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12/12/2007 12:29:09 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by MattO:
I personally agree with Simms to a point. The spirit of the site and the challenges has changed, even in the short 2 years I have been here. While shoehorning in a shot was always done, I feel its now being widely accepted and even voted highly. Seems we can put a flower, water drop, nude, ect. into just about every challenge and they get voted high, in the past they were usually voted down and landed somewhere in the middle and werent rewarded when they dont meet the challenge. Now its essentially a free study all the time with technically good photos with good editing ending up in the upper amount wether they meet the challenge or not.
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I think you'll find you are in a minority on this point though. Otherwise those images wouldn't be scoring high, now would they ? It seems the voters don't care either.
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12/12/2007 12:32:07 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by MattO:
...I dont however feel this is an SC concern, its a site concern where it should be mandatory that a DNMC is DQable on every challenge thats not a free study. Sticking to the spirit of the site should be important and not an afterthought.
MattO |
Can you imagine the drama around the DQ's in such subjective topics like "Heaven". Who decides whether an entry meets or doesn't meet the "Heaven" challenge for example. |
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12/12/2007 12:33:05 PM · #53 |
Did  Bear_Music get such a hard time when he entered this in Self Portrait III? ;-P
Message edited by author 2007-12-12 12:34:00.
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12/12/2007 12:33:10 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by MattO:
I personally agree with Simms to a point. The spirit of the site and the challenges has changed, even in the short 2 years I have been here. While shoehorning in a shot was always done, I feel its now being widely accepted and even voted highly. Seems we can put a flower, water drop, nude, ect. into just about every challenge and they get voted high, in the past they were usually voted down and landed somewhere in the middle and werent rewarded when they dont meet the challenge. Now its essentially a free study all the time with technically good photos with good editing ending up in the upper amount wether they meet the challenge or not.
I dont however feel this is an SC concern, its a site concern where it should be mandatory that a DNMC is DQable on every challenge thats not a free study. Sticking to the spirit of the site should be important and not an afterthought.
MattO |
I guess you and me are in a minority. I totally agree with you.
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12/12/2007 12:38:22 PM · #55 |
Look out kids, Pollyanna is about to weigh in!
I don't care why anyone else chose the picture they did as an SP. I don't care if it's them, or in the spirit of the challenge. Here's what *I* got from shooting for it. A picture of me that anyone who knows me well will instantly smile at in recognition. An image I can look back on after I've cut my hair and let the gray grow out and remember I used to look young for my age. A picture that I wouldn't mind showing up on the now-ubiquitous slideshow of the deceased's life at my funeral, and funerals are starting to be a more frequent occurrence amongst my friends these days. A picture I would never have bothered taking if there hadn't been an SP challenge, 'cuz I *hate* being in front of the camera.
And if that isn't Pollyana-ish enough, I enjoyed voting and commenting, and got some ideas for things I might like to try some day.
Nothing that anyone else did or didn't do has the slightest impact on what I got out of this challange, and I'm perfectly happy with my participation in it.
Have a nice day! :::had to add that, in the spirit of Pollyanna-ness::: |
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12/12/2007 12:42:10 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by MaryO:
Look out kids, Pollyanna is about to weigh in!
I don't care why anyone else chose the picture they did as an SP. I don't care if it's them, or in the spirit of the challenge. Here's what *I* got from shooting for it. A picture of me that anyone who knows me well will instantly smile at in recognition. An image I can look back on after I've cut my hair and let the gray grow out and remember I used to look young for my age. A picture that I wouldn't mind showing up on the now-ubiquitous slideshow of the deceased's life at my funeral, and funerals are starting to be a more frequent occurrence amongst my friends these days. A picture I would never have bothered taking if there hadn't been an SP challenge, 'cuz I *hate* being in front of the camera.
And if that isn't Pollyana-ish enough, I enjoyed voting and commenting, and got some ideas for things I might like to try some day.
Nothing that anyone else did or didn't do has the slightest impact on what I got out of this challange, and I'm perfectly happy with my participation in it.
Have a nice day! :::had to add that, in the spirit of Pollyanna-ness::: |
Well, does that sums it all? |
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12/12/2007 12:42:45 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Did Bear_Music get such a hard time when he entered this in Self Portrait III? ;-P
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Dunno, but massive breach of the spirit of the site IMO. The funny thing is how surprised he seemed that it came second to last. TO be honest I am surprised it did that well.
Message edited by author 2007-12-12 12:43:00. |
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12/12/2007 12:44:49 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by doctornick:
Originally posted by MattO:
...I dont however feel this is an SC concern, its a site concern where it should be mandatory that a DNMC is DQable on every challenge thats not a free study. Sticking to the spirit of the site should be important and not an afterthought.
MattO |
Can you imagine the drama around the DQ's in such subjective topics like "Heaven". Who decides whether an entry meets or doesn't meet the "Heaven" challenge for example. |
The same people who determine wether an edit is legal or not. A majority rules. While they may not always make a decision that we agree with, it is the system that is in place and we put our "trust" into that they will make the best decision possible with the facts in front of them.
MattO
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12/12/2007 12:47:54 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by MattO:
The same people who determine wether an edit is legal or not. A majority rules. While they may not always make a decision that we agree with, it is the system that is in place and we put our "trust" into that they will make the best decision possible with the facts in front of them. |
I'm not sure if you see the inherent irony in your statement.
The majority already rules. They vote. They apparently haven't made a decision that you agree with, but you at some point have to trust the voters to make the best decision possible with the facts in front of them ?
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12/12/2007 12:53:42 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by MattO:
The same people who determine wether an edit is legal or not. A majority rules. While they may not always make a decision that we agree with, it is the system that is in place and we put our "trust" into that they will make the best decision possible with the facts in front of them. |
I'm not sure if you see the inherent irony in your statement.
The majority already rules. They vote. They apparently haven't made a decision that you agree with, but you at some point have to trust the voters to make the best decision possible with the facts in front of them ? |
The problem is the voters are asked to vote as if the entries are valid. Ever read the voting guidelines?
"In all cases, do not let this request for disqualification affect your score for the photograph. Please vote on the photo as if the entry is legal, and let the administrators do the rest. Requests for disqualification will be reviewed by DPChallenge. If your image is disqualified, you will be sent an e-mail stating the reason why, and you will also be be notified on your home page. Your image will no longer be available for voting/commenting. "
So when they are voting they are asked to consider all entries valid until removed. If DNMC=DQ they wouldnt be there to vote.
MattO
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12/12/2007 12:56:32 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by MattO:
So when they are voting they are asked to consider all entries valid until removed. If DNMC=DQ they wouldnt be there to vote.
MattO |
# keep an open mind to other interpretations of the challenge topic.
# consider the challenge topic when voting, and adjust your score accordingly.
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12/12/2007 12:59:36 PM · #62 |
The spirit of the challenge and the DPC is to partake to the best of your ability. This, I think, includes obaying the challenge description.
I am a bit bothered that this guy submits a shot of someone else as a SP in a SP challenge. the voters cannot be blammed because the shot is good and they are unaware it is a lie.
I enter challenges the best i can keeping to the description best I can and find it annoying when people take liberties, if, this is the case here as I guess it may well be.
my 2c take is at you will. |
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12/12/2007 01:00:02 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by MaryO:
Look out kids, Pollyanna is about to weigh in!
I don't care why anyone else chose the picture they did as an SP. I don't care if it's them, or in the spirit of the challenge. Here's what *I* got from shooting for it. A picture of me that anyone who knows me well will instantly smile at in recognition. An image I can look back on after I've cut my hair and let the gray grow out and remember I used to look young for my age. A picture that I wouldn't mind showing up on the now-ubiquitous slideshow of the deceased's life at my funeral, and funerals are starting to be a more frequent occurrence amongst my friends these days. A picture I would never have bothered taking if there hadn't been an SP challenge, 'cuz I *hate* being in front of the camera.
And if that isn't Pollyana-ish enough, I enjoyed voting and commenting, and got some ideas for things I might like to try some day.
Nothing that anyone else did or didn't do has the slightest impact on what I got out of this challange, and I'm perfectly happy with my participation in it.
Have a nice day! :::had to add that, in the spirit of Pollyanna-ness::: |
Thank you, Mary, for the injection of something sensible into this conversation.
I, for one, am here to improve my photography, not to gripe about others. Every challenge operates largely on the honor system (there's no way to know who took a picture, for instance). So what? I follow the rules (as I see them), I believe most everyone does (as they see them) but I know not everyone will. However it harms me very little when people don't; far less than getting upset would. So I don't get upset, I take more pictures, I try to take better pictures, and I sleep well at night.
Edit to add: I agree with MAK that it's annoying. I just think it harms the site less than making a fuss about it does.
Message edited by author 2007-12-12 13:05:02. |
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12/12/2007 01:08:23 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by MAK:
The spirit of the challenge and the DPC is to partake to the best of your ability. This, I think, includes obaying the challenge description.
I am a bit bothered that this guy submits a shot of someone else as a SP in a SP challenge. the voters cannot be blammed because the shot is good and they are unaware it is a lie.
I enter challenges the best i can keeping to the description best I can and find it annoying when people take liberties, if, this is the case here as I guess it may well be.
my 2c take is at you will. |
We don't know yet whether he purposefully submitted the photo of someone else. Like someone else already mentioned, it could be a language barrier issue...Another point is how do you know it's not really him? How do you know that the photo in his profile is really him? |
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12/12/2007 01:09:56 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by eamurdock:
[quote=MaryO] Look out kids, Pollyanna is about to weigh in!
Thank you, Mary, for the injection of something sensible into this conversation.
I, for one, am here to improve my photography, not to gripe about others. Every challenge operates largely on the honor system (there's no way to know who took a picture, for instance). So what? I follow the rules (as I see them), I believe most everyone does (as they see them) but I know not everyone will. However it harms me very little when people don't; far less than getting upset would. So I don't get upset, I take more pictures, I try to take better pictures, and I sleep well at night. |
Well that's a perfect but a non- involving approach. its like- I can eat my bread, burp and sleep well, but i think most people here are talkng more about a value proposition and a paradigm shift than a one off instance. I think a wonderful site like this can't be treated as a waterbody where all kinda animals come, drink water and go away. Someone had got to speak what hurts |
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12/12/2007 01:15:27 PM · #66 |
Okay, so I think what I am hearing some of you say is this --
When an entry obviously does not meet the challenge, and the spirit of the challenge is not met, that entry should be dq'ed.
Right? |
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12/12/2007 01:16:19 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by doctornick:
We don't know yet whether he purposefully submitted the photo of someone else. Like someone else already mentioned, it could be a language barrier issue...Another point is how do you know it's not really him? How do you know that the photo in his profile is really him? |
I tend to agree. This thread started with 3 pictures that supposedly "DNMC" Do we need signed affidavits that the pictures are really us, or a metaphysical representation of us ?
I do think that in technical setting challenges (like the 2 second exposure case) EXIF data should be used to throw out those that don't meet the challenge - just through special rules, but in other cases, either artistic license or plain old benefit of the doubt should apply and tends not to.
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12/12/2007 01:17:24 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by Simms:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Did Bear_Music get such a hard time when he entered this in Self Portrait III? ;-P
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Dunno, but massive breach of the spirit of the site IMO. The funny thing is how surprised he seemed that it came second to last. TO be honest I am surprised it did that well. |
The challenge was "Find your best side, and submit a self-portrait."
As explained in my notes, I thought long and hard on how to do a portrait of my "mind", which is by far my "best side". As further explained, I did not expect a decent finish for that image, but I was (at the time, I was new then) surprised it got hammered so bad, because it is after all a decent image and I tried to make clear in my title what the challenge connection was, in my mind.
And it prompted an amazing, and long, discussion int he forums, so that was good :-)
As far as the current image being debated,  , I would submit the following for your consideration:
Assuming for the sake of argument that he wasn't just confused and thought he needed to enter a "portrait" (he is after all from Tehran and English won't be his first language), then I'd like to think maybe his thought process went something like this:
"In my world, family and roots are everything. I want to show, in my self-portrait, where I came from and what makes me who I am."
It works for me. I'm not outraged.
R.
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12/12/2007 01:19:18 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by manish:
Well that's a perfect but a non- involving approach. its like- I can eat my bread, burp and sleep well, but i think most people here are talkng more about a value proposition and a paradigm shift than a one off instance. I think a wonderful site like this can't be treated as a waterbody where all kinda animals come, drink water and go away. Someone had got to speak what hurts |
I'm talking about a value proposition as well. My values say turn the other cheek, don't sweat the small stuff, etc.
I think constant carping about whether something meets the challenge or not harms the site more than those few shots that clearly don't. And I think that involving a DQ for DNMC would be a blow to the spirit of the site far, far greater than the DNMC was.
I'd rather let the occasional animal come and drink at the watering hole than erect a huge ugly fence around it, to use your analogy. The problem harms me little. The solution harms me more, and directly reduces creativity and interpretation.
If Bear_Music's shot (referenced above) had been DQ'd we'd all be poorer for it. I don't know that I think it belongs, but it challenges me and that's good for me. If this other shot is not a SP, that's unfortunate, but in no way does it make me poorer.
Sometimes you gotta roll with the punches. |
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12/12/2007 01:20:47 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Okay, so I think what I am hearing some of you say is this --
When an entry obviously does not meet the challenge, and the spirit of the challenge is not met, that entry should be dq'ed.
Right? |
Would this get DQ'ed ? How do you define 'spirit' of the challenge ?
Message edited by author 2007-12-12 13:21:03.
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12/12/2007 01:25:45 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Assuming for the sake of argument that he wasn't just confused and thought he needed to enter a "portrait" (he is after all from Tehran and English won't be his first language), then I'd like to think maybe his thought process went something like this:
"In my world, family and roots are everything. I want to show, in my self-portrait, where I came from and what makes me who I am." |
Yep. I considered entering a picture of my family against a Washington, DC setting. The three of them plus where I live tell much more about me than a picture of me. I would've known I'd get a low score, but I still think it would've met the challenge.
HOWEVER, I completely agree with Gordon that there should be special ruels for technical challenges. Two seconds means 2.0 seconds, not 1/2 second. 4:00 am means 4:00 am, not noon. |
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12/12/2007 01:27:16 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by karmat:
Okay, so I think what I am hearing some of you say is this --
When an entry obviously does not meet the challenge, and the spirit of the challenge is not met, that entry should be dq'ed.
Right? |
Would this get DQ'ed ? How do you define 'spirit' of the challenge ?
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2 words...
common sense. |
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12/12/2007 01:27:33 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by karmat:
Okay, so I think what I am hearing some of you say is this --
When an entry obviously does not meet the challenge, and the spirit of the challenge is not met, that entry should be dq'ed.
Right? |
Would this get DQ'ed ? How do you define 'spirit' of the challenge ?
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And that my friend is the million dollar question, and the crux of the problem that I have with dq'ing shots that don't "meet" the challenge.
Based on the arguments here, yes, this would not meet the "spirit" of the challenge. There is no "true" reflection there. Actually, there is no reflection at all. . . .
(That is NOT MY opinion, btw, but you asked)
And it is an EXCELLENT example of why dq'ing an image because we don't "think" it meets the challenge is not a good idea. The arguments and headaches it would cause make me nauseous. :) |
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12/12/2007 01:29:29 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by levyj413:
HOWEVER, I completely agree with Gordon that there should be special ruels for technical challenges. Two seconds means 2.0 seconds, not 1/2 second. 4:00 am means 4:00 am, not noon. |
I agree with that also. I make a very real distinction between technical challenges and more thematic ones. I think we'd all be a lot poorer if, for example, we narrowed down our "definition" of self-portrait to "An image of your own face, body parts optional but face must be included" or whatever.
But on the technical challenges, I think we should have special rules in place requiring photographers to adhere to the letter of the challenge.
R.
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12/12/2007 01:30:07 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Okay, so I think what I am hearing some of you say is this --
When an entry obviously does not meet the challenge, and the spirit of the challenge is not met, that entry should be dq'ed.
Right? |
After reading so many viewpoints, i agree with you.
The very sprit of a challenge is to think creative and force yourself into a new stuation. The rules here are so clear for any kind of manipulations in the image for eg for Basic challenge it goes like this
'ensure that your camera date and time are correctly set to your home time zone before shooting your entry. If the date recorded in your original image file is not within the specified challenge dates, your entry will be disqualified â₉€œ NO exceptions! If your photo was taken in a different location than indicated in your profile, please note the location in the submission form so that we can adjust accordingly.'
if a DQ can happen if teh date on the camera is not set correctly, what about the case where the face in front of the camera which is not correct? I know i am stretching the argument , but this one is specially for people who talk about expressing the creativity aspect of photography. I think every art form is a limitless expression of ones own individuality but with a setup like DPC, one has to be a part of the group which follow a certain set of rules.
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