable that there could be 50 people in this site that completely misunderstood the rapport between the image and the challenge.
Similarly, the modification in behaviour would occur post challenge and it is quite conceivable that in our haste to ensure conformity we will have significantly stifled creativity.
Yes it is true that there are some images that severely stretch the interpretation of the challenge topic, and there are occasions where some of the ribbon winners seemingly flaunted the guidelines, but in the grand scheme of things we truly must remember that we are vying for nothing more than a virtual ribbon.
I am certainly not against this box some seek, but would hasten to impress upon people that it is NOT the panacea to this perceived problem.
Ray |
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09/24/2007 11:32:13 PM · #300 |
Ray, I'm merely saying that perhaps they wouldn't complain so loudly if they realized that so many people didn't understand their vision based on what was presented in the photo itself. On the other hand, maybe they don't care.
I submitted an image a long time ago that was MC for the title, but DNMC for the challenge description. If I had 3 DNMC check boxes, I'd have learned something. If I had 50, I'd have learned something. If I had 150, I'd have learned something.
If I had only three DNMC check boxes, I would have asked for more clarification (which I actually did in the forums). If I had more, I would have realized that people were not looking at the title of the challenge only.
I don't think it will necessarily stifle creativity. People already understand that if they shoot something OOB, they will likely take the hit in their score. This is part of the photographer's choice. And many people continue to submit what they want irrespective of what they feel the score will be. That would not change.
I will agree though that my suggestion is not a panacea. I just think that it will help in many respects. |
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