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01/09/2004 08:21:18 AM · #26 |
Also remember, he can still exhibit ADD/ADHD or even a learning disability with a high IQ.[/quote]
I agree but in terms of intervention you first find out the IQ and adjust the curriculum to meet the child and then look to see if the behavior improves. If it does not improve THEN you look for alternate ways to deal with the situation. Medicine should not be given as a first intervention. |
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01/09/2004 09:34:42 AM · #27 |
| I work in an elementary school, and am among many that believe that the kids are diagnosed and medicated too quickly and too often these days. Learning styles need to be considered before medication. Unfortunately, funds are going toward special education which leads to the segregation of the student body, instead of the resouces being used to address basic learing differences between 'normal' kids. |
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01/09/2004 09:49:55 AM · #28 |
| I emphasize with your frustration. I was an elementary school principal for fourteen years (until last year) and dealt with many children with ADD and ADHD. Please don't give up! It sounds like you have good communication with the school, which is VERY important. I think it is very signiticant that there is no progress with current med. I would not dismiss that it certainly could be several other things- unstructured or undisciplined classroom, OCD, CD, or underlying anger. Also, some pediatricians prescribe meds. without consultation and a psychiatric evaluation. CHADD is one of the best resources for parents. I have the names of several specific resouces which I would be happy to pass on to you. If interested, just email me directly. Julie |
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01/09/2004 10:17:14 AM · #29 |
*************This always makes me wonder...what did your parents do for your "undiagnosed" ADD (diagnosed when in adulthood), when you were a child? What did people do 20-100 years ago for this type of problem? I know many people who work in the medical field (I am an ER RN) that "recently" have been told they were probably ADD/ADHD children. How did they get through? How are they MD's, RN's, Rad tech's, etc.? My opinion--rules, discipline, routine and structure. And parents that backed it up.
***************
As an adult with ADD, as far as I can tell, since I missed both doctor's appointments. As a child I did my work to please my teachers. As I got older and the structure at home slacked wayyyyy back, I lost focus. I never graduated high school (never fear, I'm a semester away from my masters now).
The reason I can do anything NOW is that I have to have a deadline or give myself a deadline. WHen not working against a deadline or structured expectations, I usually won't get it done.
Many of the kids in the past that had it to the point they were a problem were simply expelled, home schooled, classified as "special" and mainstreamed OUT of the classroom or they had their little asses beat until they learned or adjusted enough to get by. I also remember staying in the same classroom until sixth grade, now days they have kids moving from class to class for this and that. There are a lot of extra stimuli in classrooms today, more expectations that aren't spelled out clearly and more changing schedules during the day.
I can't remember the age of this child but there is a new "Leapster" which is similar to a game boy but has more educational games. The Leap Pad probably wouldn't keep his attention long enough. I still say, find him a hobby and then encourage it to death. It also ends up being your bargaining chip for things YOU want him to do - ie: dishes.
CHORES - we've also fallen out of the chore thing in modern society, but in my readings, with my kids, chores are a key aspect to the day, they must feed the animals, clean the bathroom, sweep or vacum the kitchen and load the dishwasher. And no, they don't get an allowance to do so.
I do agree, for some kids, the medication is needed. Only a parent can decide that, however, having seen three year olds on meds, I think as a society we really need to re-evaluate what is necessary and what is easier for a parent to do.
My sister and her child were literally pushed into medication by his teachers. They basically said, medicate him or keep him home. I don't personally think he was that bad, but I also didn't have to work with him everyday. I think it was the easiest route for the school, a school, I might add, that was supposed to be working with problem kids!
Anyway, it's a hard choice either way you look at it. Sorry if I wrote too much, you've clearly posted a hot topic !! :) |
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01/09/2004 10:19:26 AM · #30 |
Well said!
If the child needs to be homeschooled because of his high IQ then that should be done. Don't give a child medication if they don't need it. And I would also look up what the consequence the child will have as an adult from taking these meds. If he uses it then he will not be allowed in the army. I am not sure about other situations that might occur as an adult. This is something that should not be taken lightly.
My personally experience with dealing with kids who were diagnosed with having add/adha, they have a discipline problem at home. The parents let them run wild. Don't give them drugs when all then need is some time out!
Remember the easy way isn't always the best way.
Soni
Originally posted by WildflowerJoy:
Also remember, he can still exhibit ADD/ADHD or even a learning disability with a high IQ. |
I agree but in terms of intervention you first find out the IQ and adjust the curriculum to meet the child and then look to see if the behavior improves. If it does not improve THEN you look for alternate ways to deal with the situation. Medicine should not be given as a first intervention.[/quote]
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01/09/2004 11:30:41 AM · #31 |
I want to thank everyone who has responded to this. I spoke more in detail this morning with his teacher and I told her this is it no more meds til he has been completely evaluated including an IQ test. She understood completely and told me what all I had to do to get the school to test him. Simple as submitting a written request for testing. I did that before I even left her classroom.
This afternoon he is meeting with a new doctor, and after everyones imput I am going to ask for more extensive testing before he is given anymore meds.
Also one of the links that was here lead me to an article about ADDvantage herbal treatment for ADHD anyone have any experience with that? |
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01/09/2004 11:33:11 AM · #32 |
I agree meds should not be first course of action, however, they can really help. The prescribing psychiatrist I dealt with for my kids, had a good analogy, if a child needs insulin for diabetes we certainly would not deny him/her it. Why if a child needs ritalin/meds why would we dent him /her it?
Before my current job I was a family therapist and have my MA in counselling, and I do agree not every active kid should be on ritalin, some kids (accurately diagnosed and dosed properly) can do very well thanks to it. |
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01/09/2004 12:22:36 PM · #33 |
I said something in my recent post about a friend who sold vitamins and as alternative to meds for the diagnose of ADD/ADHD she used the vitamins. I dont believe they were the ADDAdvantage but most all vitamins including Centrum A to Z for adults and or kids have most of the same ingredients. (Well doctors or scientist might prove me wrong)wich I am sure it is very imporntant to understand the ingredients of what it is, how it is used, how much or quantity is in it, and the affects that it will have. My friends kids were much better after changing to the vitamins and in her experience all the meds that the doctors put her kids on changed everthing for about a year for their family. They werent happy!
I would defanetly research everything that everyone has posted here (I am doing that too great references, thanks all!) before making your mind up about anything. I beleive you are defanetly off to a good start with saying no more meds till IQ test is done and seeing another doctor. Good Luck! Hope everything works out for you, let us know.
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01/09/2004 01:01:06 PM · #34 |
I just got off the phone with the school guidence counselor and she is forwarding a request to the special education department of the school district to do an IQ test. I will be receiving premission forms from the school next week sometime to start testing him.
She informed me that the teacher also thinks he needs to be tested, his grades are all A's with the exception of reading and english. His teacher says he is very bright and she can't understand the reading grade either. He is in advanced math but below grade level reading and yet he can ace a math test that is all comprehensive problems. I just think he finds the reading materials BORING! Anyhow his teacher is swaying towards getting him a TSS also as an alternative to medication. |
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01/09/2004 06:48:17 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by tolovemoon:
I said something in my recent post about a friend who sold vitamins and as alternative to meds for the diagnose of ADD/ADHD she used the vitamins. |
I have nothing against herbs, etc., but you have to be careful and know exactly what you are taking. Always hear the commercials "all natural...so that means it is good for me and ok." Not true. foxglove is an all natural pretty flowering plant, but will kill children, pets, and you if ingested. It is used to make the medication Lanoxin/digoxin. Just one example.
I always give the speech to people on discharge from the ER, that if they are going to use those herbs, and all natural remedies, to know exactly what, how much, and what it does.
Just like alot of diet "ephedrine (that stuff can kill you too) free" pills, etc. They still have Ma Huang in it, which is 8% ephedrine. So be careful! |
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01/09/2004 07:45:13 PM · #36 |
Things didn't go well at the doctors today. The new doctor is actually in a family practice and not used to dealing with children, she is only feeling into til my son's doctor can be replaced. She didn't even know who to refer us to as a specialist at Children's Hospital in Pittsburgh.
I came home so unimpressed with her that I called the other hospital here and inquired about getting him seen by a behavioral specialists. Something that according to the doctor we saw today Altoona doesn't have.
Oh boy this is going to be a long road til I can get him a complete evaluation. But hey no new drugs!!! |
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01/09/2004 08:05:39 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
good ADD book
that book would be a good place to start.
if you want more info on the subject of how/why we started doing idiotic things like creating refined sugar/flour: sugar blues
i HIGHLY recomend these as part of your treatment. hell.. i recomend these for EVERYONE :)
calcium
chromium
majorminerals |
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01/10/2004 10:17:46 AM · #38 |
Good advice! And I hope you also tell your patients details of the side effects and possible adverse (and even life threatening) reactions that they can suffer taking the medications that have been prescribed by their physicians, from the ER or their private practitioners. How they can recognize a side effect/adverse reaction...that they should read package inserts and if they don't understand what's stated that they should contact their doctors/nurses and ASK. That medication regimens harm many people each year and that many people return to the hospital due to these adverse events. That even highly touted medicines, such as, aspirin and acetaminophen can cause harm to liver and stomach.
I hope you are also informing people that have been prescribed antibiotics that there is a world wide problem with resistant infections related to their overprescription and that they should consult with their physicians to see if it is absolutely necessary that these be taken. That these resistant infections can breed in them and increase the likelihood that future infectious illness may be more difficult to treat or even render future courses of antibiotic treatment futile.
I hope you are telling your patients on discharge that doctors make mistakes in both diagnosis and treatment (after all, they are human, many are overworked and probably have many more patients than they can safely handle) and that they should be their own advocates in their care and not just follow along blindly. That they can get second and third opinions (if they have insurance) and what alternatives are open to them should their course of treatment not be effective.
I hope you are informing them that even if their medication/treatment regimens are successful in alleviating their symtoms that change in lifestyle habits can have a more profound and long term effect to maintaining good health and keeping them out of the hospital and doctor's office. That medicine treats symptoms and does not effect cause.
Even someone under a doctor's care may not be followed closely. There are many more adverse events (and serious ones, at that) due to conventional treatment.
Originally posted by dacrazyrn:
Originally posted by tolovemoon:
I said something in my recent post about a friend who sold vitamins and as alternative to meds for the diagnose of ADD/ADHD she used the vitamins. |
I have nothing against herbs, etc., but you have to be careful and know exactly what you are taking. Always hear the commercials "all natural...so that means it is good for me and ok." Not true. foxglove is an all natural pretty flowering plant, but will kill children, pets, and you if ingested. It is used to make the medication Lanoxin/digoxin. Just one example.
I always give the speech to people on discharge from the ER, that if they are going to use those herbs, and all natural remedies, to know exactly what, how much, and what it does.
Just like alot of diet "ephedrine (that stuff can kill you too) free" pills, etc. They still have Ma Huang in it, which is 8% ephedrine. So be careful! |
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01/10/2004 10:45:41 AM · #39 |
***********I agree meds should not be first course of action, however, they can really help. The prescribing psychiatrist I dealt with for my kids, had a good analogy, if a child needs insulin for diabetes we certainly would not deny him/her it. Why if a child needs ritalin/meds why would we dent him /her it?
************************
Without taking this thread to a place it wasn't mean to go, I strongly disagree with this post.
ADD and ADHD, while a medical condition, have not been proven as "cured" with medication. Rather, the medication dulls or activates certain parts of a person's physiology. It does not "CHANGE" anything, other than maybe a person's ability to concentrate for that amount of time. Once the medicine is gone, so are the effects.
Like the propoganda about Anti-Depressents. Listen closely to the commercials, "it may be shown" they have no real Proof of anything. The AD are creating a dulled effect on a person's emotions. Isn't it better, in the long run, to get talk therapy, excersise, get a hobby, deal with the problems, than to drug ourselves.
The argument about diabetes is like saying, "He's a drunk, why won't you give him a beer?"
Not to start anything, but I don't believe you can compare diabetes, a known medical condition, in which the medicine does physically change the body and save lives, to ritalin, a known stimulant that is now on the drug black market cuz it's so "good" at what it does.
While this analogy may work for this doctor, it would be the words that sent me out of his office, with my kids in tow. |
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01/10/2004 11:06:51 AM · #40 |
Some key concepts and ideas:
consistency
love
structure
Some key questions I may ask myself if I had a child with this problem:
Does he/(she) feel grounded?
Does he feel connected? (to you, his father, the community, socially, spiritually)
Does he feel anxious?
Does he feel confident?
Does he feel love? (for you, other people, objects, himself)
Does he feel he has the right to express his own emotions? (anger or sadness too)
Does he feel he is listened to?
Does he feel he can communicate on an intimate basis?
Does he feel he has control over himself?
Does he feel he can be himself and express honestly who he is to others?
Does he feel supported?
Does he feel vulnerable?
Do I have support and an appropriate outlet for my emotions?
I think problems that can be as difficult and intractable as this need a multi-dimensional approach. There will probably not be just one thing that turns it around for him. All that has been stated above is probably good, but it's you that has to decide on what's best and integrate and orchestrate it.
Message edited by author 2004-01-10 11:18:13. |
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01/12/2004 02:27:51 PM · #41 |
I want to thank everyone for all the help here. I knew I couldn't be alone. I have chose to be MOM. After spending a few days totally frustrated and in tears from time to time knowing that I left the doctor put him on the first drug without first insisting on a complete evaluation. I stood my ground now with the school and the doctor. Refused anymore drugs without first more testing. I don't intend on letting them talk me into another drug for him until we have eleminated all other options. Including MOM insisting that the school stops sitting on their butts and get him a TSS. I decided that since I am off work for the next few months I might as well become his own private aide and show them that all he needs is personal attention to get him moving in reading class and not some drug that is going to control his brain. I made arrangements to get a TB test with the school nurse later this week so that next week I can walk into the classroom and be his own personal aide. Figured rather than moaning for the next 6 months that the school won't get him an aide why not put my education to use and become his own aide.
Again I got to thank all of you for all your help you have no idea how much I have appreciated it. Those of you who sent me pms thanks bunches for all the help and those of you who have older children and aren't happy with your choices for your kids thank you so very much for offering insite from your experiences.
To whoever it was who said when the doctor tells you something say WHY thanks...as of today when there is any more classroom problems with my little boy my question is Why can't he have a TSS? =o)
Thanks a lot everyone you all reminded me of the reason I love DPC so much.
Message edited by author 2004-01-12 14:30:09. |
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01/12/2004 02:51:57 PM · #42 |
| I always figured that Attention Deficit Disorder was primarily caused by a lack of attention (not by the kid). I think the analogous situation is a dog which chews shoes -- the first theing the vet will tell you is that they need more attention and play-time with you. |
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01/12/2004 02:55:55 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I always figured that Attention Deficit Disorder was primarily caused by a lack of attention (not by the kid). I think the analogous situation is a dog which chews shoes -- the first theing the vet will tell you is that they need more attention and play-time with you. |
I have to agree cause days when I have all the time in the world he is a great kid. He is always good for Pappy and Grammy who smoother him with attention so why not try just giving him more attention when he is having trouble at school. |
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