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08/13/2009 03:48:37 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by Tom:
Update: Not much new has happened since I met with my teacher on Monday, when he said a deadline is a deadline, sooo I got an F. Fantastic.
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Well, that just sucks.
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08/13/2009 04:00:05 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by Tom:
Update: Not much new has happened since I met with my teacher on Monday, when he said a deadline is a deadline, sooo I got an F. Fantastic. |
Thanks for the update Tom.
Sorry about the class situation.
Hope you're able to get a hold of the detective and maybe work something out.
Good to hear the victim is improving. |
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08/13/2009 05:14:58 PM · #78 |
1. You should never have agreed to give them your memory card. Copies yes, but not the cards themselves.
2. You will never see the card again. Ever.
3. You will never be compensated for its cost either.
4. Most likely the card and photos will never be used as evidence because the case will never go to trial.
5. Your professor is a lazy butt-head. (IMO very common among educators)
6. JulietNN was rude and insensitive. (nothing new there)
The memory card was your personal property. As an American citizen you and your property are protected by constitutional rights. If they take your property by force without a court order, then they are committing a criminal act.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that you shouldn't cooperate with the authorities. You should. It's the right thing to do. However, many "authorities" behave as if their authority and power is limitless and they routinely ignore and trample all over the rights of others. It's your moral and civil duty as an American to fight that.
Sorry about the F in your class.
Look on the bright side. At least you'll know better next time. :)
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08/13/2009 05:24:24 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by Mick:
1. You should never have agreed to give them your memory card. Copies yes, but not the cards themselves.
2. You will never see the card again. Ever.
3. You will never be compensated for its cost either.
4. Most likely the card and photos will never be used as evidence because the case will never go to trial.
5. Your professor is a lazy butt-head. (IMO very common among educators)
6. JulietNN was rude and insensitive. (nothing new there)
The memory card was your personal property. As an American citizen you and your property are protected by constitutional rights. If they take your property by force without a court order, then they are committing a criminal act.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that you shouldn't cooperate with the authorities. You should. It's the right thing to do. However, many "authorities" behave as if their authority and power is limitless and they routinely ignore and trample all over the rights of others. It's your moral and civil duty as an American to fight that.
Sorry about the F in your class.
Look on the bright side. At least you'll know better next time. :) |
I agree. especially with 5&6
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08/13/2009 06:44:34 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by Tom:
Update: Not much new has happened since I met with my teacher on Monday, when he said a deadline is a deadline, sooo I got an F. Fantastic.
I've been calling the LAPD all week, but the detective who took my 8-Gig cards doesn't work until 6pm, and by that time all the operators have gone home so there's no way to reach him. They've also been having phone issues all week, so the direct number to his desk isn't working. In summary, I haven't been able to speak to him yet to get copies of my photos.
The Guardian Angel who was sent to the ER is doing much better, and is already starting to speak a little. :) |
Regarding the situation with the professor, you need to remember that you are paying a butt-load of money to attend school. The school works for you! If the professor is unwilling to accept that circumstances beyond your control played into this, it's time to start working your way up the food chain. Go to the department chair and explain the situation. Go to the dean of the school and get an appointment, then explain the situation to him/her as well. If you still aren't met with satisfaction, get a Vice-President, or even the President him/herself. If necessary, politely remind them that you are a paying customer and that you are dissatisfied with the way this was handled.
Stress that you are not looking for a "freebie" grade. You did the work, but circumstances occurred which prevented you from turning it in. You said you had an evidence receipt, right? Give them that. Ask them to work with you to come up with a solution that will please everyone. Perhaps time to re-shoot something. Perhaps the school can place a call to the police and ask if they can provide copies of your photos (large schools often have a surprising amount of sway in their towns - and if not the school itself, then the administrators may have connections they can use).
If it were me, I wouldn't just accept an F and drop it. I'd be knocking on doors and talking to folks at school. And if the polite, friendly road fails - well, than I'd start being very vocal about the whole thing to, say, the local and school media. :-)
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08/13/2009 06:45:47 PM · #81 |
| I have read this entire thread and I have to say that I am shocked. The rude ones here are NOT Juliet and Ivo. They seem to be the voices of reason. How much is a single life worth? Does that change if its someone you know personally? |
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08/13/2009 07:23:56 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by BAMartin:
I have read this entire thread and I have to say that I am shocked. The rude ones here are NOT Juliet and Ivo. They seem to be the voices of reason. How much is a single life worth? Does that change if its someone you know personally? |
Wait a minute! Nobody has said that the police shouldn't have had access to the images, it's just that nobody involved either directly (the cops) or tangentially (the professor) seems to give a shit about this guy who unquestioningly threw his course grade out the window to do his best at doing the right thing under the circumstances.
Why shouldn't there be some understanding and hard line explanations of what to do the next time?
We as fellow photographers have all learned a thing or two out of the OP's trials, and it sure seems that he's going to suffer for others the whole way across the board.
THAT'S NOT RIGHT!!!!
You guys want to talk about doing the right thing, that street goes BOTH ways! Where is the proper thing being done on any level by the parties involved WHO ALL KNOW BETTER!?!?!?!?
It's not like either the prof or the cops are looking to help this guy out.
And I definitely agree with Brent, though he el;aborated and made much more clear what I had alluded to before.....go over this asshole prof's head.
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08/13/2009 07:25:45 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by dknourek:
Go ahead and flame me but I agree 100% with Juliet and Ivo. This shouldn't eve be a debate, how would you feel Tom if you were in the other guy's shoes right about now?
The other mans life and prosecution of his assailant/murderer which ever may be the case, FAR outweigh your grade and if your prof cant see the value in that then he should be removed from his position! |
I'm just curious.. For those who hold this opinion.. Lets say Tom is your son.. And you're paying lets say around $40,000 a year for him to attend college.. Knowing now that he's gotten an F on this project, which was referred to already as his "little school project", and also knowing that all he could have done was take it home, burn the images onto a disc then go to the police station and hand it over, would you have told your kid to do the same thing.. Remember, your footing the bill for his tuition, and it's also his future.. Would you be jumping down your kids throat knowing that he's risking getting an "F" in one of his college classes just to hand it over right at that exact moment.. There would have been NO HARM in him taking the card home & burning it to a disc.. My dad's a cop..(just retired) I ASKED...
Please note, I'm not saying you are wrong for your opinion.. I'm just wondering.. If it was your kid, and it was his school project that he was risking a failing grade on.. Wouldn't you have preferred he just give the images to the detectives after he copied them????
I seriously dont think TOM is advocating NOT helping victims... I think he was just trying to maybe get some advice from what he though might have been some older & wiser photographers.. Little did he know the only lesson he's learned is to NOT ask anything on this website for fear of the lynching he clearly recvd...
Message edited by author 2009-08-13 19:27:03. |
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08/13/2009 07:26:20 PM · #84 |
Not trying to be a devil's advocate or anything, but I can't find any information about this alleged incident. I've looked on the local newspaper sites and the LAPD police news link: //www.lapdonline.org/newsroom.
Does anyone have any more information on this incident? I would have thought this would have received at least a little publicity! |
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08/13/2009 07:39:32 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
what I had alluded to before.....go over this asshole prof's head. |
And when all else fails, go the vulgar name-calling route.
Tom, thank you for continuing to keep us posted on this incident. I hope it does turn out in your favor after more negotiations. I have a feeling you will know best how to handle this after you get your cards returned from the LAPD.
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08/13/2009 07:42:29 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by rodneyg:
Not trying to be a devil's advocate or anything, but I can't find any information about this alleged incident. I've looked on the local newspaper sites and the LAPD police news link: //www.lapdonline.org/newsroom.
Does anyone have any more information on this incident? I would have thought this would have received at least a little publicity! |
It's LA. They probably have a dozen of these kinds of incidents daily. Sadly, probably not newsworthy since the guy lived. |
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08/13/2009 07:44:27 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
It's LA. They probably have a dozen of these kinds of incidents daily. Sadly, probably not newsworthy since the guy lived. |
isn't that the truth.. |
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08/13/2009 08:20:25 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
what I had alluded to before.....go over this asshole prof's head. |
Originally posted by sfalice:
And when all else fails, go the vulgar name-calling route. |
Oh, please!
Save the holier than thou attitude for someone who cares.
ETA: What's more vulgar than this prof's behavior?
My wife ended up taking 20 credits her senior year because of an ASSHOLE like this guy. He felt that there was no place for a woman in the Penn State engineering program, refused to ever meet with her, or help her, and consequently flunked her for the semester in his course.
This was a student who won a scholarship her first two years because of a 4.0 GPA, and was maintaining it right up to this course. She did finish out the rest of her courses with the same 4.0 work she had been doing all along.
Oh....and this asshole ran the other woman out of the program entirely.
These little Napoleans that get their rocks off wielding power in unreasonable and uncaring ways need to be brought up short and confronted.
Message edited by author 2009-08-13 20:21:40.
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08/13/2009 08:40:13 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by Tom:
I've been shooting the Guardian Angels for the past month, as they train and patrol the streets of LA. It's for a major school assignment, and my pictures thus far have been awesome. |
Why do you not have a month's worth of pictures on your computer to turn in? The only thing that should be missing from your project is the stuff shot from the night of the fight. I can't believe that you would have had the whole assignment on your cards alone, if so, sucks to be you.
Good luck on getting your cards back. |
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08/13/2009 08:55:01 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
what I had alluded to before.....go over this asshole prof's head. |
Originally posted by sfalice:
And when all else fails, go the vulgar name-calling route. |
Oh, please!
Save the holier than thou attitude for someone who cares.
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My goodness,
Someone needs a Thesaurus!
(And I now bow out of this discussion)
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08/13/2009 09:25:33 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by kandykarml:
Originally posted by dknourek:
Go ahead and flame me but I agree 100% with Juliet and Ivo. This shouldn't eve be a debate, how would you feel Tom if you were in the other guy's shoes right about now?
The other mans life and prosecution of his assailant/murderer which ever may be the case, FAR outweigh your grade and if your prof cant see the value in that then he should be removed from his position! |
I'm just curious.. For those who hold this opinion.. Lets say Tom is your son.. And you're paying lets say around $40,000 a year for him to attend college.. Knowing now that he's gotten an F on this project, which was referred to already as his "little school project", and also knowing that all he could have done was take it home, burn the images onto a disc then go to the police station and hand it over, would you have told your kid to do the same thing.. Remember, your footing the bill for his tuition, and it's also his future.. Would you be jumping down your kids throat knowing that he's risking getting an "F" in one of his college classes just to hand it over right at that exact moment.. There would have been NO HARM in him taking the card home & burning it to a disc.. My dad's a cop..(just retired) I ASKED...
Please note, I'm not saying you are wrong for your opinion.. I'm just wondering.. If it was your kid, and it was his school project that he was risking a failing grade on.. Wouldn't you have preferred he just give the images to the detectives after he copied them????
I seriously dont think TOM is advocating NOT helping victims... I think he was just trying to maybe get some advice from what he though might have been some older & wiser photographers.. Little did he know the only lesson he's learned is to NOT ask anything on this website for fear of the lynching he clearly recvd... |
I will jump into the bucket of fire and get flamed some more.
If my child had told me this story, I gotta say, I would be proud of her/him for turning over the card and doing what I call the greater good. If I have to eat money for it, then so be it, but my kid did what was 'right' and did it without question. Doestn matter what the photographer rights are, if she/he did it to put some viscous person behind bars, that is worth the money
Then I would go to the Professor and kick languages with him, If the whole tally of his two month project rested on 1 nights subject, which seems very odd.
I personally can not understand how a 2 month project can all hinge on 1 nights video and all your education is now down the drain because of it, from what I understand you are saying that over one hundred thousand dollars rests on this grade?/ Sounds odd? but what do I know?
But in saying that, I would also go above his head, and his head and his head till I got an answer.
So fight it Tom, if you have a leg to stand on, then common sense will prevail
Message edited by author 2009-08-13 21:47:44. |
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08/13/2009 09:41:43 PM · #92 |
Where on earth are you people getting the idea that one F on a project destroys somebodies degree? Hell I had whole courses I didn't even bother to attend and still manged to get a degree and a pretty good job to, after that first job noone ever cared what my grades were in school. So,one F out of 120 credits is like a 3.98 instead of a 4.0, Whats the problem exactly?
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08/13/2009 09:51:13 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by jhomrighaus:
Where on earth are you people getting the idea that one F on a project destroys somebodies degree? Hell I had whole courses I didn't even bother to attend and still manged to get a degree and a pretty good job to, after that first job noone ever cared what my grades were in school. So,one F out of 120 credits is like a 3.98 instead of a 4.0, Whats the problem exactly? |
Well, that wasn't the point I was trying to make.. I think your attitude towards your degree is similar to most, but some may not feel that way..
I wonder where on earth people are getting the idea though that by turning in this card that very second in some way has solved this crime as if the police had no other means of obtaining any evidence against the suspects.. And then, where on earth are people getting the idea that if he took the card home, brought it back to the detectives an hour later, that would have some how DESTROYED any chance of prosecuting these criminals.. I mean really.. It's either one end of the spectrum or the other.. |
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08/13/2009 09:58:26 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
My goodness,
Someone needs a Thesaurus!
(And I now bow out of this discussion) |
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the couple that I have floating around the house, along with dictionaries and other reference books.
Perhaps in your vast knowledge, you could impart to this woefully inadequate troglodyte a word that embodies the effect and depth of meaning of the word "asshole" when used in a manner to describe the type of person who has the complete lack of concern or consideration for this young man who screwed up by doing the right thing.
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08/13/2009 09:59:28 PM · #95 |
turning in the card unedited gives them a lot more power than if it was taken home and burnt onto a CD that was then given to the police.
in downloading that file , you could change the peoples faces to someone else's. delete some pictures, add something to the pics.
that is chain of evidence. |
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08/13/2009 10:02:26 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by jhomrighaus:
Where on earth are you people getting the idea that one F on a project destroys somebodies degree? Hell I had whole courses I didn't even bother to attend and still manged to get a degree and a pretty good job to, after that first job noone ever cared what my grades were in school. So,one F out of 120 credits is like a 3.98 instead of a 4.0, Whats the problem exactly? |
Originally posted by kandykarml:
I wonder where on earth people are getting the idea though that by turning in this card that very second in some way has solved this crime as if the police had no other means of obtaining any evidence against the suspects.. And then, where on earth are people getting the idea that if he took the card home, brought it back to the detectives an hour later, that would have some how DESTROYED any chance of prosecuting these criminals.. I mean really.. It's either one end of the spectrum or the other.. |
That's a terrific idea, BUT.....at 4:00 A.M., at the scene, in a decidedly strange and possibly frightening situation, HOW was he supposed to acquire this knowledge?
That's my point......this young man did the right thing, at the time, based on his knowledge and understanding, he was led to believe that possibly his images could help the very people whom he was spending time with, and therefore thought first and foremost of doing what seemed like a natural good thing.
Kind of brings to mind the old saw "No good deed goes unpunished".
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08/13/2009 10:04:15 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by Tom:
Update: Not much new has happened since I met with my teacher on Monday, when he said a deadline is a deadline, sooo I got an F. Fantastic.
I've been calling the LAPD all week, but the detective who took my 8-Gig cards doesn't work until 6pm, and by that time all the operators have gone home so there's no way to reach him. They've also been having phone issues all week, so the direct number to his desk isn't working. In summary, I haven't been able to speak to him yet to get copies of my photos.
The Guardian Angel who was sent to the ER is doing much better, and is already starting to speak a little. :) |
Talk to the Dean of Students.
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08/13/2009 10:08:47 PM · #98 |
Well Tom, its sad to hear of the way the event has unraveled and in some way its not to be expected.
This is a classic case of getting caught between two entities that are exercising something called "Position Power". You were placed in a no win situation from the get go.
If I had the two evils to choose from, I'd rather be faced with the situation of challenging the prof than I would in challenging the authorities any day. Had you the knowledge that you could have exercised you rights to retain the memory cards and denied the police the opportunity to seize, you could have stood your ground. At 4 AM, and in the midst of a potentially volatile standoff, I fear the outcome, had you read the cops their Miranda Rights, would have been rather "precarious" to say the least. There is no way of knowing how the officers would have responded to your refusal. Though with some certainty I'd say they would have insisted they had acted in a "lawful manner" to gain possession of the cards, if you know what I mean.
The prof is being a dork and I'd much rather challenge him/her any day.
Is it reasonable to think the prof would have coached you on how to handle a situation of this sort during the course? If he had, well, then you have an issue. If he had not, then he has an issue. It is far more likely to believe he can be persuaded to be more malleable, after the fact, than the police would be. This is just a hunch, but from my experience, a reasonable conclusion.
So now, you been handed a fight to settle. If you are smart, you'll get a reasonable resolve. If you are content with the resolve as it is, then you were just snookered.
Good luck!
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08/13/2009 10:12:30 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
Well Tom, its sad to hear of the way the event has unraveled and in some way its not to be expected.
This is a classic case of getting caught between two entities that are exercising something called "Position Power". You were placed in a no win situation from the get go.
If I had the two evils to choose from, I'd rather be faced with the situation of challenging the prof than I would in challenging the authorities any day. Had you the knowledge that you could have exercised you rights to retain the memory cards and denied the police the opportunity to seize, you could have stood your ground. At 4 AM, and in the midst of a potentially volatile standoff, I fear the outcome, had you read the cops their Miranda Rights, would have been rather "precarious" to say the least. There is no way of knowing how the officers would have responded to your refusal. Though with some certainty I'd say they would have insisted they had acted in a "lawful manner" to gain possession of the cards, if you know what I mean.
The prof is being a dork and I'd much rather challenge him/her any day.
Is it reasonable to think the prof would have coached you on how to handle a situation of this sort during the course? If he had, well, then you have an issue. If he had not, then he has an issue. It is far more likely to believe he can be persuaded to be more malleable, after the fact, than the police would be. This is just a hunch, but from my experience, a reasonable conclusion.
So now, you been handed a fight to settle. If you are smart, you'll get a reasonable resolve. If you are content with the resolve as it is, then you were just snookered.
Good luck! |
Oh, suuuuuuuuuuure!
Just slide in at the end of a lively thread, and be all level & reasonable!
What fun is THAT??????
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08/13/2009 10:29:23 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by kandykarml:
Originally posted by dknourek:
Go ahead and flame me but I agree 100% with Juliet and Ivo. This shouldn't eve be a debate, how would you feel Tom if you were in the other guy's shoes right about now?
The other mans life and prosecution of his assailant/murderer which ever may be the case, FAR outweigh your grade and if your prof cant see the value in that then he should be removed from his position! |
I'm just curious.. For those who hold this opinion.. Lets say Tom is your son.. And you're paying lets say around $40,000 a year for him to attend college.. Knowing now that he's gotten an F on this project, which was referred to already as his "little school project", and also knowing that all he could have done was take it home, burn the images onto a disc then go to the police station and hand it over, would you have told your kid to do the same thing.. Remember, your footing the bill for his tuition, and it's also his future.. Would you be jumping down your kids throat knowing that he's risking getting an "F" in one of his college classes just to hand it over right at that exact moment.. There would have been NO HARM in him taking the card home & burning it to a disc.. My dad's a cop..(just retired) I ASKED...
Please note, I'm not saying you are wrong for your opinion.. I'm just wondering.. If it was your kid, and it was his school project that he was risking a failing grade on.. Wouldn't you have preferred he just give the images to the detectives after he copied them????
I seriously dont think TOM is advocating NOT helping victims... I think he was just trying to maybe get some advice from what he though might have been some older & wiser photographers.. Little did he know the only lesson he's learned is to NOT ask anything on this website for fear of the lynching he clearly recvd... |
I haven't read anything beyond this post yet as I really wanted to give my honest answer...
Although I do see where you were going with this may answer would be to my SON, I do actually have a son.. a little young at the moment but anyway I would have EXPECTED him to turn the card over immediately upon request, to me human life does NOT have a price. If this did happen and his Prof acted in the way that has happened here I would be going straight over his head and right to the top of the school and if I didn't get satisfaction then it would be lawyers and media that I would have involved. And this is my reasoning:
You say your dad is a cop and I think that's admirable and he says taking the cards home to copy is ok, but IMO in the courts there are far to many arseholes getting off on minor technicalities. I would have the cards handed over immediately upon request so there is NO doubt that the videos and or pictures could have been doctored or altered in ANY way. You say that he could have taken the cards home and copied the files, even if that was 100% ok to do, what IF something happened to the cards, they got lost, there was a static discharge that corrupted the data when the cards were plugged in to or taken ouf of the reader, or God forbid that Tom gets hit by a bus or something on the way back to the police station. IF there is a chance that something good can come out of handing the cards over to the police upon request to bring some ass hat to justice and put the SOB away then I am 100% without a doubt for it, despite the grades or the money.
I have put myself in danger before to help perfect strangers and I WILL NOT hesitate to do it again if the need arises. No Im not any kind of hero by far, nor do I want to be. I like the shadows I like staying in the background but if someone is in desperate need of help and there's something I can do, I don't think I just do... |
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