| Author | Thread |
|
|
02/27/2008 09:36:47 PM · #201 |
From Superpope:
"Also, Joseph Smith claimed to have translated an ancient Egyptian text from heiroglyphics into something containing proper names such as "Moses" (literally impossible to do with idiograms). This original text was recently rediscovered (including Joseph Smith's original notes in the margins), and under later study at Brigham Young University was found to be nothing more than a collection of ancient Egyptian funeral instructions. I have heard that several LDS scientists left their church when this was learned. "
I heard something about this awhile back but couldn't find any info. Can you direct me to a source so I can read up on it? |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 09:41:00 PM · #202 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by rjkstesch:
Paul is preaching to groups of people who have been separated from the leaders with a solid base in the gospel and have taken some tangents. This particular group was reverting back to following the Law of Moses which had been "fulfilled in Christ." No longer did the the strict behavior codes have to be followed as the reason for those laws (preparing the people to be ready for Christ) was no longer needed. Circumcision was one of those laws, along with many others. Paul is trying to get the people to live Christ's message, not the Law of Moses. |
Don't I know it. I guess where we differ is I think his argument may be quite salient in the case of your church. Of course the specifics have changed, but the principles remain. "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" |
I don't think we disagree there at all. We are very aware that grace pays the largest part of the price.
I just know that there is a gap to be filled with grace and works. My small attempt as good works and faith starts the bridge, and Grace completes the bridge to God.
|
|
|
|
02/27/2008 10:24:20 PM · #203 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Here's the problem superpope. While I actually agree with you (at the end of the day, I do think Mormonism is based on a fallacy), our own religion seems preposterous to others. So where do you draw the line? While I understand the feelings behind it, I think it's pretty hard to discount another religion because it "doesn't make sense".
Perhaps we can ask classycam. Why believe in the precepts of a religion if there is evidence to directly counter the historical data?
|
Superpope presents a good case, and I have no explanations for the fallacies. If I were to answer, I'd have to reiterate what I've already said. In order for a person's belief system to survive under scrutiny, I believe there has to be something else involved other than just the mind. And I DO believe causing people to question why they believe what they believe is a GOOD thing. I once dated a man who said he had never thought about God, or if there is a God, etc. etc. I couldn't believe my ears. All of that has been such an issue in my life that I had no idea a person could go through life without giving it thought. I once saw a bumper sticker that said, "Ignorance is bliss, Praise the Lord." I guess ignorance can be a blessed state of mind. |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 10:33:30 PM · #204 |
| I'm confused again. This bonding thing we are talking about, people living as families when the resurrection comes, it sounds like LDS is stating that people can be married for eternity and raise children in heaven. This seems to be a direct contradiction to Jesus' own words, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." (Matthew 22:29-30) (This was a direct answer from our savior to a rabbi who questioned who would be married to the woman who had seven husbands as decreed by Hebrew law when no man produced an heir before dying.) |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 10:36:02 PM · #205 |
Originally posted by Arcanist:
I'm confused again. This bonding thing we are talking about, people living as families when the resurrection comes, it sounds like LDS is stating that people can be married for eternity and raise children in heaven. This seems to be a direct contradiction to Jesus' own words, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." (Matthew 22:29-30) (This was a direct answer from our savior to a rabbi who questioned who would be married to the woman who had seven husbands as decreed by Hebrew law when no man produced an heir before dying.) |
I asked church leaders the same question. I was told that is why it has to be done here on earth (hence ordinances for the dead) because it can't be done after the resurrection. |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 10:51:44 PM · #206 |
Why would Jesus specifically state both
a) They neither marry (ie: We don't have ceremonies that you can take pictures at and eat cake)
b) nor are they given in marriage (This sounds redundant to me if we look at A and marriage is something that could exist in heaven. Um, Jesus, didn't you just say that they don't marry?)
My interpretation is that Jesus spoke very poignantly and that the words chosen were to indicate very specific things. IMO, he must have been saying heaven has no marriage ceremonies (no bonding of two people as one) AND there is no institution of marriage at all.
|
|
|
|
02/27/2008 10:57:18 PM · #207 |
Originally posted by classycam:
I heard something about this awhile back but couldn't find any info. Can you direct me to a source so I can read up on it? |
It is The Book of Abraham. Sorry for not providing a link earlier. Anyway, finding objective info about Mormonism on the web is difficult...it's usually either someone trying to discredit Mormonism at any means or an LDS member defending their beliefs. |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 10:57:20 PM · #208 |
Originally posted by Arcanist:
Why would Jesus specifically state both
a) They neither marry (ie: We don't have ceremonies that you can take pictures at and eat cake)
b) nor are they given in marriage (This sounds redundant to me if we look at A and marriage is something that could exist in heaven. Um, Jesus, didn't you just say that they don't marry?)
My interpretation is that Jesus spoke very poignantly and that the words chosen were to indicate very specific things. IMO, he must have been saying heaven has no marriage ceremonies (no bonding of two people as one) AND there is no institution of marriage at all. |
I certainly understand your reasoning. I have a hard time wrapping my mind around it, also. Perhaps some of the more educated Mormons can give some insight. |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 10:58:40 PM · #209 |
Originally posted by superpope:
Originally posted by classycam:
I heard something about this awhile back but couldn't find any info. Can you direct me to a source so I can read up on it? |
It is The Book of Abraham. Sorry for not providing a link earlier. Anyway, finding objective info about Mormonism on the web is difficult...it's usually either someone trying to discredit Mormonism at any means or an LDS member defending their beliefs. |
You're right. I have found the same thing in my searches. Thanks for the link. |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 11:20:28 PM · #210 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Here is a bit of Paul's argument (written in a paraphrase) about living by works and why it is a bad idea |
Excuse my ignorance, but I take it you're referring to Paul the apostle here?
N
|
|
|
|
02/28/2008 12:36:35 AM · #211 |
Originally posted by Arcanist:
Why would Jesus specifically state both
a) They neither marry (ie: We don't have ceremonies that you can take pictures at and eat cake)
b) nor are they given in marriage (This sounds redundant to me if we look at A and marriage is something that could exist in heaven. Um, Jesus, didn't you just say that they don't marry?)
My interpretation is that Jesus spoke very poignantly and that the words chosen were to indicate very specific things. IMO, he must have been saying heaven has no marriage ceremonies (no bonding of two people as one) AND there is no institution of marriage at all. |
The man was treated differently than a woman. A man married - he chose and initiated a marriage. The woman was given in marriage - her family/father allowed her to be married. In heaven, there are no marriages/(sealings), they are handled here on earth. If a person is not sealed here on earth (either for himself or by someone else for the dead), then the person can receive the Celestial glory, but will not have an eternal companion nor increase (children). This person will be an angel.
Here is the modern day scripture that clarifies Matt:
D&C 132: 16 (15-17).
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in amarriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
|
|
|
|
02/28/2008 12:57:26 AM · #212 |
Originally posted by Quasimojo:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Here is a bit of Paul's argument (written in a paraphrase) about living by works and why it is a bad idea |
Excuse my ignorance, but I take it you're referring to Paul the apostle here?
N |
Yes, sorry, I was talking about Paul. The passage comes from Galatians and is, as you no doubtedly can tell, a paraphrase. |
|
|
|
02/29/2008 06:28:21 PM · #213 |
::Suddenly, waking up from a past life experience as Marilyn Monroe...peers into the thread::
Gosh...what happened to this thread? I was wading knee deep into the Journal of Discourses and the rather shocking and disturbing Salamander Letter, and lost track of the discussion a little bit.
Have a terrific weekend, Everyone! |
|
|
|
09/09/2008 02:09:11 PM · #214 |
Forgive me I am not a scholar nor am I a particular good writer.
My comments are based on scripture however I have not quoted book and chapter much is what I have learned over the years of study and prayer and thus by defense is my spiritual testimony about what I understand of God. I hope you accept this words with the humility they were intended.
How do I feel about the Darker days of Mormonism?
How do I feel about the darker days of the Bible? They go hand in hand. Think about this Cain and Able had one church to choose from the one their Father (Adam a Prophet of God) had established with god. Able was willing to believe his father and performed the sacrifices as required by God and was blessed. Cain in his prideful way decided to do his own sacrifice thinking his ways were as good or better than Gods ways and his sacrifice was rejected. His pride and rejection of his fathers teaching lead him away from the only true church. There was only one. His pride eventually lead him to the point where he could kill his brother the first murder. He was taught the same things as Able but his choices led him away from God and to his destruction.
For arguments sake lets say that God did call another Prophet and instructed him how to restore the missing authority to act in Gods name and to translate a record preserved by God about the prophesies of Christ and his eventual visit to descendants of David on the American Continent who had themselves preserved portions of the old testament to bring with them so that they would not forget the prophesies of prophets like Isaiah. Some people will be like Able and receive a witness to this truth others may also accept that these events are true but due to a variety of human frailties pride being one of them will decided that the current Prophet is not correct and split off from the church. This is much easier now as there are so many options and opinions to fallow that they can easily justify their choices. This doesn’t make the current church any less correct than the first church.
Is it OK to challenge the Prophet of the church and do Mormons challenge the Prophet?
That all depends on how strongly you believe that there is a prophet at the head of the church. If Thomas S Monson is the current prophet he directs the church as directed by God not by the wishes of Thomas S Monson. If I believe what I say I do why would I challenge the Prophet of God about doctrine and the direction of the church, because if what I believe is true and I do believe it is true God is directing the church and what the prophet reveals is Gods will. I don’t have to blindly follow the direction of the prophet the Holy Spirit his also a witness to all truth if I am living close to the spirit it will confirm the truth to me as the prophet is speaking. I can further do as James said and ask God if some aspect of the church is true if I as in faith nothing wavering with true intent God will answer that prayer by the promptings of the Holy Spirit. If you believe in the Bible and the power of prayer you can find the truth of all things.
The Book of Mormon has a similar promise that if you read it and pray to God to confirm that it is a preserved record of prophets of God that the Holy Spirit will confirm this in your heart. I have taken that challenge and proved to my satisfaction that it is as valid as the old and new testament and is the word of god and a second witness to the resurrected Christ who visited the people of the Americas and taught them the same gospel as the people of the old world.
Has a person or group rejected a pronouncement by the prophet and had that pronouncement changed? No again if the prophet really does represent God not his own agendas why would you challenge God. On the local level in the wards and branches there are all kinds of discussions about how to do things and the Bishop will frequently ask for input about various things. He may even come up with a plan to get more people to come to meetings on Sunday we will try the plan and at some point someone might say this isn’t working and provide feedback that helps the plan to work. Are we sheep acting blindly when our church leaders speak, no I don’t believe so as we can and do receive confirmation from the spirit about the doctrines of the church. Do people challenge the Prophet? Yes they do and they have from day one I don’t know why you would have to ask them, the people who do this tend to leave the church and that is their choice sometimes people are asked to leave the church due to their stand on doctrine or other issues. They are always welcome back but we don’t have teams of people out searching for them to deprogram them there is no wringing of hands and secret meetings to get them back. It is more likely that family members will talk with them about the issues they have they will pray for them and hope that they will return. Of course there are families who have gone to extremes about this and done all kinds of things some reported by news sources I have found these families to be in the extreme minority. My own sister and brother in-law have left the church for extended periods of time for personal reasons. Over the last few years they have chosen to come back to church, I think my Sister noticed she was missing things in her life that the church provides I think the biggest thing is the companionship of the Holy Spirit and the guiding influence it can be in your life.
Do we believe in the same Jesus Christ as all Christians? Yes we do! Are there differences about what we believe about Christ and other Christians? Yes there are. Christians have accepted the decree set out by the Nicene Creed in the 4th century AD Emperor Constantine wanted to unify all Christens. One of the big debates at the time was is there one God comprised of God the father, Christ and the Holy Spirit or three distinct individuals unified in purpose. The creed had many drafts by the most knowledgeable men of the time and ultimately ended up with the current Christian definition of the Godhead. When I look at scripture I can’t reconcile the creed with what I read.
If God and Christ on one individual why would Christ pray to himself in the garden of Gethsemane and say not my will by thy will be done. This implies to people with two wills the fathers and the Sons. Why would Christ the Son of God ask his father to forgive the people who crucified him. Why didn’t he say “I forgive you for you know not what you do”. When Christ was Baptized the voice of the Father was heard “Behold this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased” and the Holy Ghost descended on Christ in the form of a dove. This image alone clearly defines three individuals.
God has revealed himself to prophets many times in the scriptures I believe that God has not closed the heavens and has revealed himself to modern-day prophets he has shown himself to be separate from his Son and the Holy Ghost three distinct individuals with one unified purpose, and clarified the debate started at the council of Nicene.
While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was restored by God by a chosen Prophet the members are men like everyone else in the world they will do as men have always done and go off in multitudes of directions the history of our church is full of these kinds of people and I am sure there will be plenty more in the years to come. Gods plan is not to force his children to return to them but to allow them to experience a mortal life and be open to the spirit. If we choose to follow the spirit he will lead us back to God. “This is my opinion not an official church stance”. All churches teach of spiritual things of God and doing good to all our brothers as we learn to recognize the spirit in our life God will prepare the way for us to return to him.
Do I live my life feeling like I can’t be good enough to return and live with God? If it were up to me alone yes I would feel overwhelmed and completely inadequate. But Christ has taken upon him all our sins if we but believe in him and repent. I make mistakes all the time but I always try and do better. I try to do the things God has commanded; I was baptized by someone with authority from God to do it. I have received the Gift of the Holy Ghost by someone with authority to confer it. I try to share the Gospel with my fellow sons and daughters of God. I try to live my life close to the spirit so that I might know what I should do.
It all comes down to this for me does God speak to his children? I think he does when he answers prayers. Has he and does he reveal himself to prophets? I know he did and still does. If he didn’t there is no point in reading the bible or any other scripture for that matter. If he did why would he stop speaking to prophets? The world needs the word of God now more than ever why would God abandon us in these troubled times? If God revealed his word to a prophet why would I challenge Gods word who am I to place myself above God? Is there one correct path back to God? Christ said there was only one way: John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." It is up to us to find that one true way.
|
|
Home -
Challenges -
Community -
League -
Photos -
Cameras -
Lenses -
Learn -
Help -
Terms of Use -
Privacy -
Top ^
DPChallenge, and website content and design, Copyright © 2001-2025 Challenging Technologies, LLC.
All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission.
Current Server Time: 03/12/2025 07:39:57 PM EDT.
