| Author | Thread |
|
|
01/20/2004 02:19:33 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by carlacryptic:
An artist I know who is in his 60's, black, and very
strong physically is always having to deal with this because young, white photographers often take his picture when he's out walking or
on a bus or BART (public train system). He always asks them politely to stop (they never ask him first) but, if they don't, he'll break their cameras. Once he threw one under a BART train. In his life to date, only a show of force has ever gotten him respectful treatment.
|
I find it impossible to condone assault and battery as a means of stopping someone from photographing another person. If your friend has a problem with being photographed in a public place, and the photographer does not respond to being asked to stop, he should leave. He can huff and puff all he wants, but physically damaging a person or their property, unless it is in self defense, is grounds for legal action, both criminal and civil. He would lose on both counts. Your friend should be aware that his actions could cause him significant legal and financial problems.
P.S. I always ask, but many don't.
|
|
|
|
01/20/2004 02:23:10 PM · #27 |
I dont know why in this day people are still so uptight about pictures (Theres got to be enough commercials, media, articles, ect to advise them about it) And for the sake of safety specially in public I am now very glad cameras are everywhere! You never know someone elses camera might catch the thief that robbed the store or bank, or the murderer. Crime rate has really picked up in are small towns near us and it bothers me raising my kids in it. I used to not fear shopping alone but now I prefer company (safety in numbers). I dont think its so much a privacy issue, I think people are just paranoid they might get caught on camera doing something embarrassing. I dont know but people should lighten up!
|
|
|
|
01/20/2004 02:24:29 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by tolovemoon:
I dont know why in this day people are still so uptight about pictures (Theres got to be enough commercials, media, articles, ect to advise them about it) And for the sake of safety specially in public I am now very glad cameras are everywhere! You never know someone elses camera might catch the thief that robbed the store or bank, or the murderer. Crime rate has really picked up in are small towns near us and it bothers me raising my kids in it. I used to not fear shopping alone but now I prefer company (safety in numbers). I dont think its so much a privacy issue, I think people are just paranoid they might get caught on camera doing something embarrassing. I dont know but people should lighten up! |
You should get the police to install one in your living room then, they might catch someone breaking in....
|
|
|
|
01/20/2004 02:30:26 PM · #29 |
You should get the police to install one in your living room then, they might catch someone breaking in....[/quote]
Hahaha funny that you should mention that! We do use security cameras on are yard to watch the kids play and the front door just to be warned who is there!
|
|
|
|
01/20/2004 03:34:40 PM · #30 |
Zeuszen: I know, that's something I struggle with. There are photographs which changed the course of my life when I was growing up which I would not feel comfortable taking myself. Being an 'exotic' subject to many photographers over the years, and being a photographer myself, it is something I've had to live with from both sides and that sometimes makes it a bit more complicated for me. I fluctuate on the question of whether or not art creates its own ethical environment outside that of other social responsibilities humans might have towards each other - I'm reminded of something Gene Wilder said once when reminded that his difficult childhood was probably why he was famous. He said that he'd rather have had a happy childhood. There are people whose images have changed the course of human events who've later said that they wished they'd been left to their anonymity... I can make arguments for either position.
By the way, I was responding to some posts which were talking about ways to take people's pictures without their realizing it and that's what I was reacting to when I said "I don't like the idea of tricking people into not realizing they're being photographed." What you're talking about is something else, IMHO. Journalism is another difficult area because some things which are revealed need to be but, without some self-restraint on the part of photographers and other journalists, human suffering becomes a modern equivalent of bread and circuses.
|
|
|
|
01/20/2004 03:41:18 PM · #31 |
Spazmo99: I guess you're implying that I support my friend's actions in destroying people's cameras. As a matter of fact, I don't and it's something I've been trying to get him to stop doing NOT because it's something he can be taken to court over but because it doesn't respect another person's physical rights. I was just stating a fact and why it was happening since it seemed like the posts in this thread were all going one direction without any consideration of other points of view. I thought it might be helpful to illuminate someone else's point of view and also remind people that just because one feels one has a right to do something doesn't make it a good idea.
Is there anyone posting in this thread besides me who isn't white, male, first world? I'm not saying there isn't, I'm asking because I'm trying to figure out if it really is a racial/cultural/gender/class thing or not.
|
|
|
|
01/20/2004 04:23:05 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by carlacryptic:
Spazmo99: I guess you're implying that I support my friend's actions in destroying people's cameras. |
No, I did not intend to imply that and I apologize if it was taken that way. My intent was to convey my contempt for physical intimidation, physical violence and also to point out that there may be legal consequences for that type of behavior.
I think we both agree physical aggression is an unacceptable solution.
|
|
|
|
01/20/2004 04:31:59 PM · #33 |
Well, seeing that I fit all three of those catergories... (No, I know what you mean though)
Originally posted by Trinch:
The biggest downside is that many people make great subjects but horrible models. Once they know they are in the picture their ability to act or pose natural is gone. |
Really, I understand situations where it would be appropriate to ask, I really do. The prolbem is is that you can't make a blanket rule saying that you have to ask every single person if you can take a shot of them IMO. You have to take every single situation on a case by case basis, it's all a matter of good judgement.
I agree with the above quote wholeheartedly, candid shots are exactly that...candid. If someone knows you are taking a shot and they don't mind, they are going to be self-conscious about the shot and not act candid.
99% of the people you take shots of will most likely ever see that shot again and I bet most even forget about it. It's not like it's a life-changing thing when some one takes a shot of you.
I do really think there are exceptions to either side of the stroy though.
Just to keep this all in perspecive, are you going to ask every single person you take a picture of that is in a shot where you have a crowd or audience, maybe someone won't like it and feel offended because they weren';t aware they were being "shot?" I believe candids capture life as it is, not as people would neccasarily like. Just my opinion.
|
|
|
|
01/20/2004 04:51:23 PM · #34 |
Yes, we agree completely about physical intimidation and violence.
Goinskiing: Lol... it's my understanding that crowds are a different matter, that crowds can be photographed without asking for permission. And, as I tried to say, there are times when asking beforehand isn't feasible or possible but I always ask afterwards (if I can) if it's okay for me to use it in print or online. If it isn't, I'll just use it to draw from instead. It's a lot of work and sometimes I can't use things that are my most favorite.
I think you've said something important when you say that most people won't see the photograph - I am talking about photographs which will be used online or published. So, if you're never going to sell a photograph or post it online, there's no need for getting permission and releases to be legal. So, what's left is just ethical. In those cases, I still don't take some photographs because I don't want to compromise someone's privacy but, again, YMMV and it may just be something I'm OVERLY sensitive about. Certainly it limits me as an artist at times.
|
|
|
|
01/20/2004 05:35:58 PM · #35 |
Carla- Couldn't agree with you more. I feel that many candid shots of ethnic/racial minorities, the homeless, the elderly etc. do more to exploit the subject (or group as a whole) than to bring about any real sense of understanding, sympathy, or tolerance. Perhaps it's because shots of this type tend to be overdone. Ethically, I don't feel right about photographing someone without their permission.
Thanks for your well thought out and sensitive input!
Chris
|
|
|
|
01/20/2004 06:14:22 PM · #36 |
I was across the street and behind sign but she caught me just the same. From the look on her face I don't think she was too happy with me. :)
 |
|
|
|
01/20/2004 06:30:08 PM · #37 |
Hello, hello, hello. Folks the amount of insight I am getting here is tremendous!!! Here I was trying to get to unblock my psychological block as an amateur photographer and you guys bring me the other side: the block of the one being pictured, that is really cool and something that has to be considered indeed.
What Carla brought into discussion is invaluable. I do think that it is worth forcing your way a bit and be a little nosy though, we never know where the world will be in a hundred years and who knows those unconsented pictures will be the very reconstruction of our times. Nevertheless, as human beings we owe respect to each other, being photographed can be something really shocking and annoying mostly when you are not expecting it.
"It's been a bad day, please don't take my picture,
It's been a bad day, please
It's been a bad day, please don't take my picture,
It's been a bad day, please" |
|
|
|
01/20/2004 07:34:37 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by goinskiing:
Originally posted by Trinch:
The biggest downside is that many people make great subjects but horrible models. Once they know they are in the picture their ability to act or pose natural is gone. |
Really, I understand situations where it would be appropriate to ask, I really do. The prolbem is is that you can't make a blanket rule saying that you have to ask every single person if you can take a shot of them IMO. You have to take every single situation on a case by case basis, it's all a matter of good judgement.
|
I'm JWM native Californian who is camera-shy (having a camera in hand is a good excuse to not have one's photo taken). First off, I think this really only applies in cases where the subjects are recognizable or there is no overwhelming journalistic value which might trump individual privacy rights (in public places).
There is no one answer, and I often go with my gut-level feeling about the subjects. Sometimes I take the photo with no contact, sometimes I'll ask first, sometimes I'll ask afterwards. Just today I passed on a shot of a cool license plate (even though that's a matter of public record) because I thought in that particular case I should ask first, and there wasn't time.
One of the ways I take "clandestine" photos is by holding the camera at waist-level and face 90 degrees from the subject, so it doesn't look like I'm taking a photo at all but just looking around. I'm fairly successful at framing the picture by such "dead reckoning."
One of the ways I try to protect the privacy of the subjects is by using a view or crop such that the subjects are not personally identifiable.
Message edited by author 2004-01-20 19:36:25. |
|
|
|
01/21/2004 12:25:31 AM · #39 |
Thanks, Chris, I appreciate that.
Justine: This is a good example of what I don't get - why post it if you feel she wasn't happy with you for taking the picture? I don't get it. A friend of mine who is a lot younger is always getting on me for not understanding the current generation's 'bratty' (to me) "cool" (to him) humor/attitudes/behavior. I may just be showing my age in this.
GeneralE: Lol... I do that, too (crop so that people aren't recognizable - I also take lots of shots of people doing general things where they're either too far away or have their backs to me so that the mood is captured but no one is compromised. You bring up another aspect of this that is interesting to me (can you people tell I am from an academic background - social and cultural anthropology, for what it's worth - there are lots of these ethical concerns in that field!)... you, like many other photographers, don't feel comfortable having your picture taken. In your case, that may be one of the reasons you try to ask people for permission when you do. But, what surprises me is how many people who don't want their pictures taken don't feel it's wierd that someone they're photographing might feel the same way. That's one of the things that seems strange to me.
I should add that I agree there is no one answer, either for one person in different situations, or for all photographers.
I'm glad I brought it up because I think it's something that isn't considered often enough, even as a concept. :) I didn't mean to detract from the original question, though! In fact, I have struggled with this myself and haven't gotten past it in all situations. In other words, there are times when I could easily ask someone if it's all right for me to take a picture of them when I nevertheless don't do it. I sometimes curse myself later. :)
|
|
|
|
01/21/2004 12:33:29 AM · #40 |
Luis: Do you carry a card with you when you're shooting? I've been doing that for a long time - something with my name, an image I've shot, and my email address. Like someone else who posted, I give people my card when I'm taking pictures around them and I either want to take some of them or feel they are worried about what I'm shooting (that happens a lot with people's gardens, not just their faces!)... once they see I'm a photographer and what kinds of pictures I take, that usually breaks the ice and has even gotten me into people's houses and back yards to take more pictures. :) I always send a photocard (a postcard made from an image I shot of them or in their space) afterwards (I usually have their address because I'm at or near their house when I do the shooting). In a public space, I offer to send a copy if they'll give me contact information and if I end up with something great. That way, if nothing great comes of it, I don't feel obligated to send something I don't feel proud of. I sometimes have release forms with me and I'm trying to make sure I have them every time I go out - they're small, on a postcard, instead of those 8 1/2 x 11 sheets I've seen used. I want them to be convenient and easy to keep organized and clean. I have my name and an image or two on those as well. It's all about getting my name and my pictures in people's minds in a positive way. Some people have asked me to do jobs for them based on these brief encounters.
Oh, and last but not least, I'm a real ham in front of the camera. I always have been. But I think that's why I'm so aware of it when people aren't. I feel for them even though I have never felt that way. The last thing I want to do is make someone feel bad about something that's making me feel good. :)
|
|
|
|
01/21/2004 12:36:51 AM · #41 |
Hi @Carla.
In my defense...she's in a public place, it's a candid shot. I doubt I did any harm. If so she would of come over and said something to me. My intention was not to make her happy. I didn't run off and remained there on the curb for another 10 minutes till my fingers were frozen.
p.s.Please know I would never intentionally hurt anyone.
p.s.s. I'm not a brat...[okay that could be argued].
lol |
|
|
|
01/21/2004 12:41:41 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by carlacryptic:
I sometimes have release forms with me and I'm trying to make sure I have them every time I go out - they're small, on a postcard, instead of those 8 1/2 x 11 sheets I've seen used. I want them to be convenient and easy to keep organized and clean. I have my name and an image or two on those as well. It's all about getting my name and my pictures in people's minds in a positive way. Some people have asked me to do jobs for them based on these brief encounters. |
You should consider selling or sharing your design for this ... sounds very handy! |
|
|
|
01/21/2004 12:43:57 AM · #43 |
//presentsofmind.com/html/photographers%20release.htm
There are several on Google.
Message edited by author 2004-01-21 00:44:12. |
|
|
|
01/21/2004 09:18:18 AM · #44 |
Carla, Justine,
You are great! I think both resources (personal card and release form) are really good and shows a bit more respect to the subject of the photos.
Carla, have you ever heard of the Good Death Sisterhood (Irmandade da Boa Morte)in Cachoeira, Bahia, Brazil? You know when you were talking about your friend who kept being photographed by people without his consenting it reminded me about something similar that happened with the sisterhood (a little piece of gossip for later).
Check these links:
In Portuguese with a few black and white pictures:
//www.naya.org.ar/congreso2002/ponencias/francisca_marques.htm
In German with two small pictures at the bottom of the page:
//www.brasilien.de/volk/religion/staaten/irmanda.asp
In Portuguese with lots of pictures:
//www.facom.ufba.br/com024/boamorte/festir.html
Last but not least (actually the best link so far and in English):
//www.geocities.com/wellesley/4328/eindex.htm |
|
|
|
01/21/2004 03:31:12 PM · #45 |
Luis: That's fascinating and it's one of the situations in which I'm sure photographers as well as writers helped the Sisters' cause and got the word out. Thanks for those links, they're cool to read.
GeneralE: Good idea - maybe I will. :)
Justine: Lol... I think there's a side to everyone that is (or can be) bratty but for those raised as I was (oldest child, a girl, with three younger brothers I was responsible for to my mother who worked and went to school full time to support us), brattiness has always been something I've suppressed in myself and felt threatened by from others. It's something I've heard many oldest children, especially female, share. :)
I also grew up around a lot of elderly people who were very kind to me and I remember what it was like for them when youthful brattiness would surface - now that I'm in my 50's and have dealt with a lot of illnesses, I get it viscerally as well. I think that there are many things that would never be problems if there weren't consequences for someone that one knows or for oneself. I watch movies where there's a car chase and all I see is how much the working people in the shot will have lost, perhaps their entire livlihood. But, most people even my age just see the chase. I have always been a bit sensitive to other people's feelings, more than most. So, it made me laugh when you said you weren't trying to make her (your subject) happy because that's so alien to my own way of looking at things that I never would have conceived of it as a possible reaction! I worry a lot about how people feel, sometimes way too much. It's a tough job but somebody's got to do it... especially these days when it's not even considered the 'right' thing. I think brattiness as a way of life may be a social phenomenon which is in reaction to how many shoulds and musts we all live with, with very little tangible reward for being kind or polite. Most people these days seem to see being polite as ridiculous and I think that stems from the chaotic way the world is experienced by most people now. The things which were 'stable' in my childhood were often just a shared fantasy and when they fell apart to show the true state of affairs, they weren't replaced by anything better. What I call brattiness seems to give people a way to navigate the social/political chaos we all live in.
Lol... I can get like this - someone stop me before I continue philosophizing!
|
|
|
|
01/21/2004 06:11:31 PM · #46 |
With my Nikon 4500, it easy taking voyeur shots! That's because it hardly looks like a camera when I hold it down in front of my stomach, staring down into the lcd, while the lens is pointing towards the subject. The trick is: act confused, frown, pretend like your solving an equation on a hand held pc or something while you're actually snapping pictures of whoever. If you act confused and stupid enough, they'll actually look at you, not because they think your photographing them, but because they're curious as to what the hell you might be doing. That's when it looks like they're actually posing for you! I just put up three entries to illustrate my point, all taken in Europe this summer:
   |
|
|
|
01/21/2004 06:14:51 PM · #47 |
I don't know labuda, in shots 1 and 3 they look like they might have an idea you're putting them on :D
|
|
|
|
01/21/2004 06:16:56 PM · #48 |
Ever since I've been "into" photography I've had a terrible time taking photos of strangers unless I was far away from them. This week for my portrait class, however, the assignment is to take environmental portraits- people in their own element. I'm amazed how willing folks are if you tell them you have an assignment for a photography class, then show them the shots after you take them! And of course thank them profusely :-)
|
|
