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 11/30/2007 01:20:31 PM · #176
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by RonB:
Catholic, the adjective ( Of or involving the Roman Catholic Church ) is not a synonym for Christian, the adjective (Professing belief in Jesus as Christ)... And, fwiw, belief alone IS enough.


So you object to the notion that Catholics believe in Jesus as Christ? I'm pretty sure Catholics would disagree (and that alone is a pretty decent example of intolerance/bias against anyone who doesn't believe exactly as you do).

Not at all. It's wonderful when Catholics believe in Jesus as Christ. It's wonderful when those from any denomination, or those from no denomination at all, believe in Jesus as Christ.
 11/30/2007 01:36:38 PM · #177
Originally posted by RonB:
You posted it as a direct rebuttal to a positive statement AGAINST harrassment by HawkeyeLonewolf by Christians


Hawkeye said that Christians have no right to abuse or harass, and I listed examples of abuse and harassment carried out in the name of, or under the authority of, Christianity- many carried out by people pointing to their biblical obligation or right to do so. That is quite in line with the OP, however I will concede that subsequent reactions to eye-popping claims that Catholics aren't Christian, the bible didn't condone slavery, or that homosexuality is merely a lifestyle choice were off topic. It's kinda hard to let wild posts like that just slide, so I apologize to jhonan for those distractions.
 11/30/2007 05:08:14 PM · #178
Actually, I think the thread started derailing around about here;

Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Confirmation is a Catholic tradition -- confirming the infant baptism -- not a Christian one


I ignored it at first, thinking it was a typo or something. But it seems that when I classified Ireland as a Christian country in my first post, I attracted the attention of the fundamentalists. The thread was more or less doomed from then on.

Not to worry, I'll let this thread die (if it ever dies!) and I'll raise my original subject again at a later date. With a more carefully worded title, and perhaps even posted in 'Personal Life'. Because in the midst of the OT posts there were some really interesting points raised and I'd like to hear more.

Besides, what do the Christians who posted here know about what it's like to be an Atheist in a Christian society?
11/30/2007 09:25:27 PM · #179
Originally posted by jhonan:
Not to worry, I'll let this thread die (if it ever dies!) and I'll raise my original subject again at a later date. With a more carefully worded title, and perhaps even posted in 'Personal Life'.

Don't do that... I have that section turned off. ;-)
 12/01/2007 06:09:37 PM · #180
Originally posted by jhonan:
Here in Ireland, a predominantly Catholic country, religion and society are inextricably intertwined. For example, getting married in a Church is a must-do (the parents, aunts and uncles all love a white wedding). And how on earth can you have a funeral without a priest?


Hi John. Throughout the world, in countries where there is a higher level of education, there is a corresponding dip in religiosity. You are living in one of the two countries that bucks the trend (the other is the US).

Have you ever thought about emigrating? ;-) England is not far to travel!

I don't know what the answer is. It may not be as bad as you think. My cousin's girlfriend is Irish Catholic and was dreading telling her father that she was seeing my atheist cousin. Then her sister got pregnant out of wedlock and survived - her father is now a doting grandfather. Her news was nothing in comparison. And in both cases people quickly adjusted.

Blood is thicker than (holy) water...
 12/01/2007 06:20:26 PM · #181
holy cow, please don't turn this into a place for gays to meet.
 12/01/2007 06:27:02 PM · #182
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
We Christians have no right to abuse or harass anyone.


Riiiiiight. Witch hunts, Inquisitions, Crusades, abortion clinic bombings, sectarian violence, sanctioned slavery, gay rights protests, sexual abuse by priests, mandatory school prayer, right down to more "benign" matters such as disapproval of an offspring's choice of spouse on the basis of religious belief alone... this is spin?


You don't understand the difference between his statement and the events you describe?
 12/01/2007 06:29:13 PM · #183
Originally posted by jhonan:
I always understood Catholicism to be a sub-set of Christianity?


Jeez Louise, don't tell the Pope that. As Christ incarnate he thinks its the only Christian religion!
 12/01/2007 06:31:27 PM · #184
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:

But regardless, my point is still valid. It's wrong in the eyes of Christians, so Christians speaking out against it should be expected and respected.


Expected, yes. Respected, no. WWJD?
 12/01/2007 06:36:24 PM · #185
Originally posted by Louis:
It is the modus operandus of every faith-based group to claim ultimate ownership of not only "The Truth", but also the lineage of the truth. They are reduced to irrelevance if they don't even give it a shot.


Your use of the word "every" above shows a bit of intolerance I believe.
The type of intolerance I find quite often in atheists.
 12/01/2007 06:37:42 PM · #186
I think everyone involved here is off icing their testicles now. It might be too late to try and participate in the argument.
 12/01/2007 06:38:46 PM · #187
Originally posted by posthumous:


So the wafer-god is better than the toast-god?


My noodley appendage god will eat your toast and wafers!
 12/01/2007 06:42:28 PM · #188
Originally posted by routerguy666:
.......off icing their testicles now.....

Does Martha Stewart know about this?
 12/01/2007 09:51:33 PM · #189
Originally posted by jhonan:
What word do Christians in the US use when they're asked their religion? Do they say 'I'm a Christian', or do they specify which church they belong to? (Like a protestant might say 'Anglican') - Because to me, the word 'Christian' is the umbrella term to describe a number of subsets.


Typically protest-ants state their denomination. Catholics simply state that they are catholics. Both use the term "christian" when referencing themselves. Protest-ants have a disdain for Catholics and eagerly try conversion of Catholics. Even reveling when it occurs. I have never heard Catholics admonish protestants as non-believers the way that protestants do to Catholics.

What gets me on this is that "catholic" meant/means universal church. Christianity from its inception was "catholic" (with a small "C"). Protestants are merely protesting catholics - thats why they are called protest-ants (with a long "O" - which got morphed into a short "o").

Your initial mention of the trials associated with the religious doctrine you feel compelled to follow - is unfortunate. I would encourage you (as a catholic to a Catholic - please note small "c" to capital "C")to seek for yourself (in a red letter edition Bible) the actual words of Christ. Read them. Digest them. Then choose.

Regarding the many others directions of this thread - well...
 12/02/2007 09:35:59 AM · #190
Originally posted by Flash:
Your initial mention of the trials associated with the religious doctrine you feel compelled to follow - is unfortunate. I would encourage you (as a catholic to a Catholic - please note small "c" to capital "C")to seek for yourself (in a red letter edition Bible) the actual words of Christ. Read them. Digest them. Then choose.

Thanks for the advice Flash. However, you might have misinterpreted my original post. My problem was not with being a Catholic, my problem was with being an Atheist in a Catholic society!
 12/02/2007 09:38:06 AM · #191
Originally posted by Matthew:
Have you ever thought about emigrating? ;-) England is not far to travel!

I emigrated *from* the UK about 16 years ago! The thing is, Catholic communities (especially Irish Catholic communities) tend to stick together no matter which country they're in.
 12/02/2007 10:23:52 AM · #192
Originally posted by David Ey:
holy cow, please don't turn this into a place for gays to meet.


???
 12/02/2007 10:26:53 AM · #193
I've always been taught that if your church believes in the trinity (God, Jesus, Holy Spirit) then you are considered Christian. My priest once told my that this is the reason why Mormons are not considered by some as "Christians," but I don't know enough about Mormonism (unfortunately) to know if that's true or not.

Edit for grammar.

Message edited by author 2007-12-02 10:27:55.
 12/02/2007 10:48:04 AM · #194
I think a lot of folks are being really unfair to Ron in here. I believe he is making a valid point; the distinction he is trying to draw is clear to me. I'm not taking a position on it, because I'm not sure if I agree with him, but folks are nit-picking him to death on semantics.

The bottom line is this: as far as mainstream "Christianity" in the Western world goes, for a long time the Holy Catholic Church was the only game in town. And that church, back in the day, was unbelievably corrupt. It was more of a temporal institution than a spiritual one. Those were the folks that gave us the inquisition, the crusades, all that good stuff. They did whatever they had to do to keep the people under their thumb.

Jesus would assuredly have been appalled by the Roman Catholic Church and what it was doing in His name. (Note that I am specifically referring to the Middle Ages here, not the modern church; that's an argument for another time.)

So anyway, along came the "Reformation", Martin Luther and the 95 theses and so forth and so on, the birth of the Protestant church. The root of the name, of course, comes from the fact that the church was born as a "protest" against the Roman Catholic Church. Martin Luther (and others) believed the Roman Catholic Church had corrupted Christianity beyond recognition. He/they believed the religion had become essentially pagan, it had strayed so far from Christ's teaching.

And this is the point that Ron is making; that in his eyes (and he's far from alone in this) the Holy Catholic Church has strayed so far from the teachings of Christ that its communicants can scarcely be called "Christian" at all.

It's a logical point, it's a valid distinction, it's up to you (as a Christian) to decide whether you agree with him or not ΓΆ€” but he doesn't deserve to be sniped at like this as if he's somehow saying something ridiculous and off-the-wall.

IMO, of course.

R.

Message edited by author 2007-12-02 10:48:31.
 12/02/2007 10:59:00 AM · #195
Originally posted by jhonan:
Originally posted by Flash:
Your initial mention of the trials associated with the religious doctrine you feel compelled to follow - is unfortunate. I would encourage you (as a catholic to a Catholic - please note small "c" to capital "C")to seek for yourself (in a red letter edition Bible) the actual words of Christ. Read them. Digest them. Then choose.

Thanks for the advice Flash. However, you might have misinterpreted my original post. My problem was not with being a Catholic, my problem was with being an Atheist in a Catholic society!


Thank you for the correction. I did mis-read your initial position. My reply however, would not have been much different. I will simply share, that for a long period I challenged nearly every reference to religion based on what I ultimately discovered was ingornance. Ignorance due to being too lazy to actually read/study/digest the words of Christ. Relying instead on what others said it said, instead of verifying personally. Lastly, once I obtained a copy of a Red Letter edition, then it became easier to pick out the qoutes attributed to Christ. Once that foundation was established, then all other verses had to (in my mind) be compatible with Christ's actual teachings. This clarified (at least for me) many mis-quoted interpretations of verses that the antis choose to make things appear inconsistent.

As an Atheist in a Catholic society, I would say that you should 1st challenge your un-belief. Having done that, and still an unbeliever, then you woe it to yourself, to stand firm and acclaim your un-belief for all to hear. God after all gave you a choice. You should shout yours from the mountain tops.
 12/02/2007 11:13:22 AM · #196
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I think a lot of folks are being really unfair to Ron in here. I believe he is making a valid point; the distinction he is trying to draw is clear to me. I'm not taking a position on it, because I'm not sure if I agree with him, but folks are nit-picking him to death on semantics.

The bottom line is this: as far as mainstream "Christianity" in the Western world goes, for a long time the Holy Catholic Church was the only game in town. And that church, back in the day, was unbelievably corrupt. It was more of a temporal institution than a spiritual one. Those were the folks that gave us the inquisition, the crusades, all that good stuff. They did whatever they had to do to keep the people under their thumb.

Jesus would assuredly have been appalled by the Roman Catholic Church and what it was doing in His name. (Note that I am specifically referring to the Middle Ages here, not the modern church; that's an argument for another time.)

So anyway, along came the "Reformation", Martin Luther and the 95 theses and so forth and so on, the birth of the Protestant church. The root of the name, of course, comes from the fact that the church was born as a "protest" against the Roman Catholic Church. Martin Luther (and others) believed the Roman Catholic Church had corrupted Christianity beyond recognition. He/they believed the religion had become essentially pagan, it had strayed so far from Christ's teaching.

And this is the point that Ron is making; that in his eyes (and he's far from alone in this) the Holy Catholic Church has strayed so far from the teachings of Christ that its communicants can scarcely be called "Christian" at all.

It's a logical point, it's a valid distinction, it's up to you (as a Christian) to decide whether you agree with him or not ΓΆ€” but he doesn't deserve to be sniped at like this as if he's somehow saying something ridiculous and off-the-wall.

IMO, of course.

R.


Bear_Music,

Your postings always carry weight with me (even when directed my way). This one in particular.
12/02/2007 11:22:52 AM · #197
Exhausting.
 12/02/2007 11:34:33 AM · #198
Incidentally, perhaps the main thing the Holy Catholic Church did that Luther was protesting against was the sale of "indulgences" to raise money for the church. Basically, the Church was saying "If you pay us this sum of money, we'll forgive these sins of yours and you get to go to heaven." Luther thought this was a despicable practice, totally un-Christian.

In general, he wanted to steer the Church back to be based on Faith & Charity,

R.
 12/02/2007 11:47:46 AM · #199
Originally posted by Flash:
As an Atheist in a Catholic society, I would say that you should 1st challenge your un-belief.


I don't need to - It was critical thinking (not ignorance) which led me to 20 years of challenging every aspect of my original beliefs. I have studied the New Testament gospels in addition to the works of many philosophers and scientists.

As an item of research I will look up the Red Letter version you mentioned. But to be honest, I'm very comfortable with my current thoughts and beliefs and I'm not looking for any kind of conversion. Even more so that I reached this point off my own back, which means I can defend my position without recourse to fiction. I can't imagine myself 'see-sawing' between Theist and Atheist from here.

I think it's the believers who need to continuously assess and reevaluate their position and the imposed rules and rituals which govern their lives.
12/02/2007 01:02:50 PM · #200
Originally posted by Flash:
I will simply share, that for a long period I challenged nearly every reference to religion based on what I ultimately discovered was ingornance. Ignorance due to being too lazy to actually read/study/digest the words of Christ. Relying instead on what others said it said, instead of verifying personally. Lastly, once I obtained a copy of a Red Letter edition, then it became easier to pick out the qoutes attributed to Christ. Once that foundation was established, then all other verses had to (in my mind) be compatible with Christ's actual teachings.


It's impossible to derive Christianity from merely reading the Bible. You must see it through the lens of interpretation. There is nothing in the Bible about how to run a church, how to structure a church service. There is nothing in there about the Trinity or communion. There are only a few vague statements about what happens after you die. There is nothing in the Bible about abortion, or homosexuals in committed relationships, or Middle East foreign policy. Just about everything Christians do, including their most basic tenets and rituals, is based on interpretation of the Bible. The Bible does not lay it out. And when the Bible does lay out specific rules, these are not followed, except perhaps by Orthodox Jews For Jesus. Some Christians will tell you they don't have to follow Kosher laws because Christ is the fulfillment of the law. That is an interpretation as well. Christianity has never been based on the strict literal reading of a sacred text, if only because their sacred text is too complex for that.

This is what I learned when I went directly to the Bible, and stopped relying on what other people said it said.
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